I think this deck will still be good post rotation, because we get a whole extra set with Coldsnap and don't have to worry about Cranial Extraction ruining our day.
I'm taking a serious approach to this deck... I see it's potential, it reminds me alot of Mind's Desire in the way it goes off. My build is the "go infinite" kind, nothing stupid, everything has a purpose. Kill condition is just rehashing Galvanic Arcs. I had a 2 Kokusho + 1 Loaming Shaman kill after I go infinite, but I had Arcs in anyway, and that made more sense. Without further ah-do...
Now, most builds have cute stuff... Fist of Ironwood, Flame-kin Zealots... But why? They don't do anything. My kill condition works the same, and the deck almost NEVER fizzles. How can you ever find WW without Top? I find it hard, and the deck doesn't do much else. Between Top, shuffle effects, Carvens, and Warps themself, I find them quite often. As for a sideboard, Defense Grid and Dosan look good to stop the counter decks... Any other suggestions? I'm also thinking it needs a few answers to Ivory Mask and Extraction. Thoughts?
EDIT: I don't play Reach... but had it in the list anyway, lol
What about Vhitu-Gazi? Would it really be too much on the mana base? It would creature some insane synergy and let you run off 1 creature with the Curio. Maybe 1-2, as an outlet when you get the board Wrath'ed.
I think Utopia Growth could be okay, it speeds our deck up an entire turn. It could be the difference maker against Zoo, but who knows. Maybe sideboard 4 for Zoo/Gruul/Ghost Dad?
Who cares if it is card disadvantage? The point of the man plan isn't to crush with advantage, it's to play fat things and turn them sideways.
And you can say that you Invoke for 6 (with NINE mana) all the time, but it doesn't change the fact that the game should be very close to done at that point.
Plus, it also serves to power out a rather large Savage Twister early if need be, or to power out Keiga/Rysuei/whatever early enough against a dedicated aggro build.
I care if it's card disadvantege. Just because I plan to enter the red zone doesn't mean card disadvantege isn't bad.
The thing is, you shouldn't need to power out early stuff. Your definitly not trying to race BW decks, you just need to win the attrition war with Savage Twisters, Melokus, and Keiga. CA is VERY importent against decks with discard.
When I was still running the man plan, I would take out most of the combo except I kept the Harvests in, so I could refill my hand with Invoke.
That seems pretty sub-par, since Harvest is card disadvantege in the first place, and I find Invoking for 6 (and that's with the card that would have been Harvest as your 7th so you don't have to discard, AND having no cards in hand) is easy when I actually find it.
The difference is that you have an un-counterable win condition that doesn't mean you have to tap out. And is re-useable alot. Voidslime is VERY importent in the Heartbeat match-up, countering the Replicate on Gigadrowse or else you pretty much just lose. Green also doesn't strain the mana-base at all, or barely any.
...Additionally, do NOT side out the combo when transforming. I don't know HOW many times I have to stress this, this is the LAST time I'm going to share my knowledge about this particular subject. Keeping the combo in allows to go off in one turn. Ditch the weird, a couple drifts, maga, but keep like 2 heartbeats, 3 earlies, and 2 drifts and the invoke in, coz its A. card draw against BW B. spot removal, and C. a BIG finisher...
I couldn't agree LESS.
Your already playing a diluted CMU, why make it diluted-ed CMU + terrible Heartbeat? I've tested half-combo ALOT, but found that I would rather have buisness spells then dead Heartbeats/Earlies.
I usually just bring in 12 non-Gigadrowse cards and take out 4 Early Harvest, 4 Heartbeat, 1 Weird Harvest, 1 Maga, 2 Drift. Obviously, Invoke is still good, especially since you usually have alot of lands late.
What's shattering spree for? (Sorry for my newbish question). Seems to be getting popular. All i can think of is jitte and signets. Is it that amazing?
Owling Mine runs off 2 artifacts as well as what was posted above
With all the land fetching in this deck how can you possibly not use Vinelasher Kudzu in the SB? Especially for FOUR Keigas? By the time you cast Keiga you would have an equally large Kudzu, AND you'd have been swinging two to three turns earlier.
