MTG Salvation

Quote from SirFrancois »

So with the rising popularity of BW smallpox, I came to a realization, is there a way we can combine the best of both worlds with 8rack? possibly sacrifice some discard/removal for more recurring creatures and lingering souls? Basically attacking from multiple angles?

Somethings I feel we could add into 8 rack would be cards like
Flagstones
Bloodghast
Collected brutality
Lingering souls

With the heavy meta of tron and affinity and other misc decks with artifacts, maybe we can take wrench mind as a 2 of? for more of these cards?

Quote from prismatic elf »

Quote from damagecase »

My two cents: First of all we need to define what "luck" is. For a quick and sloppy analysis we'll just associated it to randomness. Then good luck is having the randomness inexplicably tilt in your favor, bad luck is inexplicably against your interest. The randomness of a magic deck is significantly less than that of a deck of playing cards. So, even when putting two competing decks head to head, the amount randomness, purely in card draw would still be less than a deck of playing cards. Now there is another level of "luck" that is relevant and it comes in the form of meta gaming. Decks have good and bad matchups where a deck can be favored purely on design principle. Aggro is favored vs control but is not against tron type decks for example. Going into an unknown meta is a crap shoot. You can mitigate your chances by playing a tiered deck but ultimately until you familiarize yourself with the environment, it is significantly random.

Overall, I think people attribute way too much of the game to skill and ignore the luck aspect far too often because "being lucky" does very little to the ego...lol. Don't get me wrong: there is a significant amount of skill in the form of game intellect and moxie that the best players possess but ultimately a couple no land opening hands will end their day just as quickly as a novice.

I agree, I see it like this. You go to a 100 man tournament playing a control deck because aggro has been non existent in the meta, right call. Only 3 people show up playing aggro in that 100 man tournament, again verification you made the right call. Some how your first three Matchups are the Aggro players. I see this as unlucky not just a variance of chance. I guess a lot of this debate comes down to if you believe luck is something that can be measured or it is something more supernatural.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

These responses don't make a lot of sense. What does tapping out gain you? Remember, I have Wall to block for one turn, so Angler isn't even connecting until T5. Why open up that T3 to my outs? I didn't even add the two Gideon of the Trials copies which brick Angler forever and buy me even more time. Now we're up to about a 20% chance of me getting the out with no chance for the DS player to interact. By waiting, you only open yourself up to a topdecked Leak. SV into Leak doesn't even get there; you can actually still counter it with Spike-mode Denial! Is one extra swing on T5 worth opening yourself to that 20% chance of a blowout? The cost of waiting is a roughly 8% chance of a straight Leak topdeck.

Jamming Angler makes very little mathematical sense in this matchup unless you think the extra 5 damage on T5 is worth the extra 12% risk you open yourself to, AND if you think the T5 extra damage is more likely to win you the game than a safer T4 Denial-backup line. Those odds don't line up.

When I play Modern, I don't want to allow my opponent to play to their outs. I want those outs as improbable as possible. More than doubling the chance of their out from 2/25 to 1/5 is a needlessly risky play.

Quote from WarMachinePrime »

Quote from MemoryLapse »

Quote from WarMachinePrime »

Quote from MemoryLapse »

Quote from guntius »

Legend said it perfectly about the balance of the urza lands.

Memory lapse made a good point too about what people think when they hear "tron" deck, I agree that I don't think of e.tron or mono U tron either even though they both use the tron lands. I played mono U for a long time and assembling tron isn't top priority,its much slower.

Would tron be so hated if it wasn't for turn 3 karn? For the most part I feel that's what the issue is, not the lands themselves. Ugin, ulamog, emmy, all these huge threats are turn four or more.

Ban Karn and the deck changes from a polarized nightmare to a perfectly fair deck.
End result of this thread = BAN KARN!

I'll do it with a concurrent ban of Liliana of the Veil. Sounds good right? (I already know your answer)

Why bring up Liliana? We aren't even talking about that. Spam.

No need to play coy, you know what I'm asking. Would you agree to ban both Karn and LotV at the same time? If Karn is too oppressive as a possible turn 3 play then why isn't Lily too oppressive at a DEFINITE turn 3 play? Simple question and definitely in the bounds of the thread. I'm genuinely curious. Remember I LIKE 8rack and all its variants and still play my 8Rackdos deck on certain occasions. I hate Affinity but I'm not calling for a ban of anything in it. Heck Black has answers to planes walkers as well as discard. Try finding an answer to planeswalkers in colorless and about the only real answer are 7 cmc cards. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on Karn and move on.

Quote from WarMachinePrime »

Quote from MemoryLapse »

Quote from Stellan72 »

The critical detail there is that Aegraen was talking about Gx Tron, and you're talking about Eldrazi Tron. Completely missed the point.

agreed, no one is really complaining about etron. its Gx tron that is hated.

I feel the need to point out that there are 2 members just on this page of the thread that are complaining about E-Tron. (Look for the ones griping about Eldrazi Temple.)

I also find it amusing that Tron (all variants) has to wait until turn 3 to do its thing (Tron) and it gets called out when there are a few decks out there that can pull off a win by Turn 2 if the stars align.

Frankly I find one of the most "unfair" or "unfun" plays is from black on turn 1 on the play with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. Nothing like not even having a card on the board to respond and having your hand picked apart. But hey, its part of the game and I deal with it.

Quote from guntius »

I've said since the release of the new eldrazi's that they were to overpowered with temples and eyes, they banned the eye but it wasn't enough. The deck is a pain to beat soley because of temple, if they had to assemble Tron rather than hit a single temple they wouldn't be nearly as fast. Magic screwed up when they created the eldrazi's, didnt look at the big picture enough IDK.

People wouldn't hate tron so much right now either if it wasn't for temple, all the "tron" hate is actually temple hate.Eldrazi tron is actually eldrazi temple that happens to use tron lands as backup.

Eldrazi tron doesn't even care about land tutors, they want a temple in their opener.

Quote from xenob8 »

control could be made in different ways

discard, permission(counterspells), prison strategies, land destruction and mana denial
depending on the meta and the build turns has used all of these different ways to control the board while assembling the combo.

the ur with 4 bolts and 4 snapcaster is more focused on tempo. a ur version with 4 ssg and 4 cotv main is more a prisonish build.
the ub turns at gp vegas was more about discard and permission. in some metas turns plays a lot of spreading seas and ghost quarters in addition to gigadrowses and exhaustions and boomerangs to hit lands

i think we can agree that turn isn't a pure control deck but we should also agree that everything that is not a land or a combo piece is here to provide control elements, be it discard, prison, mana denial, tempo or whatever one prefers to play.
i don't know f that's enough to call turns a control deck but calling it a combo deck is wrong as well... the right definition is that turns decks have all these characteristics

Quote from 9talete9 »

I think the main reason is that is simple and very powerful. It give the impression that a plant can pilot it successfully and the loses tend to be miserable and the game are hopeless. I find that out by playing blue tron, sure is less powerful, but it have its good match up where you crush your opponent, but it looks like a deck that requires skill and give the impression that the game wasn't completely one sided, so the opponents don't get salty. Personally I know several guy who dislike "classic" tron but like blue tron.
The point is: people don't hate tron in particular, people hate deck that looks dumb and overpowered.