Maybe? I thought Storm, when it's triggered, aren't actually cast. So the benefit isn't much greater than someone running an aggressive deck like say... burn.
I dunno. I don't see very many Storm decks. Maybe I'm wrong.
It doesn't matter. Storm triggers off the number of spells cast prior in the same turn. The Storm copies don't have to trigger it. Every ritual and cantrip you cast to get your storm count up *does*, and that can make a huge difference in the number of spells you need to cast for lethal.
Based on what you've shared thus far, if your goal is just to have fun and be a Timmy, I'd recommend either Sigarda or Alesha for you. Which depends on how you'd rather play: Sigarda gives you access to better ramp and Emeria, the Sky Ruin and in general lets you play big dumb Angels and lots of recursion for your big dumb Angels (though I'd still go with s slight human subtheme for the lower end of your curve, both for tools and because that synergizes even better with Sigarda 2.0 than it would with Avacyn). Alesha's bodies tend to be smaller but she allows for a lot more value plays should you wish to go that route. Again, recursion abound. This makes them both quite resilient to hate without having to water down the strategy too much since the recursion's a big part of what you'd be doing anyway. Especially good since you dislike being put in Archenemy situations, though they might pop up anyway. Alesha should be a little better st flying under the radar if you avoid things like the aforementioned Master of Cruelties ploy as people will get leery if you start amassing Angels no matter how nonthreatening you're trying to be, but even in the instances where that does happen, White/Green's capable of enough recursion to keep you afloat. That said you mentioned being on a budget. How big/small of a budget are we talking here?
Both Dynacharge and Rites of Initiation seem pretty underwhelming for multiplayer, but especially Rites since the discard is random. Dogpile as the distinction of being a card that you can hold up. Oh, your opponent Cyclonic Rifted in response to your attack? Maybe they were saving a Fog? Now instead of losing insane value on your attack you get to say "well too bad because I'm going to make sure this sucks for you anyway."
This is interesting to think about. I don't feel Dynacharge can be underwhelming in multiplayer considering the overload ability on it - it's won me a couple games in another token deck. Compared to Dogpile I see it as costing one mana more (compared to the overload on Dynacharge), but actually doing one less "total damage" per creature since the Dyna buff would be +2/0, although I definitely hear your explanation that the Pile isn't combat damage, and so is more likely to get through combat tricks. I've used Dynacharge in my other deck enough to know what it's capable of, so I feel I really want to stick with it for now. I wasn't considering Rites of Initiation's discarding being random, because in my mind I was totally thinking of it for an alpha strike by discarding my entire hand of (what would likely be, with all the card draw and no max hand size) 7-10 cards. Turning a handful of 1/1 fliers into 8/8s or 11/11s with a single R and discarding my hand. It's the kind of card that would allow me to maximize a big draw spell like Pull from Tomorrow and in the same turn swing with all those hasty fliers I just made and for one more mana, discard and buff the heck out of them. I'm understanding the application you're mentioning for Dogpile in that it can be reactionary as well as proactive that still guarantees some kind of damage gets through, whereas a buff to the creature itself is still prone to last minute removal like the aforementioned Cyclonic Rift - and I've definitely been on the receiving end of a Cyclonic Rift when attempting an alpha strike with tons of buffed creatures, my stomach right to the floor! Dogpile is a more fun name for a card too. With all of that considered, I'm going to agree that Rites may be fun and offer the potential for more total damage, but Pile is kind of a safer and more flexible card in how I use it - kind of like a surprise Raid Bombardment, so I will cut Rites of Initiation for Dogpile.
I'm also deciding to fit in Raid Bombardment and Hellrider. To do so, I'm going to cut Deprive and Abjure, and add the repeatable (with buyback) counterspell of Forbid. The discard buyback shouldn't be an issue later in the game, or mid-game if I've been drawing enough cards by then. That leaves me an open slot of Raid Bombardment. I'll cut Mindwrack Liege and add Hellrider. After watching Sean's The Locust God deck on MTG Muddstah earlier today ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYRGxDvZaHM ), Hellrider looks great. He used it in that match, seems powerful enough to me, and thinking about it in that particular situation where he used it, I would want Hellrider over MWL.