The kudzu is godly in this setup. Run it. Love it.
Kudzu is just a little vanilla guy. He has a huge target on his head and SUCKS late game. They will kill him early or just block and kill him. 4 Keiga is because he's your best creature. I can't help but run 4. I'm never unhappy to draw one, and 2 is just as great. Also, most decks just don't answer flyers very well.
I have been testing the man plan sideboard with 4 vinelasher 2 meloku 2 iwamori 3 twister 1 shaman 3 giga.
Alot of times I side in almost every card, taking out 4 HB 4 EH 2 WH 1 maga 3-4 drift. Is this standard procedure for a sideboard like this? I have found it working decently well vs BW based decks, and somewhat ok vs zoo.
Do people run more than 8 men with any more effectivness?
What do you guys think about Kodama over Iwa? I know alot of people also advocate Wumpa, but with no trample and no protection, it seems a bit weaker than either Iwa or Kodama.
1 card I would like to try to fit in would be Wear Away. Most of my games vs decks i sided in giga always ended up with me using giga and raping them the next turn, plus it has won me games when using the man plan vs aggro thats setting up chump blockers vs some men... so im not sure about cutting it down to 2 gigas....
I personally don't like Kudzus, as they pretty much fail in comparison to Big Flyers™. My current 'board isn't transform right now, but my transforming one is:
4 Keiga
3 Meloku
2 Kodama of TNT
3 Gigadrowse
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Savage Twister
But it's still not perfect, I can never seem to find the right combination. Not like I lose anyway, but still
Shzlbgagablygook is absolutely correct. Exhastion does NOTHING unless you are losing. At which point you have effectively delayed the game, yet are still losing. Play some of the cards that you are delaying in order to draw, (like more LD!). Play to win, not to simply survive more turns.
YES, that's pretty much what I was trying to say all along, only I used around 5 paragraphs.
Back to deck discussion...
Here is the list I've been testing, with card explainations
3 Magnivore
No need for alternate kills mainboard. With Tidinds and Compulsive and Sleight you will find one when you need it.
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Compulsive Research
3 Tidings
Most people will argue with the 3rd Tidings, but I'm a firm believer that it's needed. I'm never unhappy to have it, and it's a MUST on turn 5-6 to refuel and keep the tempo going. If you don't hit it before that, you need to just lucksack into Wildfires/Magnivores/Tempo. Compulsive and Sleight are obvious 4-ofs.
4 Stone Rain
4 Eye of Nowhere
3 Demolish
3 Boomerang
0 Exhaustion
I feel these are the right numbers, mainly because of the extra Tidings as a way to reload. I don't think cutting 'rangs is good, since the metagame still has alot of big dudes you need to bounce pre-Wildfire, and pro-red guys are always a pain in the arse.
3 Wildfire
3 Remand
3 Pyroclasm
Wildfire should be obvious. Best card in Standard right now IMHO, or at least most powerful, no other cards say "6cc, target Zoo player loses." Remand is a personal choice, I LOVE it. I would never go anywhere without a these. I had Leaks in here before, but the cantrip aspect of Remand is too much to pass up. It's alot more to this decks style, where I just stall until I can Wildfire your side of the board FTW. Pyroclasm is amazing against BW, and great sometimes against Zoo/Gruul. 'Nuff said.
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
7 Island
1 Minamo, School at Waters Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Shinka, Something Something?
5 Mountains
Yep, I went there. Shinka isn't great but it's better then a Mountain, and although it hasn't yet helped, it hasn't hurt at all, and has the possibility to help sometime in the future, and that's good enough for me. 23 lands has always worked out fine. 24 works almost the same in testing, and I needed a slot for the 3rd Pyroclasm.
Sideboard:
4 Mana Leak
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Wildfire
1 Demolish
1 Pyroclasm
Mana Leak and Demolish and Wildfire for Heartbeat/Extraction decks, Hammers and Threads and the aggro match-ups, Pyroclasm for BW/Weenie piles. Thoughts/Suggestions/Flame-outs?
