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  • posted a message on [C19] Fate extraction
    That player shuffles ITS library. It should be THEIR library. This isn't real.
    Lol, wotc gets progressive with their pronouns...then they get weirdly objectifying. That'd be a twist.

    I'm kind of happy. No me gusta food chain.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on C19 Another Bust?
    There are a couple of new cards so far that I dig (notably the goblin pirate and the GB troll) but the majority of it has felt underwhelming. The "Keyword Commanders" that were spoiled last week have some interesting uses, but they feel one dimensional to me. What are you going to do with the Morph and Flashback commanders outside of stuff them with the very best spells with those keywords attached, or the best cards that interact with those keywords? That's it. There's not much more room for deck innovation beyond that.

    Just for example, I've built Kynaios & Tiro of Meletis as both an Enchantress deck and a Landfall deck, two archetypes that had nothing to do with the precon that they came from. I want to see the kind of commanders that we can approach in multiple ways instead of just acquiring all of the best cards for an archetype and calling it a day.
    I don't think having strongly-indicated synergies is necessarily a bad thing. Madness, morph, and flashback all saw at best minor usage in commander. Now suddenly those cards, and strategies around those cards, will become possible. That's a lot more interesting imo than commanders that slot into existing archetypes with minor tweaks. I think it's pretty hard to do that without making the card pretty tailor-made for a certain strategy. Feather comes to mind as a fairly pigeon-holed commander that doesn't actually spell out a specific keyword - but most feather decks will share many of the same cards anyway.

    And while sure, every Kadena deck will probably be playing a lot of the same morphs as every other Kadena deck - but it's not as though you're just going to put the top 60 morphs into a deck and call it a day (I guess you could if you wanted to?). You'll probably use 30 slots for morphs, but that still leaves half your deck open - you could play it as control with lots of counters and removal, taking advantage of her ability to create board presence without paying for it. You could play it as combo with lots of ways to give flash and bounce your creatures. You could build it as aggro with anthems to buff your face-down creatures and try to overwhelm. The point is, you've got options. I really enjoyed my Feather deck - it shared a lot of the same cards as other feather decks, but it subtly emphasized different things, and I think it was better for it. There's still innovation to be had, even if the starting place is pretty obvious.

    And if you really want something a little less directed, it looks like the secondary commanders are a fair bit more open-ended.
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on C19 Another Bust?
    Agreed on both counts. 2017 was hardly my favorite year, but it was still miles ahead of this one. The odd number years are always a miss for some reason.
    2014 has the least popular commanders of any precon series, by far.
    2016 was the most popular, so you've got 1/3 right.
    2018 was the second least popular, and the lowest reprint value.

    You're complaining about the odd years?

    This set looks awesome to me so far, btw. Lots of cards that I've never considered for commander will be purchased. That's a good sign imo.
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on [C19] Fate extraction
    Quote from AnImAr_ »
    What is the food chain combo?
    hit food chain + squee, the immortal. Cast food chain for free, then cast squee from exile, loop him for infinite (creature-only) mana.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from DirkGently »

    wall, 127 aww poor walls.
    ...and then, after 26 years without a legendary wall, they announce one THE NEXT DAY.

    **** it, print a legendary kavu. I can’t even.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    I'd say arcades is more the wall commander than doran but you've definitely got some options. Ulrich I don't see - he's a fine card and obviously wolf-adjacent but he doesn't provide tribal synergy nor is he a wolf.

    More to the point, there are probably loads of types that do have legends but don't have tribal support from those legends - I think that's kind of the more important issue, personally.

    Wotc does seem to semi-randomly pick not-really-tribes like bears, spiders, and cats and give them tribal support legendaries every once in a while. It could happen for kavu, maybe. But it could just as easily happen for insects or whatever. Considering how long kavu have been out of the spotlight I think it's a longshot, personally.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from Drain Life »
    what is the established pattern? (regarding flashback)

    Mystic Retrieval + Runic repetition to loop spells is one.
    Discarding Lingering Souls to Collective Brutality and then still being able to use flashback to get value out of what was discarded. Deep Analysis is another example of a card which has been used this way a lot. Loot it early, flash it back later for value.
    Quiet Speculation combines a sort of "draw three" with a tutor and results in a 'not-so-broken' effect for 2U.
    Mystical Teachings for Teferi, then flash it back for Dralnu.
    Cast ritual spells into a Yawgmoth's Will or Past in Flames to do it again and do something powerful like storm.
    Playing mono black control and casting Chainer's Edict early to slow the aggro, then again later off of Cabal Coffers mana as you stabilize.


