This is what I'm planning to run now that the bannings have been announced. It was almost card for card LSV's Tribal Zoo list (except the board), but now I'm going to tweak away. So far it's just swapping out the Nacatls, but I'm considering a few other changes, mainly the creature setup some more. I like Pridemages in the main, but there's more to it than that, I think. Maybe one main Teeg.
Also, would Figure of Destiny even be considered a decent Cat sub?
I just can't see why they would ban Wild Nacatl and NOT Tarmogoyf, who sees play not only in Zoo decks, but EVERYWHERE. Do players splash green for Wild Nacatl? No. But they do for Tarmogoyf.
Which is exactly why Goyf wasn't banned.
Face it, everyone: Tarmogoyf is nowhere near as efficient as Wild Nacatl, and this is coming from a Zoo player.
There's two ways to look at why it wasn't banned and both, sadly, have quite a bit of relevance:
The first is obviously the secondary market. Sorry, but if he's making the money, then he's staying right where he is. Most of the people begging and pleading for Goyf to be banned consist of people too broke to buy him and cram him into whatever deck they feel like splashing green for.
The second is hiding in the fact that people really don't read him well enough. Consider which of these scenarios is a scarier thought for your opponent while you play zoo:
Turn one G/x (R or W) dual, Nacatl go.
Opponent does land, go.
Turn two play third color land, Swing Nacatl for 3.
Or
Turn one G/x dual, go.
Opponent plays land, go.
Turn two play fetch, crack, Goyf go.
at BEST you have to assume that your opponent will play two 1cc different spell types on top of you adding another to that for a 4/5 swing on turn 3, but how often do you REALLY think that will happen? Plus, I don't know, how about those spells you're hoping they play end up being ANY relevant removal or enough burn to kill.
Face it- Tarmogoyf was NEVER the problem. Wild Nacatl was the right choice.
So, this is me posting my first EDH list, and I've decided to build it mostly from scratch and other ideas after just netdecking most everything else card for card. Building Ghave seemed like a fun change since I've tried to build a different theme out of my other decks: Reanimator, Mono Green, Draw-Control and Punisher/Hate, so I figured that a Token deck would be fun, especially since I don't see myself building it for standard anytime soon. However, as this is the most I've committed to building on my own, I could use some help trimming the list I have right now.
So, without further ado, here's Ghave, Guru of Dice so far:
So, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of room for improvement. My ideas for now:
-Despite the current pieces, I don't want it to be too combo heavy- I want to have several different ways to play this deck out.
-Obviously the deck needs more sweepers and possibly less ramp/tutors/Spot Removal. Graveyard hate as well?
-I'm debating on whether I want to just create tokens from all over the place, or want to make a horde of specific tokens (Saprolings, for example).
That being said, these are the cards that I've been considering for additions; some of which are food for thought, some are necessities:
On top of all of this, I do have one limitation: Budget. I know you're looking at this list and thinking why that would be an issue, and it's because I already own most of these cards; I'm taking apart a couple decks to rebuild this one as I've gotten bored of the others. The shocklands are pretty much the highest I'll go for now, so no rev. duals, etc.
Anyway, any help is appreciated, and thanks in Advance!
I'd like to get input on how i can fix my main board and my sideboard for a specific metagame. SOLAR FLARE MIRROR +2 Dissipate, +4 Mental Misstep, +2 nihil spellbomb, +2 Surgical extraction,
-2 doom blade, -3 day of judgment, -1 elesh norn, grand cenobite, -1 timely reinforcements, -3 think twice
I'm confused, here: Why are you boarding in missteps when your targets in the mirror is based solely on what they board in? Flare runs no 1cc spells, so it's completely based on getting their Extractions, bombs and their own missteps. I could understand a couple, but you wouldn't need a full grip in this situation.
It feels like your board strategy against the mirror is based on people playing a near-exact mirror to yours. Don't board out your doom blades. It's going to be a long, slow battle of attrition.
Playing Tempered Steel: Treat it like RDW. Play Ratchet Bombs and pray that you can stabilize quickly or they keep a slower hand.
UB Control wasn't working. So, after a good round of grinding and testing, I went with Solar Flare.
I'm gonna do this one by category, so I can get a better rundown, and I think my build needs a bit of explanation. It starts by being an offshoot of Nick Spagnolo's Build:
I'm going with 25 lands. It isn't too much of a control-type to where I need to go with the full 26. White is the greediest color, so it needs the most support outside of the fastlands.
I don't think Grave Titan fits in here for right now, and this is where Nick and I start to differ. I think the meta, no matter what, will still be aggro-heavy. I might consider a Grave Titan in the board for later. Also, I'd rather keep a second Snapcaster in main rather than just relying on one main with an extra in the board; I'd almost always see him boarded in.
I still don't think she's good enough for a 4-of, but 3 will work for now.
From what I've seen with other decks, I'm liking Batterskull over Wurmcoils. He drops sooner, has extra utility, and has the same purpose as Wurmcoil. I keep the bigger guys in the board just in case.
