If you want to argue Bant is faster than Tier 1 combo decks playing UBX prepare to get laughed at. Umm, nowhere did I suggest stax has a bad matchup against UBX combo. Your blanket statement implying that Bant midrange and combo are better than hybrid stax versions of Bant is dead wrong. Whenever you are not faster than opponents sitting across from you, you must have ways to slow them down.
Draw 7's and fill the graveyard is not good. The amount of bad things that can happen grow exponentially when giving your opponents more cards and loading the graveyard for them. Mentor of the Meek is not efficient. But in a slower meta he is fine; 4 mana and a High Market with him out is draw 1 per turn.
If it's a draw 7 and fill the GY then at least one player clearly isn't playing spells, not to mention that it's solid disruption if someone is sculpting their hand. You're doing it either on your turn or at the end step before your turn, so you should be plenty capable of further locking things down. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but it sounds good on paper to me. Moreover, you mention Glix's list and Cobblepott (close enough) seems to have no problem with Archivist.
Mentor is definitely slow, but how often are you tapped out every turn having played all the spells you could? I'm not saying he's perfect, but I think he's decent and worth testing.
I'm still missing a few lock pieces I consider crucial (Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and no Gaea's Cradle) and can't establish complete dominance as easily as you might be able to. With that in mind, I'll bring up a card I've been playtesting recently. There's enough redundancy that with aggressive mulligans, opening hands will usually have 1-2 fast mana pieces, 2ish lands, 2ish taxers / lock pieces, and a tutor, an engine, or draw. Sometimes you become flooded, or mulligan down to 5-6 cards in order to even have a decent start.
Ultimately, I frequently found myself moving close to topdeck mode after dumping my hand in the first few turns of the game. At this point I usually have plenty of mana, with little to do, and so I began testing Mentor of the Meek. I have truly been pleasantly surprised (in the two games I've drawn into, or had in opening hands). Being able to replace the Llanowar Elves you draw mid game is a beautiful thing. Perhaps I don't pilot the deck correctly, or I just need to mulligan better. But it may be worth throwing on your short list of things to try.
Jace's Archivist still stands out as a card that's been sitting in the deck for weeks, that I have not yet cast or tutored. Though I'm interested to see how he works.
My general rule with "artifact or enchantment versus creature" is that I go with the artifact or enchantment first. So, Kismet is first on my list.
Haha, good catch. I'd usually agree, but in Derevi, Kismet is anti synergy with most of the taxers, and is shut off by teeg. Blind Obedience is close, but I'd rather hit lands than artifacts.
Exactly, if you can manage to get an engine to stick on the board, then usually you don't have any problems. That being said however, these two players are very insistent on blowing up every artifact and enchantment. I haven't quite understood why they have some much have for those particular card types, but I'm trying to find ways around it. And personally, I think Meren is a real pain for any deck. Most the time, I just pray they stall right off the bat so they rest of us can actually play lol.
Odd that they pack so much artifact and enchantment hate. Captain Sisay and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard are both great engines on bodies that you can try (they're both fantastic).
In combination with cards like Chancellor of the Annex, Tanglewire, Trinisphere, or a tax piece within the first 2 turns she is quite good. The later you see her the worse she is, and the less optimized your opponents' landbases are the worse she is.
Definitely agreed. Being able to drop her with a wire, or a statis like effect early is pretty powerful. But playing against 2 color, and like you said, unoptimized land bases and she's probably only hitting 50% of land drops.
Glad to hear, maybe I'll keep her on board and test a bit longer. Her not hitting basics has been mildly problematic however, as most of my opponents aren't running super optimized mana bases, and are usually in two color.
I don't see how rolling back the UI could cause data inconsistencies between platforms, they're still saving to the same databases. Or if they're not, they should have rolled out the back end platform and done some sort of AB migration. All in all, they're talented people doing good work, but I feel as though they're lacking some sort of 'Senior' Engineer leadership to assist with more advanced things like the migration and rollout of an entirely new site. *shrug*
Given the amount of downtime, I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that they had a number of backwards incompatible changes. I wouldn't be surprised if they made a number of schema changes that were incompatible with the model that was previously used in the view, and then updated their view/stack (I don't know what technology they're using off the top of my head. PHP? Ruby?) to make use of the new schema.
