MTG Salvation

Here's a little general I've wanted to make a deck around for a long time:

Toshiro Umezawa

What I love about him is that he's incredibly tricky to play with and against. There's a million things to keep in mind when your whole graveyard is your toolbox, and a single kill spell can set off a cascade of instants. As usual, I like to build my decks general-focused, so the deck has a ton of instants and is very control focused. Basically zero creatures since you should be using removal, and the threat of removal, for defense. It's light on wincons, your main strategy is simple beatdown with toshiro once you've equipped him sufficiently, but you can also use liliana or beacon of unrest to use your opponents' threats against them.

As far as recommendations, I don't want to stray too far from the basic premise - lots of instants, lots of death. But I'm open to better ideas for wincons, mana changes, more ramp, etc.

Quote from veritoanimus

You get a for sure. I'm just not creative enough to come up with anything better at the moment. If you were to use your wholistic methods to explore the meaning of life and determine the cause of my lack in motivation, that would definitely earn a much better prize though

yeah i didn't really expect anything. I do spend too much time thinking about the color pie, though. a card with those costs would be pretty cool.

Quote from outbak

My MTGO client doesn't show any of the dual lands like that and never has. Additionally, the MTGO dealers like MTGOTraders.com don't show them like that. Maybe the problem, if you can call it that, is with magiccards.info.

http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/ME4_Taiga.html
http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/ME4_Badlands.html
http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/ME2_Underground_Sea.html

hmm, could be. all of their mtgo cards look like that though (with the small set symbol and such). where do they get their mtgo images, then?

edit: just figured this mystery out:

Quote from the "about" page on magiccards.info »

Luca has created the fantastic renderings of the four Master's Edition sets based on the MTGO cards.

false alarm, apparently.

again, the 2/x symbols don't add anything because you always have the option to cast them for 2. which means they add no additional color restriction to your mana cost. ever.

but if you're ok with only shards or only wedges, the following will work:

:symwu::symub::symbr::symrg::symgw: for wedges, and

:symwb::symbg::symgu::symur::symrw: for shards.

EDIT: so do i get a prize?

Quote from mondu_the_fat

Weird Al does not violate copyright --

his lyrics are all different
parody has special protection

hmm, doesn't seem that different to me, but again I know jack about copyright law so I'm not going to get into it.

again, mostly I'm pointing out that it's unethical, not illegal. and also just plain weird that wizards dredged up some thread on this very forum from 2006 when designing those cards.

Quote from Eberbacher

The mana symbols and the pictures are still trademarks of WOTC so anything that was done here, was not illegal, but using copyrighted material to create something new, won´t give one the copyright for what he produced.

In the End, copyrighted stuff from wizzards was combined to make something new, and some tiny little things were added to it.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not saying the artist should take legal action against them or whatever, obviously I like what wizards does, on the whole, or I wouldn't play. And frankly I'd love to have paper versions of those prettier duals, and the reserve list can piss off. I'm really just posting because i thought it was interesting. and even if it's probably not illegal, it at least seems unethical if they took his work and never informed or paid him.

EDIT: also, if that's true, then how does weird al get to make money?

clearly impossible. if you include any dual symbol, then if you've only got the 3 colors not in that symbol, then you can't play it. and if you include any 2/x symbols, then you can pay for it without any colors.

easy.

Quote from Ball Lightning

The underground sea symbol match and the taiga is nearly identical

true...and notice a lot of the stylistic decisions that are carried over. For instance, the normal skull has a crack on the upper left and upper right sides of his head. The UB skull from both arts, though, only has one on the upper right side. And on the badlands, above his right eye, there's sort of a double flame close together, which isn't present on the normal fireball symbol, but it's present in both the mtgo dual and the art one.

And the tropical island is maybe the most blatant, since the ripples don't look like the original water droplet at al, making it hard to believe they both had the same idea. same number of ripples even.

I just came across this a few minutes ago and it sort of blew my mind.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=22796

compare in particular the badlands skull to the one from the MTGO dual lands:

http://magiccards.info/me2/en/225.html

and note the dates...the thread hasn't been updated since 2006 and the mtgo duals are from last year.

Coincidence?