...Okay, at this point I think I'm pretty set. Beyond here is where everything can differ. For starters, my plan is to expect aggro and to start against it, including a few stops that Spagnolo and I agree with in the main rather than start on side. We just disagree with the numbers.
These are set in stone. Some people still debate leaving counters in, and rather keep focus on removal. I disagree- Leaks are still too valuable to pass up.
I think this is enough to hold game 1 down without being too centered around aggro. They're all staples in Flare; it's just a matter of numbers. If nothing else, most of these would be adjusted by the board.
In my testing so far, this deck wrecks Pod and Tezzeret. It's stabilized quickly against Tempered Steel, and I'm still waiting on a test vs. RDW. The mirror is still a crapshoot because it always plays to a grind until someone gets the lucky break. I think I'm pretty sound with the Deck, though I'm still tweaking the sideboard daily. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Several people here have been giving grief over the Quarters in main, but with every test I've been going over, it's pretty clear that Inkmoth Nexus will be in nearly every deck. In most situations, I've been completely comfortable with trading it for a basic, since I'll usually have the mana open to counter/remove whatever else they're going for.
Also, I think most decks will have a good enough artifact to Main at least one Sabotage.
In all, I'm REALLY liking this deck, and I can't wait to swap out all of the proxies for some real paper.
Anyway, I want to start off by saying I absolutely love the ideas that you put into your decks. I built my Teysa deck as an offshoot of yours, and it's still my favorite one to play.
That being said, I have two questions about this deck, as it is also one I'm building using your ideas, with a couple tweaks:
1) It doesn't feel like you're putting much focus into Kaalia itself, rather than just using her colors, so how do you feel in using Tariel, Reckoner of Souls instead? I know you've built your lore around miss Vast, but it feels like Tariel actually plays better to the theme of the deck in punishing, i.e. using your opponent's creatures to beat them instead.
2) If you're going to stick with Kaalia, Rakdos the Defiler NEEDS to be in this deck. If you can get him in your hand with a sac outlet and hand recursion, he can decimate opponent's boards, mainly because his ability doesn't trigger for yourself; he comes out attacking as a part of Kaalia's ability, not as a declared attacker, so you lose nothing in the process.
Just some food for thought, take with it what you will. Keep building awesome decks!
Also, would Figure of Destiny even be considered a decent Cat sub?
2 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
4 Tribal Flames
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sacred Ground
1 Negate
2 Ancient Gridge
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ranger of Eos
2 Qasali Pridemage
Clearly this is just my area, but Punishing fire was NEVER played in Zoo around here. I found it more in Jund/Grixis and Pyromancer decks.
Which is exactly why Goyf wasn't banned.
Face it, everyone: Tarmogoyf is nowhere near as efficient as Wild Nacatl, and this is coming from a Zoo player.
There's two ways to look at why it wasn't banned and both, sadly, have quite a bit of relevance:
The first is obviously the secondary market. Sorry, but if he's making the money, then he's staying right where he is. Most of the people begging and pleading for Goyf to be banned consist of people too broke to buy him and cram him into whatever deck they feel like splashing green for.
The second is hiding in the fact that people really don't read him well enough. Consider which of these scenarios is a scarier thought for your opponent while you play zoo:
Turn one G/x (R or W) dual, Nacatl go.
Opponent does land, go.
Turn two play third color land, Swing Nacatl for 3.
Or
Turn one G/x dual, go.
Opponent plays land, go.
Turn two play fetch, crack, Goyf go.
at BEST you have to assume that your opponent will play two 1cc different spell types on top of you adding another to that for a 4/5 swing on turn 3, but how often do you REALLY think that will happen? Plus, I don't know, how about those spells you're hoping they play end up being ANY relevant removal or enough burn to kill.
Face it- Tarmogoyf was NEVER the problem. Wild Nacatl was the right choice.
So, without further ado, here's Ghave, Guru of Dice so far:
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Lands (36):
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Brushland
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Marsh Flats
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Plains
1 Sunpetal Grove
3 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery
Creatures (19):
1 Academy Rector
1 Acidic Slime
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Creakwood Liege
1 Fertilid
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Juniper Order Ranger
1 Mycoloth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Twilight Drover
1 Verdant Force
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Liliana Vess
Enchantments (17):
1 Attrition
1 Aura Shards
1 Awakening Zone
1 Bitterblossom
1 Debtor's Knell
1 Doubling Season
1 Earthcraft
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Grave Pact
1 Intangible Virtue
1 Leyline of the Meek
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Night Soil
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Parallel Lives
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Privileged Position
Artifacts (6):
1 Blade of the Bloodchief
1 Contagion Engine
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sol Ring
1 Throne of Geth
Instants/Sorceries (19):
1 Cultivate
1 Demonic Intent
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mortify
1 Path to Exile
1 Putrefy
1 Rampant Growth
1 Return to Dust
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unburial Rites
1 Unmake
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
So, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of room for improvement. My ideas for now:
-Despite the current pieces, I don't want it to be too combo heavy- I want to have several different ways to play this deck out.
-Obviously the deck needs more sweepers and possibly less ramp/tutors/Spot Removal. Graveyard hate as well?