This is judging on how long it took and how things got out of hand for them. Backwards compatible changes rolling forward usually don't cause the same kind of deployment dumpster fires.
Exactly what I was going to say.
Given the scope of the changes, they'd more than likely have an old database for the old site, and a new database for the new one.
If someone traded a non-English, less-than-NM card inside the first 48hrs, there's no way that they'd have been able to roll that back into the old database.
I totally get that, but updating the existing site to be able to handle, or proxy through an API that can handle, the updated schema is a great way to test out the new database and the new schema without, y'know, having to do an untested cut-over.
while I understand the importance and frustration of the roll out, I am more concerned with how I seemingly cannot get cards sent to me. Only 2 in the last 3 weeks. With 30,000 points siting I am done sending out cards for now. I have over 1000 trades in sent and received. Real question is the site slowing down in the amount of trades?
Oddly enough, I've been getting more trades recently. Granted, I have a bounty on all of my wants and I've been stingy in only sending out to users with bounties as well. But I had 5k worth of points come in this week.
I'm digging the idea of an Ant Queen here. You run Regal Force and Craterhoof Behemoth.
- Good mana dump if you have nothing else to do.
- Is another win con with infinite mana, should you not be able to deck yourself.
- Makes craterhoof lethal real fast.
- Just a couple turns of making ants without infinite mana threatens to be lethal, and will most certainly be a problem when you draw 20+ cards off of Regal Force.
- Clampable ants
Just seems all around good. Plus, she's a 5/5.
Edit:
Just remembered. Sword of the Paruns: Not as efficient as the Umbral Mantle, but with a 5/5 on board it gets you infinite mana. Plus, since Umbral isn't tutorable in these colors, I think redundancy is nice. Also makes ants scarier.
In the face of heavy removal I had success increasing my card quality and emphasizing more engine-type cards, as well as adding some filters to get to them faster. If your meta builds decks with like 20 pieces of removal each, you aren't going to close a game until you dry up their hands first. Engines do that.
I definitely agree, but it's hard to keep an engine in the board long enough to get great use out of it in the presence of an obscene amount of removal. It forces their hand for sure, but Meren can just reuse it over and over again, which is mildly problematic. Unless of course you're lucky enough to get an engine online during your turn, grab a few triggers off of it on that turn, and end with a reasonable board state. Meren is a real pain in the ass against this deck, but it's doable for sure.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar -- Has anyone tested her with your other hatebears? I've been running her in my Derevi list for a few weeks and managed to draw into her for a few games. I've really been wanting her to be great, but I'm a little underwhelmed.
The Pros:
One sided like Kismet and Loxodon Gatekeeper
First Strike
Tutorable (in green)
Can turn sideways
The Cons:
Lots of generals have toughness > 3
Only hits non basics
Doesn't hit artifacts
Even though she has first strike, I keep having to hold her back due to most generals (at least in my meta) coming down early, and having toughness high enough to survive the first strike damage, and power great enough to kill her on the backswing. She does do a fine job at keeping the board clear of new creatures, and the non basic hate is fantastic. But I keep wishing to myself that she was a Root Maze or Kismet
I don't see how rolling back the UI could cause data inconsistencies between platforms, they're still saving to the same databases. Or if they're not, they should have rolled out the back end platform and done some sort of AB migration. All in all, they're talented people doing good work, but I feel as though they're lacking some sort of 'Senior' Engineer leadership to assist with more advanced things like the migration and rollout of an entirely new site. *shrug*
I play a deck that I'm leaning more and more on Cobblepott's list to build against. My meta also has a really well built Meren deck, as well as a Brago list that's a bit suboptimal, but still strong. The Meren list is a little slower than mine, so I can usually pull out ahead and start putting up the taxing walls before he gets too out of hand. Unfortunately, as soon as Spore Frog hits the field things get a little more complicated. Scavenging Ooze can really do work to hate on graves, and while Hushwing Gryff can have a negative impact on our list, it's really strong against other creature based lists like Meren. Willbreaker can also steal Meren to make sure that she doesn't keep bringing things back. I'm not sure what other grave hate I run currently for Meren, but since this is a toolbox deck, we're constantly able to access our deck for the right thing we need at the right time, and that's massive.
