Uhm, no. Just as you wouldn't cast Wrath of God when you have a dominant creature board state, you're not gonna cast Armageddon if it doesn't hurt your opponents more than you, or you aren't setup for it. Your argument is ridiculous, and if you use MLD like that... well.. that's your problem.
"Hurting your opponents more than you" Is a tad bit different when talking lands or creatures.
How is my argument ridiculous when we are both arguing the same thing. All I said is that MLD is a card that is only played when it will guarantee you victory and doing so requires the removal of an opponents number of options.
A spiteful MLD when someone is struggling to get land will probably end up hurting the person who cast it more than the person who hasn't drawn that many lands yest.
Because lands are so important to how the game works it adds a level of complexity to when you use cards that remove all of them it also requires you not wanting to play everything else that is in your hand as well.
Which is a common misconception people seem to have about people who use those cards, we like casting all the other fun toys too.
No, but it does add more damage to this player who is stalling on lands when the geddon dude does it to stop the rest of the table. He walks away from that game not being able to do a single thing worthwhile. Yeah, it happens, its just that geddon really makes it even more painful.
Look, we all know that if you're playing commander competitively then none of these cards on Sheldon's list should be removed. But for friendly games, I can see some of them coming out. Some of them leave a bad taste in your mouth, whether or not you're playing friendly or competitive. I mean, I get in the mood where I want to play around and not be bothered by things such as Geddon or Humility. Sometimes I do want to just have fun and not have to think to hard on the game. Just remember, I'm not advocating Menery's list at all, just playing devil's advocate (poorly :p).
The person you are describing who would cast MLD on an opponent who only has 4 lands IS ALSO DESTROYING WHATEVER LAND HE HAS PULLED UP TO THAT POINT.
That person is not a smart player. Most people would rather utilize the resources they have while you are behind on the curve rather than reset the curve.
MLD is a last ditch card or a card that signifies that person can win very easily very shortly. NOT a willy nilly spiteful card.
While I agree to an extent, comparing Wrath of God and Armageddon is not really fair.
It is worlds easier to recover from your creatures getting destroyed than all of your lands, just based on how Magic has evolved as a game. The only two good ways to recover from Armageddon that I can think of are Crucible and LftL. But you can definitely pour out all of your creatures onto the field, have them be wiped, and still be in the position to win the game.
There's a ton more creature recursion than there is land recursion, plus, that whole argument is flawed because lands are resources, creatures are not. You can keep playing cards even if your creatures have died, you can't if your lands have.
You can't compare the two. That's all.
Every single negative you mention in that scenario also applies to the person casting the MLD. Yes the destruction to the opponent is larger but so are the risks to yourself if you misjudge something.
It is a bigger deal than any old Wrath effect because it is devastating to all players.
That is the nature of a game based around a bit of random chance. Getting mana ****ed isn't something that is just a part of EDH it is somethin that is core to MTG.
Also you having only 4 lands probably means the person is going to hold onto the MLD and play other stuff. It doesn't make sense to waste it on that state in the slightest.
Second, Armageddon is a turn 4 card. It's not uncommon for players to get stuck on land at that point.
Armageddon being a turn 4 card doesn't mean it gets played the instant the person with it has it and the mana that is as much suicide as the person who drops every land onto the field.
It is a board state card.
If you think your board is on the upper side you play the card and then fight out until someone wins it is not a dick move willy nilly I will destroy all the land cards card.
Seems like a flawed premise to me to be saying that a format-warping strategy should be accepted as fine just so that mono red can keep
pace or win games. Why should mono red be entitled to win games?
What I want people to realize is that just because you don't like a card doesn't mean it's bad to play it. Personally, I hate Warp World, and I even lost to it recently. But I'm not shouting from the rooftops to everyone willing to listen that it's a degenerate card and people shouldn't play it. That's reserved only for stuff that I think is truly harmful to the format. And the test for that is, do you have to adapt to this in order to have a chance? I think cards like Decree of Annihilation have such a dramatic impact that you can't really deal with them normally. So I think it's justified.
Playing a red deck the best option I have to let my stuff go off reliably that is on the board is to wipe the opponents source of activating it. Decree is unique because the cycling because it is one of the very few ways to dodge counters and other control methods.
Removing cards like that fundamentally weakens one side for the other is bad design pure and simple.
Armageddon being a white card it is flawed premise to assume that person will be able to deal with the lands but not the opponents board.
Also Mass LD in Red is one of the very few ways a mono Red deck has anyway of keeping up with pace Decree of Annihilation has won my Krenko more games than I can count.
