rusalk is interesting. I've never considered him as an interesting tech and sac outlet but you have a good point. I do have a few suggestions -- more sac outlets. Sac outlets are great protection against exile that some decks may run against key pieces of any karador deck. It also allows for stupid insane 'enters the graveyard'/etb effects. I've found that my deck went from 50-60% win/loss ratio to about 80% with a couple of REALLY good sac outlets. Vishkal is good. Admittedly good as a source of removal and sac outlets for stupid behavior. Altar of Dementia and Ashnod's are top level really good sac outlets in my opinion. They allow for really ridiculous behavior on the board. A non-mana cost sac outlet allows for turn 5-7 shenanigans such as all your land on board, board removal via exile, etc.
I run a few really fun cards that are common to some builds and uncommon to others.
IMO fierce empath is a selective recur-able creature tutor that can bring a plethora of threats onto the board. Yes, you normally select prime titan and other choices may not be near as valuable. However, you can recur it several methods(karmic guide/reveillark, karador, etc...). It can fetch an entire hand full of answers that can lead into something else entirely. A strategy that your opponent may not follow if they do not know your deck composition as well as you do.
I've used fierce empath for really round-about hijinks. Hes really as flexible as you want him to be.
I do however agree with you about sheoldred and I feel mikaeus is taking his place once it comes out.
I feel as though the calls on reaper and avenger of zendikar are not honestly justified. They are part of a auxilliary strategy in all honesty. With a good sac outlet on board, Reaper is targeted removal every turn. You can recur the creatures and thats not a big deal or tempo loss if your opponent has the threat on board that needs answered. This is even bigger with avenger of zendikar or fiend hunter, etc... creatures with valuable 'etb' or 'dies' effects that can be heavily abused. Avenger of zendikar doesn't need to grow to be threatening. He can grow slowly, bounce him and generate plenty of blockers and fodder for skullclamp. and other draw card tricks. Play attrition and or gravepact and it becomes even more dangerous.
I suppose this argument is moot considering there can be MANY different playstyles for karador.
TLDR: Utility creatures can suppress and win a game, just as another creature could generate raw power and overrun your opponent.
@ Rhapsody: Fiend Hunter and a sac outlet basically becomes a reusable creature exiling machine. Really helps get rid of juicy creatures when they have tokens to insulate against Fleshbag Marauder.
Unless I misunderstand, how do you figure that it will get rid of them permanently if you sac him ? He is only a temporary fix for removing enemy creatures or bounce for your own creatures with a sac outlet.
I'm looking at the list on the OP, and Empath is there. I cut him from my list because he was lackluster and 90% of the time he searched Primeval Titan. I replaced him with Wood Elves and I liked it a lot better.
I feel like that isn't the case. Just my opinion but empath searches for prime titan, sun titan, sheoldred, brutalizer exarch, rune-scarred demon, bloodgift demon , reaper from the abyss, either artifact collosus or eldrazzi -- Add possibly iona, avenger of zendikar, and sunblast angel as possible targets
I have mixed feeling with regards to alot of instants and non-recurrables with Karador.I've seen a large amount of karador decks running obscene amounts of instants and sorceries. I guess I just want to share a few bombs that I really like.
Puppeteer Clique -- Removes stuff from your enemies graveyard, swings them and removes them from game
Chainer -- Same reason but without haste
Bloodgift demon -- Phyrexian Arena on a stick
Reaper from the abyss -- Kill a creature per turn with a good sack outlet , great removal
Brutalizer Exarch -- Tutor or pesky enchant/land/artifact removal
Woodfall Primus -- pesky enchant/land/artifact removal
Tawnos's Coffin -- When one etb effect isn't enough.
Army of the Damned -- Great board presence , especially when combined with seedborne muse
Boseiju, Who Shelters All -- Don't want your 34 mana Exsanguinate or genesis wave being countered -- Control doesn't control anymore.
Creeping Renaissance -- Great way to beef your hand back up. Brings back any permanent type.
Gutter Grime -- Its a house, period.
Fiend Hunter -- Sac outlet + Fiend hunter = another ETB for one of your creatures with an amazing etb, or eldrazi removal.
Void Maw -- Amazing graveyard hate evasion and nice swinger.
Admonition Angel -- Exile your own etb creature, sac, reap more etb effects. , exile opponent's fatty or planeswalker
Roots of Life -- Devastating if you have Urborg. Recurrable with sun titan. Larger the game, the better it scales.
The new Mikaeus is amazing. Any creature with persist instantly becomes becomes an infinite combo on with a sac outlet. Fun for removing entire graveyards of creatures with Puppeteer clique.
The only sorcery and instants I usually run in my deck are token producers(worm harvest, army of the damned), ramp( explosive veg, etc ..), tutors( vampiric, demonic, diabolic, etc) and black sun zenith. I find that keeping a necroplasm around nullifies the threat of token decks, end of turn destroying all tokens. The only board wipe needed is a good black sun zenith or sunblast angel if you run a seedborne muse. Enchantments are a different story. My local meta doesn't run a whole lot of enchantment removal and even if they do , I try to keep to 3 cmc or fewer for suntitan to recur.
I don't feel like graveyard hate devastates me unless I'm running mesmeric orb or dredge. Often I can replay the combos I'm already using while generating enough creatures and effects to keep my opponents busy. I've also found that not tutoring all my threats from my library minimizes my threat from graveyard hate while keeping my board presence from degrading. I honestly think this deck is one that benefits from tons of sac outlets and while birthpod is a bomb, its not good enough.