I'll update the decklist in the OP. This is looking exciting. I just hope my Locust God isn't stolen the first time I attempt to cast it like Sean's was!
Well I was thinking in terms of the fact that cards like War Horn and Orcish Oriflamme exist which get you similar value to things like Dynacharge without being simple one-shots. Dynacharge is fine, don't get me wrong, but if you spend it and your opponents have some way to save themselves then you've just painted a bigger target on your head because you've spent resources on a turn that you can't immediately threaten people with again.
Both Dynacharge and Rites of Initiation seem pretty underwhelming for multiplayer, but especially Rites since the discard is random. Dogpile as the distinction of being a card that you can hold up. Oh, your opponent Cyclonic Rifted in response to your attack? Maybe they were saving a Fog? Now instead of losing insane value on your attack you get to say "well too bad because I'm going to make sure this sucks for you anyway."
Honestly? The Merfolk Looter. Looting is fine and all but it doesn't seem all that impactful when it's on a 1/1 body with all the incidental damage that runs around in your average EDH game. I'm a little iffy on the Cryptologist, too, but if it sticks around a couple turns that can at least turn into straight card draw.
Meanwhile I wouldn't discount Raid Bombardment just because you run the Liege. Like I said, I suggested it because you're only running like two anthem effects. Chances are you won't get them out every game and if you're using Mindwrack to flash your general in repeatedly it's going to become a target itself. The bombardment gives you a bit of redundancy so that if say, your Liege or a theoretical Hellrider get taken out you can still push damage through even with blockers.
On a slightly unrelated note, had you also given any thought to Dogpile?
Hellrider seems like an obvious include for a deck like this, and in the same vein since you don't seem to be running a ton of Anthem effects, had you considered Raid Bombardment? Both let you push more damage through even if your insectile friends can't connect or your opponents are saving up combat tricks for when you swing.
My only problem with this Chandra is the fact that her plus and minus abilities are both Shock with swapped targeting restrictions. I mean, it wouldn't be broken for her +1 to read "deal 2 damage to target creature or player" would it? That would allow room for her minus ability to be something else. Maybe Act on Impulse? Or just Act on Impulse with only two cards. I'd be cool with that.
I understand that these planeswalker cards are meant to represent them a bit earlier in in their escapades but all the others that we've seen still get to do cool and varied stuff(Nissa's +1 is literally Coiling Oracle) while Chandra only gets to deal varying degrees of damage. I'd just like a little variety in her abilities. That said, I still think this card is pretty decent and I'm excited to get one.
Well again, I think their reasoning is that they're taking a bit of a risk with letting her do 2 damage a tick with no other costs, so they're trying to make her more narrow in scope to balance it. If they feel that her + ability isn't too powerful after seeing how it fares in the actual environment, maybe we'll get future Chandras that hit for two and still have more diverse abilities.
You guys are describing 3- and 4-card combos that net you an underpowered planeswalker for maybe 1cmc cheaper than it might be on its own. There are simpler combos in standard that actually just win the game.
But the complaint you posed was never about Chandra "winning the game in standard", you just said she was "virtually impossible to flip", when doing so is absolutely nowhere near that difficult.
Whoa she's....difficult to analyze. She needed to be a 1 mana to be broken, and 2 mana to be good, but 3 mana is questionable.
My analysis:
Her creature is a 3 mana 2/2. Not the best, but she does have Prodigal Pyromancer's ability so she forces through some value and inevitability.
Flipping her is relatively easier than some are making it out to be. She has to be unblocked, and you have to have a red spell. Red removal is preferable.
She is 5 damage in a single turn when you flip her. Goes to 5 loyalty as well.
Dies to removal for 1 damage or no value.
Blockers pose a problem, and this doesn't play well with Dash.
My verdict: Test her. She can be huge damage or great value if you untap with her. Unfortunately I'm not sure if she's a better 3 drop than Goblin Heelcutter. I think Chandra is better than she looks, but she still might not make the cut.