(and 5 gold stars to anyone who gets the title reference)

EDIT: just figured this mystery out:

Quote from the "about" page on magiccards.info »

Luca has created the fantastic renderings of the four Master's Edition sets based on the MTGO cards.

false alarm, apparently.

I've been doing a lot of drafts recently and finally accomplished my unofficial goal of having an INN draft deck for each 2-color combination (my RW went 3-0 last night to complete the cycle. I wasn't trying to push RW since it sort of sucks, but I got way too many good cards in those colors to pass up). Anyway, I like keeping my best draft decks (one of each color combo) together for casual play later, so I was thinking of getting real man sleeves for the "keepers" instead of the penny sleeves I usually use during drafts. BUT I'd like to keep them organized by color so I know which is which. Ultra pro (I think) has the sleeves with color symbols on the back, but does anyone have sleeves with dual color symbols (i.e. red and white, or a R/W hybrid symbol)?

Quote from Glimyrpost

The helvault can be opened post-tournament no matter what, if I am not misremembering an announcement.

link? the one I read said cryptically

Q: What if we don't unlock all of the achievements?
A: Your retailer has instructions for what to do in the event that achievements are not unlocked.

my big question is, who would want to do a NON-helvault prerelease? seems like this is going to really kill attendence at those ones. eh, whatever.

My big concern, on the other hand, is that we could end up in situations where you have the choice of winning the game or opening the helvault. What if one of the achievements is "someone never loses a game" and you're in the 4-0 match against a guy who hasn't lost any games while you have? do you have to throw the game for the greater good? or what if one is "kill a demon with an angel" and you've got a demon and they've got an angel...what if you've got to choose between suiciding the demon into the angel or winning the game? That would really annoy me, personally. Maybe everyone should just agree at the beginning of the prerelease that all the people who go 0-2 right off the bat should focus on getting the achievements so the people with a shot at the good prizes don't have to throw games. At least then you'd have fun things to do if you do badly, I suppose.

I wonder how popular these will be with EDH players? The downside to making new legends is that they see a lot of limelight and are really common and popular, since they're either in a new set (so everyone sees them) or they're in the commander decks, which are singled out for EDH players. But maybe these will actually be reasonably obscure new legends? I'm hoping so. As cool as the commander legends were, with everyone and their cat playing them it took away from the originality of building around them.

speculation-wise: W+R

I'm actually leaning towards chaos reigns being WBR. Why? Because of primordial hunger. primordial hunger is almost guaranteed to have green. very unlikely to have white. and ninjas is pretty much guaranteed to have UB or UBx. if the legends are a cycle of, one assumes, enemy triads. Which could mean ninjas is UBG (that being the only UBx enemy triad) logic be damned. primordial hunger COULD be UBG, but then it seems like it would sort of overshadow ninjas by sharing 2 of its colors, which hasn't happened in the previous planechase or archenemy decks (excluding the 5 color deck obv). So if hunger is an enemy triad, and it's not white, the only other choice is URG. We already know a deck has those colors, and although chaos reigns SOUNDS like it could be those colors, hunger is boxed in by ninjas colors.

So I think WBR for chaos reigns and URG for hunger, and as mentioned GUB for ninjas. Green ninjas IS a bit weird, but they have to be in UB or UBx, and if there's a cycle of legends which are enemy triads then that's the only option. In order for that NOT to be the case, one of the following would have to be true:
-ninjas aren't in UB or UBx (seems unlikely since they've ONLY been in those colors).
-the spoiled legend isn't part of the cycle (again, seems unlikely, but it is POSSIBLE I guess. that'd mean a LOT of new legends, though with a cycle on top of this one.)
-the cycle isn't enemy triads. this is possible but it would be, imo, a major mislead on wizard's part. and realistically, assuming the spoiled legend is part of the cycle, how could the other legends complete the cycle without being enemy triads? maybe they're all red with 2 other colors? that's just weird and unbalanced. seems unlikely.
-one deck has multiple of the new legends. possible, but again I say unlikely if there are 4 legends (assuming that doran fills in for WGB). You'd need to have 1 four-color deck and 2 3-color decks, and then one deck doesn't get a new legend (it'd be the ninjas one) while another gets 2.

