MTG Salvation

This deck has a couple of restrictions, self-enforced (inflicted?) in order to make it more interesting. I started with an initial rule of no artifacts, because artifacts were quickly causing super degenerate combos when the goal of the deck is something of a slow deck burn.

I removed a couple two card combos as well, including the well-known Guard + Gond and Squirrelpocalypse (Thune and Feeder remain... for reasons). Still, the deck is a combo deck and is intended to infinite in a variety of ways, though perhaps primarily through either a Threshed Krosan Restorer (during the attack phase with Maze of Ith) or Argothian Druid with Wirewood Lodge. It's a pretty land heavy deck and the relative safeness playing lands affords hopefully increases the three and four card combos actually working (given two or three are lands). Aluren is also fairly degenerate but will not outright combo with anything, near as I can tell (though the synergy with Stonecloaker is great, the best you will get from that with this deck is the ability to exile all graveyards). Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote are an obvious combo though they also need an Elf to make them go off, with Aluren it becomes easier still.

Some Combos/Synergy:
Selvala + Symbiote + Mirror Entity
Thune + Feeder
Aluren + Symbiote + Mirror Entity + Elf ETBs
Helix Pinnacle + Mana Combos
Argothian Elder + Wirewood Lodge + Fertile Ground or Elvish Guidance
Threshold Krosan Restorer + Maze of Ith + Lands (Mikokoro or Vitu-Ghazi)
Presence of Gond + Symbiote + Mirror Entity + Aluren
Stormfront Riders + Aluren - Synergy
Aluren + Stonecloaker - Exile graveyards

I'm not going to explain every card, most are played for either ETB effects or synergy, hopefully both, rather I'm trying to look for ways to increase synergy and reliability. All these setups are relatively easy to interrupt given they rely heavily on creatures. Would be interested to know if there are elves that could either directly replace certain effects to increase synergy or garner more ETB effects.

I'm not really sold on Saffi or Stormfront Riders in this deck. Saffi doesn't have as much of a place without Reveillark and this deck also has no sac outlets to begin with. Stormfront Riders seems like it would typically end up in a win-more pile whereas most others have some utility on their own. Gaea's Herald and a few of the other elves (Joraga) are also ones I'm uncertain of, perhaps because their board impact isn't felt immediately. Interested as well in thoughts on Lotus Vale due to its obvious synergy with Argothian Druid.

Quote from Cambriel

Quote from esserius

Cut Forked Bolt for Probe.

I would cut 2 Forked Bolt for 1 Probe, and 1 Fire/Ice. Sometimes that split damage really comes in handy, and it pitches to FoW.

I'm also not a fan of Thought Scour in RUG Delver at all.

I'll third not being a fan of Thought Scour. I would personally rather have Forked Bolt over Fire/Ice, but those flex slots are typically going to come down to preference. With more and more use, I'm preferring Probe in those slots though.

I assume some have seen the deck posted by Jessy Hefner and am definitely curious as to what people think about it.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65490

Cut Forked Bolt for Probe.

Quote from ryan1028

I tested Gitaxian Probe, and although it gives you free information, cantrips, and helps achieve Threshold, it just isn't the same as it is in my Storm deck; I prefer to play more business in this deck rather than cantrips 9-12. Thought Scour is one that I never tested because, like Probe, it only helps achieve Threshold while not actually providing any sort of business. I really like Spell Snare in this deck because Tarmogoyf is a card and our deck isn't the best-equipped to deal with it. Dismember is pretty much used as another way to deal with opposing Goyfs; I personally don't like Dismember, though I must admit that outside of Submerge, it is one of the only ways we can deal with Tombstalker against Team America, but that card is pretty fringe nowadays. We have Daze, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, and Spell Snare for an early Chalice, so resolving it is a real chore for our opponents; all those same cards except Snare do the same against an early Blood Moon. Both of these cards are much less effective against us if they resolve when we already have a board presence, because they still have to deal with our fast threats. I used to play this list that I made 9th with, but I've since dropped the 3rd Snare for the 4th Daze (I think we actually have the same maindeck); they somehow didn't type in the 2 Rough//Tumbles, but that's what is supposed to be after the first "2" in the SB. Everything else about my list is actually still the same, outside of that one change.