She doesn't have to go unblocked, actually. I was making that mistake earlier, too. She just has to survive combat. Giving her First Strike or boosting her toughness as a combat trick or having her blocked by a 1/1 will also do the trick to satisfy the damage requirement. Brute Force or Kindled Fury can serve you just as well as a well timed burn spell to remove a blocker if you're just looking to flip her.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
In what way does having to cast two red spells in a turn make her "virtually impossible" to flip? Particularly given that, at least until the new rotation cycle kicks in, a deck using her will have access to both Wild Slash and Lightning Strike. Plenty of cheap Red creatures that'll be in Standard, as well.
Except for the fact that, like Moonmist, this will kill your PWs. It would need to be something like
3U
Instant
Exile target creature you control, then return it to the battlefield flipped
But that wouldn't work because if you target a non DF card then what happens?
How would that Moonmist variant kill your 'Walkers?
Yeah it's not absurdly hard but she is asking you to jump through more hoops than any of the other ones are. Jace and Nissa arent asking you to give up any cards that you might not otherwise and even if you give up a creature you wouldnt otherwise have to make Liliana flip she at least gives you a 2/2 zombie. With Chandra it can be a bit awkward because she can make you choose between casting something like Thunderbreak Regent on T4 or toss out two Wild Slashes that you might rather have held onto.
Its just such a weird design. The red decks that can easily flip her are aggro ones that plan on casting multiple spells per turn but those decks also really do not want a 2/2 for 3cmc that has no immediate impact on the board. If she had haste I think she'd be fine without being overpowered since a 2/2 haste for 3 mana isnt even close to exciting but at least she can still do something.
Another weird thing about her design is how in order to reach her ultimate Chandra will have needed to deal at least 9 damage to your opponent (3 from enabling her to flip and 6 from using her +1 three times). Then her ultimate deals 6 immediately and 3 more on their upkeep. I get that most planeswalker ultimates should typically come with a "well I'm probably going to win since this gives me an overwhelming advantage" feel to them but this just seems like strange overkill. Maybe it was made with EDH in mind but even if Chandra has been the only thing damaging your opponent they'll be at 2 barring things like life gain or redirecting damage to enemy walkers. If her +1 could hit creatures that'd be one thing since if she ults in a grindy matchup where she's doing removal and the opponent might not be that low yet but it just strikes me as weirdly linear.
I misread that bit, too, but all three damage required to make her flip doesn't have to be to the opponent. At least two of it can be to a creature. So really it's anywhere between 13-15 damage, not counting the emblem, if you ultimate her as soon as possible, which still trumps any past Chandra's damage output when you think about it. That also means you can actually afford to point more removal at opposing creatures without having to worry about being able to finish off your opponent.
Jace and Chandra both have to have their "creature ability" work in order to transform in a manner similar to the "Ordeal" series of Theros.
With Jace, that isn't so big a deal - but with Chandra, it makes her harder to transform from the likes of creature combat.
Honestly all she actually needs is any instant that will give her first strike, then on either attack or block you can just ping between the First Strike and normal damage steps and voila.
Combat tricks are rarely playable in constructed outside of decks that synergize with them (Infect, Boss Sligh, Hexproof, Heroics) and spells that have different modes (Boros Charm, Jeskai Charm, Valorous Stance). I don't think Chandra fits with combat trick loaded decks since those decks want their bodies to be cheap and/or to have abilities that play naturally with that playstyle (protection, double strike, hexproof, lifelink). Chandra plays better in decks that just play cheap red spells that are good on their own, like burn decks or a traditional RDW. Atarka's Command is probably the best trick Chandra would want to play with, and that's because all of its abilities are relevant to Chandra.
True, however I wasn't speaking of Standard specifically. There are at least a few other formats where she could find a home. I'm honestly looking at her for Tiny Leaders moreso than Standard.
But isn't that the key think about all Chandra's Galerion
Well that's true.
To be the fair though they broke the cycle with Chandra, Pyromaster but it looks like that was short-lived.
They did. Altough they turned her into a Control Planeswalker. Because in all honesty, that could have been a bunch of abilities on any U Planeswalker. In fact it's UR if we look deep into those abilities. This is neither here not there but I can see only mediocre Chandra's. Which is why am/was such a fan of Koth of the Hammer. That guy is Red.