I'm currently not using the man plan. My thoughts on it our this; it wins games, but right now were in a transitional period, and people are almost assuming you switch, since they pretty much have to. I still would advocate (and do it myself) shuffling your whole sideboard in to confuse them.
Wow. I dont mean to offend you, but if you think stopping them dead for a turn is horrible your a pretty bad player. In the right situations playing Exhaustion is like saying "Tap a U and 2, Beacon of Tommorrows."
Hypothetical situation - Playing Versus Zoo. He has 6 lands, Jitte on a Isaamaru with 6 counters and 4 other creatures in play. Your at 18 he's at 14You wildfire and he saves 3 of his creatures with the counters on Jitte.
He swings all out you take 6 going to 12 life. You hold 3 Exhaustions in your hand and lock him down. On the next 3 turns you draw the 4th Exhaustion a Stone rain and a Demolish. He doesnt draw into any land or playable creatures in the past three turns. On the 4th turn you draw Magnivore. By now Vore is Huge and Zoo has no answer to it. You swing and win.
As I said I dont wish to offend you and Exhaustion could just be a personal preference. I still think it's a great card here though.
...
I honestly don't know what to say. But I know where to start...
Zoo has 6 lands? And an active Jeet with 6 counters and 4 creatures, and your on 18? How is the Jitte getting counters when you arn't taking damage? I want a card that stops that! Is it Exhaustion?
So in your example, you had a situation where you were OBVIOUSLY dead before that, AND drew 4 Exhaustions. PLEASE don't call me a bad player when you don't know what the hell your talking about. In the RIGHT situation Exhaustion as a card is AMAZING. I love the card. I play Owling Mine, and it works like a charm there. But this deck is about them having NO lands in the first place! They shouldn't have anything to untap, so it SHOULD be a dead card. I think a viable example, albeit still extreme, would be:
They have 3 lands, a few guys, and you got a bad draw, they swing you down to 1, and tap out, and you need 1 turn before you have Wildfire mana, and Exhaustion buys you the turn.
PLEASE re-elaborate on Exhaustion, or stop posting here, or something, my brain hurts now
4 Sakura Tribe Speedbump
4 Wood Elves
4 Carven Caryatid
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Warp World
4 Hunted Troll
4 Galvanic Arc
4 Anarchist
1 Izzet Chronarch
4 Heartbeat of Spring
9 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
Now, most builds have cute stuff... Fist of Ironwood, Flame-kin Zealots... But why? They don't do anything. My kill condition works the same, and the deck almost NEVER fizzles. How can you ever find WW without Top? I find it hard, and the deck doesn't do much else. Between Top, shuffle effects, Carvens, and Warps themself, I find them quite often. As for a sideboard, Defense Grid and Dosan look good to stop the counter decks... Any other suggestions? I'm also thinking it needs a few answers to Ivory Mask and Extraction. Thoughts?
EDIT: I don't play Reach... but had it in the list anyway, lol
I care if it's card disadvantege. Just because I plan to enter the red zone doesn't mean card disadvantege isn't bad.
The thing is, you shouldn't need to power out early stuff. Your definitly not trying to race BW decks, you just need to win the attrition war with Savage Twisters, Melokus, and Keiga. CA is VERY importent against decks with discard.
That seems pretty sub-par, since Harvest is card disadvantege in the first place, and I find Invoking for 6 (and that's with the card that would have been Harvest as your 7th so you don't have to discard, AND having no cards in hand) is easy when I actually find it.
I couldn't agree LESS.
Your already playing a diluted CMU, why make it diluted-ed CMU + terrible Heartbeat? I've tested half-combo ALOT, but found that I would rather have buisness spells then dead Heartbeats/Earlies.
I usually just bring in 12 non-Gigadrowse cards and take out 4 Early Harvest, 4 Heartbeat, 1 Weird Harvest, 1 Maga, 2 Drift. Obviously, Invoke is still good, especially since you usually have alot of lands late.