    You talk about how much you dislike Kess and that is fine, to each their own, but that doesn't change the fact that it would have been nice to see the new "flashback" commander just in Izzet (or even better Dimir) colors as an alternate legendary in the 99, rather than as a face commander. that way it could have been thrown into Kess or Mizzix or Dralnu (depending on what two color pair it had been given with blue). Similarly, I am still disappointed that the 2017 cats deck was only green and white. It is missing red. It should have been Naya. It could have supported Wild Nacatl, Titanic Ultimatum, the Boros Ajani, Firecat Blitz, and while the red cats are bad, it could have printed new good mono=red or multicolored cats with red in them. So, yeah, this is another commander where I look at the color identity and cringe a little at the wasted potential.

    But I think it's a little self-centered to say "Madness is not interesting." as though it was a statement of fact. Especially when your justification is that it wasn't seen in competitive constructed formats. So what? This is commander, the format where all those lost cards and mechanics that never quite worked in constructed get a chance to shine in the sun of casual multiplayer. Why should we care what worked in other formats? I happen to think madness is interesting, and I know I'm not alone.

    Oh, stop it. Especially the empty rhetoric in bold.

    We all know that this is the format where once unused and unplayable spells have become format staples, or at the very least found a home in a deck or two were they are a total gem. Decree of Pain became good because there times wen you would realistically cycle it, and games went long enough were you could hard cast it and draw a lot of cards. Weathered Wayfarer became good in a format where you can activateit in responce to fetchlands while having multiple opponents. Madness has no such cards. Nobody is going through Gatherer or Scryfall and digging up "hidden gems" like Abandon Reason or Brain Gorgers

    Madness and the cards which exist today would have already found a home by now. There are plenty of quality discard outlets to fuel madness if one wanted to. It is not as if those cards were waiting for the right commander, nor is there anything about the new commander which suddenly makes them viable. There is a big difference between building a madness deck and me using From Under the Floorboards in my deck alongside the likes of Liliana of the Veil, or Falkenrath Gorger in my Edgar Markov deck because it is a one drop vampire and I can accidentally cast some vampires after resolving a Wheel of Fate.

    I feel the need to repeat myself yet again when I say that Madness cards are built with traditional 20 life duels in mind, and even then, they were not good enough to make an impact. In a format where people do not even use Lightning Bolt, it is not as if a new commander is going to make Fiery Temper or Alms of the Vein any good.

    Nobody is going to see you cast Psychotic Haze or Gibbering Descent and think/say, "Wow, that card is so good in that deck!" or "Wow, how did you find that tech?" Are you kidding me? What am I missing? telling me to wait for what is printed would be laughable.

    What would have made Madness interesting is if the commander had had text similar to Falkenrath Gorger, except for all of your spells and/or made the cost 1BR or something else reasonable. If you could "rummage" (red loot) and cast cards which were granted madness, that would be a whole different world. It would likely end up being too good and too pushed, but at least it would not rely on a history of under-powered garbage.
    I can't say I've seen anyone do any of those things in commander, except cast Deep analysis I guess. And almost all of them either aren't legal or wouldn't be particularly synergistic with Savinne. So...what's your point exactly?

    Must you type "imo"? I think it helps clarify things, yes. You don't have to do it every time I guess, but I don't think you've ever done it. And while you can argue "well, obviously being uninteresting is a subjective opinion" you then throw out falsities like "2014 had a bigger impact on commander than 2018", which is a much more provable (or more to the point, disprovable) statement in the same breath. So yes, I'm going to take you at your word.

    Personally I think it's more interesting to explore new color options for mechanics that already have support. We've seen lots of UBR graveyard spellslinging whatever. Let's mix it up a bit and try something fresh. Then we might actually think outside the box instead of slotting it into an existing deck and going about our day.

    Hidden gems? How about glint-horn buccaneer and bag of holding? Ok, not exactly OP and not exactly hard to find, but you won't find those by searching for "madness" on scryfall. There may well exist other such cards that I can't think of at the drop of a hat.