In my opinion still a better direction than "Burn this, burn that, burn everything"
My personal favorite among the Mono R 'Walkers is actually Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. Pretty neat little suite of abilities on him.
As for Pyromaster, she's not really a control card. I tried her in a control deck, and honestly while her 0 does generate card advantage, it doesn't do so in a way that synergizes with control decks, since it's use-or-lose. If it worked more like Commune with Lava, I might agree with you. The decks I've found her most at home in were aggro decks with her at the top of the curve. Actually as luck would have it I had an Izzet aggro deck toward the end of RTR/Theros standard. Honestly where Chandra shone brightest in all the different ways I tried to use her was abusing the "target creature can't block" clause of her +1, which I think people really undervalue. That I was also chipping away at their life in the process was just gravy, and having the option to 0 her got me out of a tight spot or two, but just being able to push damage through against creatures that normally stonewall an aggressive deck really gets there.
That being said, this is the first time they've tried Shock, or at least a pseudo Shock, as opposed to a simple ping as a + loyalty ability. Given that it costs no further resources to use once Chandra's flipped, that's likely going to make a huge difference as far as her damage output goes. They're probably taking a bit of a risk with that, so they didn't want to make her abilities too diverse for fear of her being too strong at 3 mana. Part of the reason Tibalt ended up so weak, after all, was the fact that a two mana 'walker had never been tried before, but putting him anywhere near the power level of any Planeswalker that had come before would probably have been disastrous. Maybe not JTMS levels of disastrous, but still a level that they'd want to avoid. Or that's my take on it, anyway.
Jace and Chandra both have to have their "creature ability" work in order to transform in a manner similar to the "Ordeal" series of Theros.
With Jace, that isn't so big a deal - but with Chandra, it makes her harder to transform from the likes of creature combat.
Honestly all she actually needs is any instant that will give her first strike, then on either attack or block you can just ping between the First Strike and normal damage steps and voila.
I hate how Nissa's card doesn't actually reflect on elves since that was what she learnt about when walked to Lorwyn. Instead we have animating lands which is kinda GW with the whole token thing. Not to mention are the cards set way after their ascension or just after? Because Nissa didn't become the world waker till after the whole Rise Eldrazi thing.
Kinda weak Jace but it's atleast stronger and easier to awaken then his Living Guildpact card.
Not entirely accurate, which also seems a bit odd that they wouldn't use it for her creature side, but as I understand it, Nissa started out as a Druid, or at least something Druid-like, so land shenanigans would be par the course for an early version of her. Her art on Groundswell also seems to support that notion. I'm honestly more disappointed in Jace's 'walker side. Given that his roots are as a natural-born telepath, his abilities, save for his emblem, don't feel all that telepathic. I'd have liked to see him either have Scry as a + ability (although that might be a bit more oracular than telepathic... I was never entirely clear on that one...) or something that manipulates either your hand or your opponent's as one of his first two, but I guess at two mana they might still have been worried about the Tibalt conundrum.
It doesn't matter. Storm triggers off the number of spells cast prior in the same turn. The Storm copies don't have to trigger it. Every ritual and cantrip you cast to get your storm count up *does*, and that can make a huge difference in the number of spells you need to cast for lethal.
I'm still crossing my fingers for The Tabbynacle at Pawndrell Vale but hey, spoiler season's not over yet!
Well I was thinking in terms of the fact that cards like War Horn and Orcish Oriflamme exist which get you similar value to things like Dynacharge without being simple one-shots. Dynacharge is fine, don't get me wrong, but if you spend it and your opponents have some way to save themselves then you've just painted a bigger target on your head because you've spent resources on a turn that you can't immediately threaten people with again.
Meanwhile I wouldn't discount Raid Bombardment just because you run the Liege. Like I said, I suggested it because you're only running like two anthem effects. Chances are you won't get them out every game and if you're using Mindwrack to flash your general in repeatedly it's going to become a target itself. The bombardment gives you a bit of redundancy so that if say, your Liege or a theoretical Hellrider get taken out you can still push damage through even with blockers.