That leaves savage auras in RWU which makes sense - UW is very aura friendly and R is savage. So I think that setup is very possible.

to reiterate, my prediction:

Chaos Reigns = WBR (chaos = R, reigns = WB)
Night of the Ninja = GUB (night = B, ninja = UB...of the = G...oh piss off)
Primordial Hunger = URG (primordial = UG, hunger = RG)
Savage Auras = RWU (savage = R, auras = WU)

I know people are balking at green ninjas but it's been a long time since kami and I can believe that wotc would want to do something new with them. and green is the color of hexproof, which seems ninja-y.

Quote from izzetmage

My idea for adding Gargadon is -4 Edge of Autumn, +2 Gargadon, +2 Ichor Wellspring. What sucks about Edge is that you don't cycle it until you combo off. With 2 more eggs, you have more opportunities to actually cast something early-game.

Street Wraith doesn't get reanimated by Second Sunrise - Sunrise states that cards put into a graveyard from the battlefield will be reanimated, and cycling Wraith means that it goes from your hand to the graveyard. If you're just using it because 4 Gitaxian Probe is not enough, keep in mind that Wraith and Probe do not fix your draws, and this deck plays no creatures otherwise, making you completely helpless to creature attacks, which will send your life total low enough that a "free" cantrip isn't worth the risk of being put in Bolt range.

EDIT: Gargadon deck:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Mana 21 4 Lotus Bloom 2 Mox Opal 3 Scalding Tarn 4 Ghost Quarter 8 Island Eggs 18 4 Conjurer's Bauble 4 Chromatic Star 4 Chromatic Sphere 4 Elsewhere Flask 2 Ichor Wellspring	Sac outlets 6 4 Reshape 2 Greater Gargadon Sunrise effects 12 4 Noxious Revival 4 Second Sunrise 4 Drift of Phantasms Wincons 3 1 Repeal 1 Pyrite Spellbomb 1 AEther Spellbomb

Drift over Peer here because Edge is replaced with non-instant/sorcery cards. Gargadon tends to make enough mana anyway.
I suppose Terrarion could be used over Ichor Wellspring, but as mentioned, Gargadon makes load of mana.
So far it seems better than my regular build because the Ichor Wellsprings ensure that I have something to cast, whereas when I played Edge of Autumn sometimes I'd get stuck with 1 egg, 1-2 Edge, no Sunrise hands. With Gargadon, one of the Edges could very well be an Ichor Wellspring.

Cool trick with Gargadon: 1 Gargadon on field, 1 suspended Gargadon. Sac Gargadon to Gargadon, Bauble in the dead don. You get a chance to suspend it again! LOL

haha, look who came over to the gargle side. And you were all skeptical a few pages ago.

I'm working on an instant-speed version with scout's warning, which works awesomely with gargle (see the rulings on quicken). Perhaps a lotus cobra build, since it would help with generating the mana needed to power out a shimmer myr so you can keep ramping up CA. a KCI build might work too (obviously it's a bit simpler since shimmer myr flashes KCI, and provides a sac target) but the initial 7 mana seems like a bit of a bear. Anyway I'll post a list when (if) I get it working.

Quote from UnderScore

I'm gonna test a deck with the Gargadon. I liked the idea

EDIT: Well, the Gargadons are obviously not for the KCI decks, they already have the KCI :D, and they also don't work on a non-kci build, because the only advantage they give us is the ability to sacc lands, but with ghost quarter and edge of autumn that advantage is rather useless.
So, at the moment I can't see any use for the gargadon.

well I'm glad someone at least gave it a try. gargle does overlap with GQ and edge of autumn a bit, but it also makes it easy to sacrifice all your lands with every second sunrise, so I still think it ought to return a significant amount of mana. of course GQ is a great way to recur lands, but it also keeps giving you more and more lands, so you won't be able to sac all of them easily without gargle or something. So I still want to try it myself before passing judgement.

another random idea: anyone ever tried using urborg, tomb of yawgmoth as a 1-2 of? Mostly I'm thinking so you can tap your fetches for mana after you've already run out of targets. Although then I guess they don't get sacced unless you've also got a gargle. oh well, just a thought.