I have personally been loving Gitaxian Probe, not just because it helps with threshold, but it's a Sorcery (helps Goyf), it replaces itself for free, and most crucially, provides information. I really cannot stress enough how important information is for this deck. More than anything else, you need information. You will win and lose games because of the information you have or don't have. Probe can also be used to dig a bit deeper with Brainstorm/Ponder, should you need the extra card that you would normally have to wait for.

I do agree that 4 Daze is the way to go. I'm also not a fan of Dismember, I would rather have Forked Bolt. It's just generally more versatile. It won't kill fatties obviously, but I think our options against fatties tend to be countering them rather than competing against them. More true now than ever with True-Name Nemesis.

I guess the problem with Probe is counter-based brainstorming, but it's probably more significant in the case of Pierce rather than Ponder. If you Brainstorm into a Ponder you're mostly just neutral or shuffling out of necessity. I would probably just replace the 2 flex slots (instead of something like forked bolts). Drop one Goyf for Pyromancer as an experimental critter.

Still not sure Pyromancer has enough testing to justify taking out Goyfs in any major fashion though.

Also, has anyone tried Pillar of Flame in flex slots with any satisfaction?

Yeah, I would think the biggest weakness of Young Pyromancer, especially in this deck, is having the gas to make it function properly. At R the card would be amazing, at 1R the card is cumbersome without Daze or Force (or both) turn 2. Gitaxian Probe may actually be a good choice for something like Pyro, rather than typical flex... or possibly Surgical Extraction?

Yeah the deck you're putting together sounds more and more like it just wants to be a BUG variant. Nimble Mongoose gets big in all but greediest hands, and doesn't die to most removal, which is extremely relevant in RUG's tougher matchups. I've won frequently by simply swinging with a Mongoose the opposing player didn't have an answer for.

Shroud can beat many decks. It's why Geist is fringe playable in UW decks.

Probably also worth noting that the field isn't really dominated by 4CC decks.

Yeah, Misdirection in the MB has to be a meta call. Even so I would find that hard to justify over Divert, given that most Jund/BUG decks tend to try and get ahead in the early game, and if they can't get the advantage then, they will likely fall too far behind to catch back up. Or such is my experience, at least. Could be that the pilot was worried about mana denial as a strategy.

Quote from Smells_Better

Some of the old side boards would run 2 tops and 3 counterbalances, just wondering if this may be good again.

What would you be boarding them in against that would help change the flow of the game significantly? I can't see them doing much against any deck running Abrupt Decay, if we get into a grindy match with Deathblade we're going to lose, combo doesn't care, which leaves us at aggro. Which... maybe I could see? I mean, I guess it might help against Merfolk and Goblins, but both of them can cheat in their creatures (and, you know, Cavern of Souls).

Quote from Smells_Better

Any opinions on the counterbalance side board?

We don't have Top, and Top is what makes Counterbalance playable.

I'm slowly becoming a bigger believer in Chain Lightning as I'm encountering more Merfolk... agreeing with Dune2k as well, pitch a Fire//Ice, put a Stifle in its place.

My local meta has more combo/control, but I've done well at GPs with Sylvan Library (granted, I've never made it into top 32s, but I've had 6-3 and 7-2s frequently). It's a haymaker in the mirror match.

I agree Ryan, but even as I disagree with Josh about Sylvan Library as a MD choice, I do agree with him that defending your position on why you like/dislike a card in a deck is valuable and feeds back into the discourse behind the deck. There are lots of opinions about those flex spots, but reducing it to "you suck if you play card X" doesn't really help the discussion.

I'm currently considering Savage Summoning or Young Pyromancer, though I'm not sure where. What I am sure of is that Pyromancer, at the very least, seems to be able to add a lot of pressure. The problem is mostly its cost.

I think Library has a very real impact on the board state, much the same as a hand full of gas affects the board state. The advantage it gives isn't just more cards, it's more potential conditions that the opponent isn't able to predict, and that's a huge advantage when we talk about tempo. Resolving Library is perhaps one of the largest tempo swings available for this deck, because it means that either a) the opponent has to win on the next turn or b) they lose.

It's a pressure card that has huge benefits which isn't just about being more mana-efficient. It's a draw engine that forces the opponent to play into your threats.

It's a Jace that costs 2 mana and is considerably more difficult to get rid of (some hyperbole here).

Also, I don't really agree that it's just about the most efficient cards. If it were, you could reveal your hand and you would still come out on top. I think the reality is that there is also a need for consideration of the mental game that goes on, and I think Sylvan Library is maybe the best card at messing with that.