These conversations remind me about pointless arguments people have about Smash Brothers. The reason being that game is designed with a plethora of stages and items and random elements that are filtered through the varied and disparate characters.
People then complain when you remove the varied stages and the random items and suddenly the character who runs the fastest happens to win the most......
Counter Measures are built into every color to help them facilitate and deal with the others eradicating those in favor of others is pointless because it just warps the game around the holes you create.
That all being said I only run Decree of Annihilation in terms of MLD because counter spells are fun and all but cycling into that is the BEST FEELING.
This guy would be my general if only he was useable.
For me it has to be Pontiff of Blight, I love everything about this guy his name, the abilities, that he is part of two amazing tribes for his color, the picture (looks like an MC who just won his rhyme battle dropping the mic), everything. It is a real shame we didn't get a single Extort creature that was legendary.
Often he is put forward as commander but he also fills a great role in the 99 I find. He is a strangely efficient way to get rid of pesky Indestructible Artifact Creatures (you can probably think of the one specifically). Or when paired with Liquimetal Coating he makes a very efficient creature remover that gets around a great deal of protection.
In decks where cheating creatures in is the play Hellkite Tyrant has always been an easy choice to me due the heavy artifact play in this format, also a win con.
I ran it in my Vorel deck at one point but when the time came to actually scry for 90 I felt like it was too much of a time commitment on my part so I removed it.
"Hurting your opponents more than you" Is a tad bit different when talking lands or creatures.
How is my argument ridiculous when we are both arguing the same thing. All I said is that MLD is a card that is only played when it will guarantee you victory and doing so requires the removal of an opponents number of options.
A spiteful MLD when someone is struggling to get land will probably end up hurting the person who cast it more than the person who hasn't drawn that many lands yest.
Because lands are so important to how the game works it adds a level of complexity to when you use cards that remove all of them it also requires you not wanting to play everything else that is in your hand as well.
Which is a common misconception people seem to have about people who use those cards, we like casting all the other fun toys too.
The person you are describing who would cast MLD on an opponent who only has 4 lands IS ALSO DESTROYING WHATEVER LAND HE HAS PULLED UP TO THAT POINT.
That person is not a smart player. Most people would rather utilize the resources they have while you are behind on the curve rather than reset the curve.
MLD is a last ditch card or a card that signifies that person can win very easily very shortly. NOT a willy nilly spiteful card.
Every single negative you mention in that scenario also applies to the person casting the MLD. Yes the destruction to the opponent is larger but so are the risks to yourself if you misjudge something.
It is a bigger deal than any old Wrath effect because it is devastating to all players.
That is the nature of a game based around a bit of random chance. Getting mana ****ed isn't something that is just a part of EDH it is somethin that is core to MTG.
Also you having only 4 lands probably means the person is going to hold onto the MLD and play other stuff. It doesn't make sense to waste it on that state in the slightest.
Armageddon being a turn 4 card doesn't mean it gets played the instant the person with it has it and the mana that is as much suicide as the person who drops every land onto the field.
It is a board state card.
If you think your board is on the upper side you play the card and then fight out until someone wins it is not a dick move willy nilly I will destroy all the land cards card.
Playing a red deck the best option I have to let my stuff go off reliably that is on the board is to wipe the opponents source of activating it. Decree is unique because the cycling because it is one of the very few ways to dodge counters and other control methods.
Removing cards like that fundamentally weakens one side for the other is bad design pure and simple.
Also Mass LD in Red is one of the very few ways a mono Red deck has anyway of keeping up with pace Decree of Annihilation has won my Krenko more games than I can count.
Or find ways to give opponents Immortal Coil then exile their yards.
People then complain when you remove the varied stages and the random items and suddenly the character who runs the fastest happens to win the most......
Counter Measures are built into every color to help them facilitate and deal with the others eradicating those in favor of others is pointless because it just warps the game around the holes you create.
That all being said I only run Decree of Annihilation in terms of MLD because counter spells are fun and all but cycling into that is the BEST FEELING.
For me it has to be Pontiff of Blight, I love everything about this guy his name, the abilities, that he is part of two amazing tribes for his color, the picture (looks like an MC who just won his rhyme battle dropping the mic), everything. It is a real shame we didn't get a single Extort creature that was legendary.
Often he is put forward as commander but he also fills a great role in the 99 I find. He is a strangely efficient way to get rid of pesky Indestructible Artifact Creatures (you can probably think of the one specifically). Or when paired with Liquimetal Coating he makes a very efficient creature remover that gets around a great deal of protection.