I'd definitely say that these lists have a bit of a learning curve, and the right answer isn't always obvious. I'm still by no means an expert, and my meta is only recently becoming more competitive. Glix's list has a really thorough walkthrough of what you want to be doing at most stages of the game, but it's really just having a very thorough understanding of what every card is in the deck, and at what point it would be useful.
I hope others chime in as well, because I need some new tips also
Search in the multiplayer decklists section for Derevi and take a look at Swift220's list. He seems to run in a pretty competitive meta, but doesn't run the full lockdown suite like many Derevi lists do. Looks a bit more like lockdown / combo / control.
If you prefer full bore lockdown, there's Cobblepott's (newer) and Glix's (outdated, pre vancouver mulligan) lists which you can find on tappedout.net
I don't see many outlets for your infinite mana, other than dumping your hand and potentially overextending. Duskwatch Recruiter maybe? Lets you draw all the creatures in your deck. Some X spell perhaps? I dunno!
Seems real good here.
As much as I think Genesis wave isn't great it may be super good in here being able to cast the next 12-20 spells in your deck for a quick win
Oh for sure, especially since green can't really tutor for the artifact mantle win con. Digging for a ton of permanents seems top notch.
I don't see many outlets for your infinite mana, other than dumping your hand and potentially overextending. Duskwatch Recruiter maybe? Lets you draw all the creatures in your deck. Some X spell perhaps? I dunno!
The new site seems to suffer from the current idea that there needs to be lots of color and pictures and shiny, when it ends up being a lot of distraction and harder see what you are actually looking for and to navigate.
Part of my job is helping companies assess the impact of site updates.
They never learn that these types of changes are more detrimental than helpful.
Never.
I pestered them about the usability issues already on Twitter, and was invited to post something on their support site.
I'm hoping they take me seriously and give me an opportunity to help out.
Agreed. Moreover, I'm aghast at how they thought a 48ish hour downtime to some users was an even remotely acceptable user experience. I mentioned this in their chat during the transition and received a really lack-luster response. I'm just not sure how a team of (what, 3-5?) developers could go about a transition like the one they went through without doing it safer. Not to mention the surplus of bugs that were a surprise when they launched and they forced users to use their bug ridden website for a week before most of them were fixed. Mind boggling. And yet, they don't see a single thing wrong.
Swift, you sound so defensive!
If it's a draw 7 and fill the GY then at least one player clearly isn't playing spells, not to mention that it's solid disruption if someone is sculpting their hand. You're doing it either on your turn or at the end step before your turn, so you should be plenty capable of further locking things down. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to test it yet, but it sounds good on paper to me. Moreover, you mention Glix's list and Cobblepott (close enough) seems to have no problem with Archivist.
Mentor is definitely slow, but how often are you tapped out every turn having played all the spells you could? I'm not saying he's perfect, but I think he's decent and worth testing.
Ultimately, I frequently found myself moving close to topdeck mode after dumping my hand in the first few turns of the game. At this point I usually have plenty of mana, with little to do, and so I began testing Mentor of the Meek. I have truly been pleasantly surprised (in the two games I've drawn into, or had in opening hands). Being able to replace the Llanowar Elves you draw mid game is a beautiful thing. Perhaps I don't pilot the deck correctly, or I just need to mulligan better. But it may be worth throwing on your short list of things to try.
Jace's Archivist still stands out as a card that's been sitting in the deck for weeks, that I have not yet cast or tutored. Though I'm interested to see how he works.
Haha, good catch. I'd usually agree, but in Derevi, Kismet is anti synergy with most of the taxers, and is shut off by teeg. Blind Obedience is close, but I'd rather hit lands than artifacts.