Owling Mine runs off 2 artifacts as well as what was posted above
Kudzu is just a little vanilla guy. He has a huge target on his head and SUCKS late game. They will kill him early or just block and kill him. 4 Keiga is because he's your best creature. I can't help but run 4. I'm never unhappy to draw one, and 2 is just as great. Also, most decks just don't answer flyers very well.
I personally don't like Kudzus, as they pretty much fail in comparison to Big Flyers™. My current 'board isn't transform right now, but my transforming one is:
4 Keiga
3 Meloku
2 Kodama of TNT
3 Gigadrowse
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Savage Twister
But it's still not perfect, I can never seem to find the right combination. Not like I lose anyway, but still
YES, that's pretty much what I was trying to say all along, only I used around 5 paragraphs.
Back to deck discussion...
Here is the list I've been testing, with card explainations
3 Magnivore
No need for alternate kills mainboard. With Tidinds and Compulsive and Sleight you will find one when you need it.
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Compulsive Research
3 Tidings
Most people will argue with the 3rd Tidings, but I'm a firm believer that it's needed. I'm never unhappy to have it, and it's a MUST on turn 5-6 to refuel and keep the tempo going. If you don't hit it before that, you need to just lucksack into Wildfires/Magnivores/Tempo. Compulsive and Sleight are obvious 4-ofs.
4 Stone Rain
4 Eye of Nowhere
3 Demolish
3 Boomerang
0 Exhaustion
I feel these are the right numbers, mainly because of the extra Tidings as a way to reload. I don't think cutting 'rangs is good, since the metagame still has alot of big dudes you need to bounce pre-Wildfire, and pro-red guys are always a pain in the arse.
3 Wildfire
3 Remand
3 Pyroclasm
Wildfire should be obvious. Best card in Standard right now IMHO, or at least most powerful, no other cards say "6cc, target Zoo player loses." Remand is a personal choice, I LOVE it. I would never go anywhere without a these. I had Leaks in here before, but the cantrip aspect of Remand is too much to pass up. It's alot more to this decks style, where I just stall until I can Wildfire your side of the board FTW. Pyroclasm is amazing against BW, and great sometimes against Zoo/Gruul. 'Nuff said.
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
7 Island
1 Minamo, School at Waters Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Shinka, Something Something?
5 Mountains
Yep, I went there. Shinka isn't great but it's better then a Mountain, and although it hasn't yet helped, it hasn't hurt at all, and has the possibility to help sometime in the future, and that's good enough for me. 23 lands has always worked out fine. 24 works almost the same in testing, and I needed a slot for the 3rd Pyroclasm.
Sideboard:
4 Mana Leak
4 Volcanic Hammer
4 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Wildfire
1 Demolish
1 Pyroclasm
Mana Leak and Demolish and Wildfire for Heartbeat/Extraction decks, Hammers and Threads and the aggro match-ups, Pyroclasm for BW/Weenie piles. Thoughts/Suggestions/Flame-outs?
EDIT: I'm dumb and typos fixed
...
I honestly don't know what to say. But I know where to start...
Zoo has 6 lands? And an active Jeet with 6 counters and 4 creatures, and your on 18? How is the Jitte getting counters when you arn't taking damage? I want a card that stops that! Is it Exhaustion?
So in your example, you had a situation where you were OBVIOUSLY dead before that, AND drew 4 Exhaustions. PLEASE don't call me a bad player when you don't know what the hell your talking about. In the RIGHT situation Exhaustion as a card is AMAZING. I love the card. I play Owling Mine, and it works like a charm there. But this deck is about them having NO lands in the first place! They shouldn't have anything to untap, so it SHOULD be a dead card. I think a viable example, albeit still extreme, would be:
They have 3 lands, a few guys, and you got a bad draw, they swing you down to 1, and tap out, and you need 1 turn before you have Wildfire mana, and Exhaustion buys you the turn.
PLEASE re-elaborate on Exhaustion, or stop posting here, or something, my brain hurts now