That last statement might be enough to start a fight or two but I've played it extensively and while it is 'nice', there so much more you can do with ashnod's or phyrexian altar.
Personally, I think karador is a blast against control decks. Scares the hell out of them
I run a few really fun cards that are common to some builds and uncommon to others.
Fierce Empath
Void Maw
Beseech the Queen
Profane Command
Necroplasm
Chainer, Dementia Master
Dust Elemental
Puppeteer Clique
Avenger of Zendikar
Gutter Grime
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Brutalizer Exarch
Primal Command
Necrotic Sliver
Harmonic Sliver
Creeping Renaissance
I've used fierce empath for really round-about hijinks. Hes really as flexible as you want him to be.
I do however agree with you about sheoldred and I feel mikaeus is taking his place once it comes out.
I feel as though the calls on reaper and avenger of zendikar are not honestly justified. They are part of a auxilliary strategy in all honesty. With a good sac outlet on board, Reaper is targeted removal every turn. You can recur the creatures and thats not a big deal or tempo loss if your opponent has the threat on board that needs answered. This is even bigger with avenger of zendikar or fiend hunter, etc... creatures with valuable 'etb' or 'dies' effects that can be heavily abused. Avenger of zendikar doesn't need to grow to be threatening. He can grow slowly, bounce him and generate plenty of blockers and fodder for skullclamp. and other draw card tricks. Play attrition and or gravepact and it becomes even more dangerous.
I suppose this argument is moot considering there can be MANY different playstyles for karador.
TLDR: Utility creatures can suppress and win a game, just as another creature could generate raw power and overrun your opponent.
Unless I misunderstand, how do you figure that it will get rid of them permanently if you sac him ? He is only a temporary fix for removing enemy creatures or bounce for your own creatures with a sac outlet.
Qasali Pridemage
Void Maw
Puppeteer Clique
Wood Elves
Nezumi Graverobber
Primeval Titan
Bloodgift Demon
Graveborn Muse
Survival of the Fittest
Gutter Grime
Boseiju(you are running quite a few sorceries and instants)
Vampiric Tutor
Eldamiri's Call
Beseech the Queen
Genesis Wave
Army of the Damned
Any of the 'Sun's Zenith'
MTGVault Karador by Poobles is the deck I run
I feel like that isn't the case. Just my opinion but empath searches for prime titan, sun titan, sheoldred, brutalizer exarch, rune-scarred demon, bloodgift demon , reaper from the abyss, either artifact collosus or eldrazzi -- Add possibly iona, avenger of zendikar, and sunblast angel as possible targets
Puppeteer Clique -- Removes stuff from your enemies graveyard, swings them and removes them from game
Chainer -- Same reason but without haste
Bloodgift demon -- Phyrexian Arena on a stick
Reaper from the abyss -- Kill a creature per turn with a good sack outlet , great removal
Brutalizer Exarch -- Tutor or pesky enchant/land/artifact removal
Woodfall Primus -- pesky enchant/land/artifact removal
Tawnos's Coffin -- When one etb effect isn't enough.
Army of the Damned -- Great board presence , especially when combined with seedborne muse
Boseiju, Who Shelters All -- Don't want your 34 mana Exsanguinate or genesis wave being countered -- Control doesn't control anymore.
Creeping Renaissance -- Great way to beef your hand back up. Brings back any permanent type.
Gutter Grime -- Its a house, period.
Fiend Hunter -- Sac outlet + Fiend hunter = another ETB for one of your creatures with an amazing etb, or eldrazi removal.
Void Maw -- Amazing graveyard hate evasion and nice swinger.
Admonition Angel -- Exile your own etb creature, sac, reap more etb effects. , exile opponent's fatty or planeswalker
Roots of Life -- Devastating if you have Urborg. Recurrable with sun titan. Larger the game, the better it scales.
The new Mikaeus is amazing. Any creature with persist instantly becomes becomes an infinite combo on with a sac outlet. Fun for removing entire graveyards of creatures with Puppeteer clique.
The only sorcery and instants I usually run in my deck are token producers(worm harvest, army of the damned), ramp( explosive veg, etc ..), tutors( vampiric, demonic, diabolic, etc) and black sun zenith. I find that keeping a necroplasm around nullifies the threat of token decks, end of turn destroying all tokens. The only board wipe needed is a good black sun zenith or sunblast angel if you run a seedborne muse. Enchantments are a different story. My local meta doesn't run a whole lot of enchantment removal and even if they do , I try to keep to 3 cmc or fewer for suntitan to recur.
I don't feel like graveyard hate devastates me unless I'm running mesmeric orb or dredge. Often I can replay the combos I'm already using while generating enough creatures and effects to keep my opponents busy. I've also found that not tutoring all my threats from my library minimizes my threat from graveyard hate while keeping my board presence from degrading. I honestly think this deck is one that benefits from tons of sac outlets and while birthpod is a bomb, its not good enough.
That last statement might be enough to start a fight or two but I've played it extensively and while it is 'nice', there so much more you can do with ashnod's or phyrexian altar.
Personally, I think karador is a blast against control decks. Scares the hell out of them
Thoughts?
I'm considering trying Defense of the Heart and Survival of the Fittest.