Odd that they pack so much artifact and enchantment hate. Captain Sisay and Yisan, the Wanderer Bard are both great engines on bodies that you can try (they're both fantastic).
Definitely agreed. Being able to drop her with a wire, or a statis like effect early is pretty powerful. But playing against 2 color, and like you said, unoptimized land bases and she's probably only hitting 50% of land drops.
Glad to hear, maybe I'll keep her on board and test a bit longer. Her not hitting basics has been mildly problematic however, as most of my opponents aren't running super optimized mana bases, and are usually in two color.
I totally get that, but updating the existing site to be able to handle, or proxy through an API that can handle, the updated schema is a great way to test out the new database and the new schema without, y'know, having to do an untested cut-over.
Oddly enough, I've been getting more trades recently. Granted, I have a bounty on all of my wants and I've been stingy in only sending out to users with bounties as well. But I had 5k worth of points come in this week.
- Good mana dump if you have nothing else to do.
- Is another win con with infinite mana, should you not be able to deck yourself.
- Makes craterhoof lethal real fast.
- Just a couple turns of making ants without infinite mana threatens to be lethal, and will most certainly be a problem when you draw 20+ cards off of Regal Force.
- Clampable ants
Just seems all around good. Plus, she's a 5/5.
Edit:
Just remembered. Sword of the Paruns: Not as efficient as the Umbral Mantle, but with a 5/5 on board it gets you infinite mana. Plus, since Umbral isn't tutorable in these colors, I think redundancy is nice. Also makes ants scarier.
I definitely agree, but it's hard to keep an engine in the board long enough to get great use out of it in the presence of an obscene amount of removal. It forces their hand for sure, but Meren can just reuse it over and over again, which is mildly problematic. Unless of course you're lucky enough to get an engine online during your turn, grab a few triggers off of it on that turn, and end with a reasonable board state. Meren is a real pain in the ass against this deck, but it's doable for sure.
The Pros:
One sided like Kismet and Loxodon Gatekeeper
First Strike
Tutorable (in green)
Can turn sideways
The Cons:
Lots of generals have toughness > 3
Only hits non basics
Doesn't hit artifacts
Even though she has first strike, I keep having to hold her back due to most generals (at least in my meta) coming down early, and having toughness high enough to survive the first strike damage, and power great enough to kill her on the backswing. She does do a fine job at keeping the board clear of new creatures, and the non basic hate is fantastic. But I keep wishing to myself that she was a Root Maze or Kismet
Thoughts?
I'd definitely say that these lists have a bit of a learning curve, and the right answer isn't always obvious. I'm still by no means an expert, and my meta is only recently becoming more competitive. Glix's list has a really thorough walkthrough of what you want to be doing at most stages of the game, but it's really just having a very thorough understanding of what every card is in the deck, and at what point it would be useful.
I hope others chime in as well, because I need some new tips also
If you prefer full bore lockdown, there's Cobblepott's (newer) and Glix's (outdated, pre vancouver mulligan) lists which you can find on tappedout.net
Most types of Derevi lists are toolbox, using things like
Tezzeret, the Seeker, Captain Sisay, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Birthing Pod, Survival of the Fittest to retrieve necessary pieces from your deck.
The basics for lockdown / prison:
There's the Thalia suite (old Thalia, Vryn Wingmare, Lodestone Golem, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and friends)
The artifact taxers Sphere of Resistance. Trinisphere etc
Ramp creatures and artifacts Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Vault
Then you just need a solid draw package and you should be mostly set.
Oh for sure, especially since green can't really tutor for the artifact mantle win con. Digging for a ton of permanents seems top notch.
Agreed. Moreover, I'm aghast at how they thought a 48ish hour downtime to some users was an even remotely acceptable user experience. I mentioned this in their chat during the transition and received a really lack-luster response. I'm just not sure how a team of (what, 3-5?) developers could go about a transition like the one they went through without doing it safer. Not to mention the surplus of bugs that were a surprise when they launched and they forced users to use their bug ridden website for a week before most of them were fixed. Mind boggling. And yet, they don't see a single thing wrong.