    And sure, it's true, most anje decks that aren't trying to do some WGD combo, reanimator, or deck-cycling combo are probably going to share a lot of cards because there aren't a ton of madness cards, and there are even fewer good ones. But that doesn't seem to put people off, say, every tribal commander. It's also pretty trivial to search for "wizards with an etb effect" for inalla, and most decks for her also share a ton of cards. There aren't a lot of "hidden gems" for Inalla. It can be cool to have a commander that's open-ended enough that it doesn't dictate most of your decklist, but it can also be fun to find minor ways to improve a fairly dictated strat. I really liked my Feather list because it was just a bit different from everyone else's, and I think it was better for it - even if most of the "best" cards were the same.

    There are, ofc, discard outlets, but having it in the command zone is pretty critical imo if you want consistency. There are only a couple commanders in BR that let you discard, and none of them at instant-speed (theoretically olivia with a token producer or something with flash, but that's another hoop to jump through). Getting instant-speed AND a draw AND from the command zone seems like a trifecta of abilities to make madness at least semi-viable. Plus she costs only 3 and has haste. Madness has been done before with Olivia, but it's safe to say that Anje will provide much, much more support than Olivia does.

    Lightning bolt is a good card, even if people don't run it (it just doesn't usually go face). Fiery temper is legit great when you add on a functional cantrip. Would play all day.

    I dunno why "wait for what is printed would be laughable". They probably will print a bunch of strong madness cards in that deck. Why exactly is that laughable? I do honestly think that adding flash + draw + reduced cost makes even mediocre-ass cards like twins of maurer estate just fine. Imagine if there was a card that was a 2B flash cantrip 3/5. I feel like that'd see play.

    Giving other cards madness would mean people would play the exact same cards they already play, instead of cool, previously-unused cards from the past. Personally I much prefer wotc giving us commanders that make bad cards good, I think it's really neat, rather than cards that just intensify the power of already powerful things (Hi Kess). Morph, flashback, and madness have all been pretty bad in commander until now, so I think it's a great direction to go. I hope they continue this type of design for future sets. More Feathers, less Kesses.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    You're right that I misread Morophon, but there are 4 legendary Centaurs, 310 legendary humans, and 0 legendary Kavus.
    Do you just want any old legendary kavu? I was under the impression you wanted actual tribal support.

    ok fine then wolves. 49, no legendaries.
    plants, 48 no legendaries
    elephant, 57
    drone, 62, i didn't even know that was a type, damn
    lizard, 67
    drake, 88
    wall, 127 aww poor walls

    Ok apparently that many.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    Yeah, because paying WUBRG for these Kavu is awesome!



    Morophon is an Eldrazi commander, so you can cheat out fatties for 5 mana. There are only 3 Kavu who cost more than 5 mana, and they all cast 6, so Morophon is bad as a Kavu commander.

    If they can make a tribal commander for Bears, Scarecrows, and Ninjas, they can make one for Kavu. How many other creature types have 42 cards and no legendary? There are only 25 Bears, and they printed a Bear commander in a set that's twice as expensive and meant for Modern. There's only 32 Scarecrows and 22 Ninjas.
    Uh....I think you misread Morophon. He doesn't make you pay wubrg. You can stay in whatever CI you prefer. He has basically no benefit to the big eldrazi. And actually he makes some infinite combos with horned kavu. Ain't that neat.

    I took a total random flyer, my first guess was Centaur. 57 exist. No tribal commander.

    If you really want to go big, how about humans? The best we've got is sigarda, which is (1) not a human and (2) gives only hexproof, feh. And there are 2,277 non-changeling humans in magic.

    So how many tribes have no tribal commander and more creatures than kavu? Idk but probably a lot.

    I think the bear support was kind of stupid, but it's a funny meme basically. Kavu are too old for most people to care.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    Why can’t they print a Kavu commander?
    For the same reason they can't print a legendary antelope, badger, camarid, deer, or elephant - because there's a million creature types and they can't make a legendary for all of them.

    Also, while there is technically tribal support for kavus, it's really limited and really underwhelming in commander. You can make a fun commander around an underpowered thing, but at a certain point it's going to lose appeal to most players. How many people are actually going to want to run a bunch of mostly understatted vanilla-ish creatures for the big payoff of...kavu mauler? aggressive mammoth isn't even good, and that requires zero setup for probably a better result.