-I'm debating on whether I want to just create tokens from all over the place, or want to make a horde of specific tokens (Saprolings, for example).
That being said, these are the cards that I've been considering for additions; some of which are food for thought, some are necessities:
I'm sure there's plenty more to consider.
On top of all of this, I do have one limitation: Budget. I know you're looking at this list and thinking why that would be an issue, and it's because I already own most of these cards; I'm taking apart a couple decks to rebuild this one as I've gotten bored of the others. The shocklands are pretty much the highest I'll go for now, so no rev. duals, etc.
Anyway, any help is appreciated, and thanks in Advance!
I'm confused, here: Why are you boarding in missteps when your targets in the mirror is based solely on what they board in? Flare runs no 1cc spells, so it's completely based on getting their Extractions, bombs and their own missteps. I could understand a couple, but you wouldn't need a full grip in this situation.
It feels like your board strategy against the mirror is based on people playing a near-exact mirror to yours. Don't board out your doom blades. It's going to be a long, slow battle of attrition.
Playing Tempered Steel: Treat it like RDW. Play Ratchet Bombs and pray that you can stabilize quickly or they keep a slower hand.
Playing Pod: Don't worry, you'll wreck them.
I'm gonna do this one by category, so I can get a better rundown, and I think my build needs a bit of explanation. It starts by being an offshoot of Nick Spagnolo's Build:
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Seachrome Coast
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Swamp
4 Island
5 Plains
I'm going with 25 lands. It isn't too much of a control-type to where I need to go with the full 26. White is the greediest color, so it needs the most support outside of the fastlands.
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Sun Titan
1 Phantasmal Image
I don't think Grave Titan fits in here for right now, and this is where Nick and I start to differ. I think the meta, no matter what, will still be aggro-heavy. I might consider a Grave Titan in the board for later. Also, I'd rather keep a second Snapcaster in main rather than just relying on one main with an extra in the board; I'd almost always see him boarded in.
1 Batterskull
I still don't think she's good enough for a 4-of, but 3 will work for now.
From what I've seen with other decks, I'm liking Batterskull over Wurmcoils. He drops sooner, has extra utility, and has the same purpose as Wurmcoil. I keep the bigger guys in the board just in case.
...Okay, at this point I think I'm pretty set. Beyond here is where everything can differ. For starters, my plan is to expect aggro and to start against it, including a few stops that Spagnolo and I agree with in the main rather than start on side. We just disagree with the numbers.
First:
4 Mana Leak
3 Doom Blade
These are set in stone. Some people still debate leaving counters in, and rather keep focus on removal. I disagree- Leaks are still too valuable to pass up.
Other than that:
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Unburial Rites
2 Think Twice
2 Day of Judgment
I think this is enough to hold game 1 down without being too centered around aggro. They're all staples in Flare; it's just a matter of numbers. If nothing else, most of these would be adjusted by the board.
Speaking of which:
1 Gideon Jura
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Dissipate
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Memoricide
In my testing so far, this deck wrecks Pod and Tezzeret. It's stabilized quickly against Tempered Steel, and I'm still waiting on a test vs. RDW. The mirror is still a crapshoot because it always plays to a grind until someone gets the lucky break. I think I'm pretty sound with the Deck, though I'm still tweaking the sideboard daily. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
So, in case anyone wanted to look more in-depth with this, here's the deckstats
Most of the mirrors I've dealt with involve an Inkmoth race. It came down to countering everything else.
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Swamp
7 Island
Removal/Counters (15):
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Mana Leak
4 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Ponder
4 Think Twice
Utility Creatures (9):
2 Lantern Spirit
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Treasure Mage
4 Snapcaster Mage
Finishers (3):
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Liliana (1):
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grave Titan
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Surgical Extraction
Several people here have been giving grief over the Quarters in main, but with every test I've been going over, it's pretty clear that Inkmoth Nexus will be in nearly every deck. In most situations, I've been completely comfortable with trading it for a basic, since I'll usually have the mana open to counter/remove whatever else they're going for.
Also, I think most decks will have a good enough artifact to Main at least one Sabotage.
In all, I'm REALLY liking this deck, and I can't wait to swap out all of the proxies for some real paper.
Anyway, I want to start off by saying I absolutely love the ideas that you put into your decks. I built my Teysa deck as an offshoot of yours, and it's still my favorite one to play.
That being said, I have two questions about this deck, as it is also one I'm building using your ideas, with a couple tweaks:
1) It doesn't feel like you're putting much focus into Kaalia itself, rather than just using her colors, so how do you feel in using Tariel, Reckoner of Souls instead? I know you've built your lore around miss Vast, but it feels like Tariel actually plays better to the theme of the deck in punishing, i.e. using your opponent's creatures to beat them instead.
2) If you're going to stick with Kaalia, Rakdos the Defiler NEEDS to be in this deck. If you can get him in your hand with a sac outlet and hand recursion, he can decimate opponent's boards, mainly because his ability doesn't trigger for yourself; he comes out attacking as a part of Kaalia's ability, not as a declared attacker, so you lose nothing in the process.
Just some food for thought, take with it what you will. Keep building awesome decks!