On a slightly unrelated note, had you also given any thought to Dogpile?
Well again, I think their reasoning is that they're taking a bit of a risk with letting her do 2 damage a tick with no other costs, so they're trying to make her more narrow in scope to balance it. If they feel that her + ability isn't too powerful after seeing how it fares in the actual environment, maybe we'll get future Chandras that hit for two and still have more diverse abilities.
But the complaint you posed was never about Chandra "winning the game in standard", you just said she was "virtually impossible to flip", when doing so is absolutely nowhere near that difficult.
She doesn't have to go unblocked, actually. I was making that mistake earlier, too. She just has to survive combat. Giving her First Strike or boosting her toughness as a combat trick or having her blocked by a 1/1 will also do the trick to satisfy the damage requirement. Brute Force or Kindled Fury can serve you just as well as a well timed burn spell to remove a blocker if you're just looking to flip her.
In what way does having to cast two red spells in a turn make her "virtually impossible" to flip? Particularly given that, at least until the new rotation cycle kicks in, a deck using her will have access to both Wild Slash and Lightning Strike. Plenty of cheap Red creatures that'll be in Standard, as well.
How would that Moonmist variant kill your 'Walkers?
I misread that bit, too, but all three damage required to make her flip doesn't have to be to the opponent. At least two of it can be to a creature. So really it's anywhere between 13-15 damage, not counting the emblem, if you ultimate her as soon as possible, which still trumps any past Chandra's damage output when you think about it. That also means you can actually afford to point more removal at opposing creatures without having to worry about being able to finish off your opponent.
True, however I wasn't speaking of Standard specifically. There are at least a few other formats where she could find a home. I'm honestly looking at her for Tiny Leaders moreso than Standard.
My personal favorite among the Mono R 'Walkers is actually Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. Pretty neat little suite of abilities on him.
As for Pyromaster, she's not really a control card. I tried her in a control deck, and honestly while her 0 does generate card advantage, it doesn't do so in a way that synergizes with control decks, since it's use-or-lose. If it worked more like Commune with Lava, I might agree with you. The decks I've found her most at home in were aggro decks with her at the top of the curve. Actually as luck would have it I had an Izzet aggro deck toward the end of RTR/Theros standard. Honestly where Chandra shone brightest in all the different ways I tried to use her was abusing the "target creature can't block" clause of her +1, which I think people really undervalue. That I was also chipping away at their life in the process was just gravy, and having the option to 0 her got me out of a tight spot or two, but just being able to push damage through against creatures that normally stonewall an aggressive deck really gets there.
That being said, this is the first time they've tried Shock, or at least a pseudo Shock, as opposed to a simple ping as a + loyalty ability. Given that it costs no further resources to use once Chandra's flipped, that's likely going to make a huge difference as far as her damage output goes. They're probably taking a bit of a risk with that, so they didn't want to make her abilities too diverse for fear of her being too strong at 3 mana. Part of the reason Tibalt ended up so weak, after all, was the fact that a two mana 'walker had never been tried before, but putting him anywhere near the power level of any Planeswalker that had come before would probably have been disastrous. Maybe not JTMS levels of disastrous, but still a level that they'd want to avoid. Or that's my take on it, anyway.
Honestly all she actually needs is any instant that will give her first strike, then on either attack or block you can just ping between the First Strike and normal damage steps and voila.
Not entirely accurate, which also seems a bit odd that they wouldn't use it for her creature side, but as I understand it, Nissa started out as a Druid, or at least something Druid-like, so land shenanigans would be par the course for an early version of her. Her art on Groundswell also seems to support that notion. I'm honestly more disappointed in Jace's 'walker side. Given that his roots are as a natural-born telepath, his abilities, save for his emblem, don't feel all that telepathic. I'd have liked to see him either have Scry as a + ability (although that might be a bit more oracular than telepathic... I was never entirely clear on that one...) or something that manipulates either your hand or your opponent's as one of his first two, but I guess at two mana they might still have been worried about the Tibalt conundrum.