    This is exactly why Morophon was printed. Go build tribal with whatever crazy thing your heart desires.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from Drain Life »
    The 2018 were boring.

    I don't necessarily disagree, but that's just your opinion. I see a lot of jund and izzet ones at my local group, personally. And I think they did a great job on the secondary commanders.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    The 2019 decks look like they are going to be boring.
    I do disagree, and that's just your opinion. Which is fine. But they are boring *to you*. They aren't objectively boring.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    I am not talking about their power level or how competitive they are.
    I don't think what you've said supports that, but ok.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    Nothing about them seems like something I would suggest to a new player. Nothing about them appeals to me as an enfranchised player.
    I'm a very enfranchised player and they do appeal to me. And I think it's fairly insane, based on a couple spoilers, to say they would be a bad suggestion for a new player. They've said they're going to put a lot of reprint value in these, so at the very least I'd think you could wait until the full decklists are revealed. I think you're letting your own biases dictate what you think is best for new players. Different people like different things, man.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    Just because you can win with them doesn't make them good.
    In a sense it does. If I can win consistently with a deck, I'd say that means it's probably good. t least it's good in the way I care about - I'm pretty sure most people would lose miserably playing Phelddagrif, but I'd still call it a good deck. It doesn't make the decks interesting, I'll give you that, but that's pretty subjective.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    Just because they are not broken doesn't make them bad. Their uninspired and boring design makes them bad.
    On what basis do you consider them "uninspired and boring"? You cited Kess as a positive example, but personally I would say she's just a less complicated (and imo less interesting) Dralnu, Lich Lord. I'm really going to need some specifics on why these particular designs are uninspired and boring before I take this as a serious point and not just another way of saying "I don't personally like these cards" in a way that attempts to sound objective.
    Quote from Drain Life »
    Commander products in 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 all added something to the format. 2018 didn't add much it doesn't look like 2019 will do just as little or less.
    On what basis are you making that claim? In terms of popular commanders, 2018's Aminatou, Yuriko, and Windgrace have already massively outpaced anything from 2014 on EDHrec, and locally I've seen a lot of them as well. I think 2014 was probably the least successful year by a wide margin tbh, in terms of format impact. Other years all have more popular commanders, but they've also been around for longer so it's not exactly fair - I think they're roughly on track to be about average. Maybe a little below average, but not by a lot. If you want to complain about a year having a low format impact, 2014 is far and away the biggest culprit.

    And again, judging the entire set from the first spoilers. Why are you so eager to be pessimistic?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Leave // chance does get an interesting boost - you get to filter twice. I mean it's not amazing but it's kind of a cool hand sculpting tool. Fair enough on waves of aggression - it's only useful with vigilance or something. Which could be kind of a fun way to go with it, idk. But it's not, like, broadly useful.

    Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean, but I'm not aware of existing "play all the flashback/retrace/aftermath" synergy decks. Or at least none with a commander to synergize around them. Kess obviously plays as a flashback commander, but she doesn't usually run actual flashback cards, so it's a totally different set of spells (luckily there are no flashback time walks...) and a totally different angle to take on a similar concept. When you say "It is also hardly enough to justify building a flashback deck in a direction which differs from the established pattern."...what is the established pattern? Even if it's, from a broad view, a control deck, it's still going to be a control deck that plays different than others because it'll be running a lot of spells they wouldn't run, and caring about things other decks probably won't care about. Retrace in particular I think opens the window to follow a very linear gameplan around exploiting them - oona's grace for a draw-go control, Call the skybreaker for a janky wincon, reality scramble for potential combo shenanigans, throes of chaos in a similar way or just for chaotic value, or waves of aggression as mentioned with vigilance (+evasion, probably). 3 attack steps every turn is bound to add up. So idk, I think there's specific ways to build it, as well as a more generic control shell with flashback cards (which will still be different in less obvious ways).

    I build a ton of decks, obv (100 different commanders built now! woot!). And even with that many, it's still kind of hard to release a new commander that catches my attention enough to want to build it right away. None of the face commanders from last year did that - but Arixmethes did. I think he's very neat. As was xantcha and varchild, but I didn't actually get around to building them. I guess I'm just saying - just because a set doesn't have commanders that make me want to build them right away, I don't see that as necessarily bad design. There's a lot of legends out there, it's hard to stand out among the rest. I'm glad they aren't printing commanders more powerful than gitfrog, frankly. I mostly like the designs of these commanders so far, but idk if I'll actually build them. I don't think "will I build this right now, rather than the thousand other options" is a very fair metric to judge new commanders on, though. Especially when we don't know all their cards. Maybe there'll be a dozen amazing madness cards that will make anje legit OP, who knows.

    Personally I deeply dislike Kess and Inalla both. Kess's interaction with time magic I think makes her basically must-kill, which I don't like, and Inalla being almost totally un-interactable-with I think is a bad idea and it rubs me the wrong way. Whereas I think these commanders look fun. But that's just my opinion, I'm not arguing that there's anything objectively better about these commanders than kess or inalla. I think it's kind of strange that it seems like you do think there's something fundamentally different about these designs.

    Do you not understand the difference between a desire for power and a desire for something interesting?
    Of course, but I think we just diverge on what we think is interesting. Which is fine. I can definitely respect the opinion that a lot of these commanders are very straightforward to build - I daresay most kadena, anje, and to a slightly lesser extent savinne and ghired will be sharing a lot of cards. But it seems like your main dislike for them, especially anje, focuses mostly on how strong the cards they support are. "...that seems janky and trashy...30+ trash spells...Madness does not have scaleable spells which get better in multiplayer...They do not have higher end spells that are only useful in late game commander...They are a collection o spells which are often not even good enough for two player 20 life duels..." I don't know what else I would take away from those statements, except that your main complaint is that madness cards are too weak. Not too uninteresting, but too weak.

    You did bring up specifically "spells which get better in multiplayer" and I actually think Anje does ok in this regard, because she gives functional flash to the spells you're casting, which can be really good in multiplayer for a lot of reasons - it makes people nervous to attack you, it lets you conceal your position more effectively, it lets you cast things at the ideal time to avoid walking into board wipes etc. Not to mention the free cantrip. And there are some spells that scale ok into the late-game - from under the floorboards comes to mind. Eot make 10+ zombies gain 10 seems ok. I mean, not amazing or anything but interesting at least. Fair enough if that doesn't appeal to you, but it appeals to me.

    I don't really play standard often, but madness was just fine in innistrad limited. It's a fun mechanic that always feels like you're getting extra value, when you turn a downside like discard into an upside, especially when you can absolutely nail the timing of something and wreck someone out of nowhere. I expect I'll enjoy a similar type of gameplay with anje.

    Again - I don't have a problem with you just not liking the cards, that's fine. But I think it's a little self-centered to say "Madness is not interesting." as though it was a statement of fact. Especially when your justification is that it wasn't seen in competitive constructed formats. So what? This is commander, the format where all those lost cards and mechanics that never quite worked in constructed get a chance to shine in the sun of casual multiplayer. Why should we care what worked in other formats? I happen to think madness is interesting, and I know I'm not alone.

    Ghired is basically the opposite for me - it doesn't appeal to me, personally. It's not very interesting to me. But I'm definitely not going to say that it just isn't interesting, period. If that's your - or anyone else's - cup of tea, then go chase that dream.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Volrath, the Shapestealer (Let's Brew!)
    He can keep shifting, actually.

    One cute feature is his ability to immediately copy things that come into play with counters. For example Anthroplasm is kinda cute, if janky. Makes it easier to get to a nice round 10 for infect at least.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [C19] Rayami, First of the fallen
    Quote from FunkyDragon »
    Quote from Dragoon91 »
    So, what are the best "keywords soup" creatures we can think of?
    Atraxa, Praetors' Voice. I know you can't put that in a Rayami deck, but Rayami could go in the Atraxa keyword soup deck I've been thinking of making.
    You're going to exile your commander permanently to boost Rayami in the 99? Bold strategy.

    There are definitely lots of other reasonable white critters with good keyword soup for sure, though. And it makes it a lot easier to get double strike and good protection abilities.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Volrath, the Shapestealer is the first legend I want to make a deck of. I love cloning and counters and his ability satisfies both, except once activated you stay in that form until next turn. Even you stack the ability cleverly, once the chain is complete you stay that way. Regardless, 7/5 for five is nice too, three shots commander damage and will likely dig into Invisible Stalker
    "...and it has this ability." You can keep changing him to your heart's content.

    Damn, you're having a hard time today cyberium :p
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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