MTG Salvation

no worries about the rambling, i can easily top that. maybe not right now though, since i have some actual work to get to

might add walk and mastery, however i was trying melek recently and the extra turns i felt got annoying for everyone else. probably less so in this deck, though, since they're more likely to equal a win. and they aren't doubled.

loam is a pet card of mine, as is intuition, as is setting up loam with intuition. I could see cutting loam if I feel I'm getting too many drops, but I do love the synergy with loam and exploration/burgeoning/oracle. especially oracle.

might add the magus of the future if i like the enchantment enough.

i can't believe greater good would be anything short of stellar, but I guess I'll have to see. food chain is an intriguing suggestion though.

DEN seemed good with all the etb effects running in the deck. seems worth a try at least.

i've used hellkite tyrant in my zirilan deck and it's always been insanely good there. I think it's at least worth a shot.

kiki-jiki could be cut. like DEN he seems insane with etb but maybe I've ovestimating how much I'm running.

Riku is mostly for the turn after wanderer. I mean, he has no instant board impact usually, but if he's forcing a removal spell that's really the most you can hope for most creatures.

mizzet seems excellent to me - immediately drawing a card, plus being an engine for more draw or removal later seems really good. And I think my mana can support the red decently. Zegana was on the list, but I worry that I'll spend my early turns ramping, then hit zegana off the wanderer and get an overpriced elvish visionary.

boundless realms got cut because i have so few basics.

ohran viper - i might be thinking this deck is slower than it is.
drumhunter - really? he seemed so cool. draw every turn and ramp too? i want to at least try him.
beguiler - she seems so nasty, though, esp with haste. i don't love molten primordial but i'll see how i feel about it after playing this deck for reals.
warstorm surge - but it's guaranteed 7 damage! plus anything else you hit! I dunno, it seems awesome for the same reason I don't like zegana.
adephage - yeah, just a fatty, but it seems like it'd get out of control super fast. i mean, next turn you swing for 14.
ragebeast - it seems cool to me, you'd get 2+ free kills, and it's a 6/6 to boot. I didn't want to run removal that didn't double as a finisher.
inferno titan i could see cutting, although he does seem powerful.
balefire - also been run in zirilan and seemed awesome there.
blatant thievery - why would haste matter? i like the option to hit any permanent, especially. it doubles as ramp.
thought reflection - ok, i'll cut it.
capsize - actually maybe i should cut this. i was thinking bounce wanderer to recast him, but i guess i'm unlikely to have 3 mana open for the buyback if i hit it off cascade.
mystic remora - again, might be thinking too slow. but i figured it's probably good for a few cards early, before most ramp, which is mostly in the 3+ range.
rhystic study - maybe cut this.
SDT - but it seems good.
brainstorm - ok, ok, but you always just do this right before you wanderer, and put the bombiest stuff on your deck. Right? that seems amazing for 1 mana.
magus of the library - i honestly thought this guy seemed awesome. I feel like, turn 1, land, turn 2, land, play him, turn 3, use him, play a land, ramp, turn 4, use him, play a land, ramp, turn 5, wanderer, use him, etc. I dunno, he seems like a strong draw engine for so cheap. and a lot of the other draw could easily refill the hand to activate him again. not to mention, tapping for mana means he's never irrelevant. He seemed really awesome to me, tbh.

ok, so that was pretty rambly anyway.

Quote from Kryptnyt

The strongest thing a Wanderer deck can do bar none is cascade into Jokulhaups, or similar, resolve it, and have a wanderer swinging on an empty board. The game is typically over if jokulhaups resolves, and still in your favor if your opponent is playing counterspells.

i thought about the haups, but my concern is that instant-speed removal means you're starting over from scratch and now everyone hates you and wanderer costs more. and it's probably really hard to use if it's in your hand. I'd rather using something like wildfire since it preserves your ramp advantage, but i couldn't find room for it.

Quote from Skye629

O another thing I forgot to ask, whats a good way to get a precon at or near MSRP? Like its insane how much last years Commanders products cost now

it wasn't hard to get them at or below MSRP for the first few months or so. There was a little bit of a freakout right at the beginning, but I was able to pick them up from LGSs for like 30-35.

This isn't an FTV or another arsenal. I'm sure wizards will make enough that they'll be available for MSRP, at least for a while. I don't recommend procrastinating too long, though.

Quote from dnLL

lol where is Cataclysm, it's almost as broken as Balance (which is banned) and a lot stronger than All is Dust

it's the best Wrath effect ever printed

Cataclysm can be great, but it really requires the right board position to be valuable. When I think of wraths, I think of cards that reset the game, not ones that lock it down, which is generally the point of cataclysm.

good call on some of the ramp, I forgot some of the stronger mana elves and land enchantments. Any idea what you'd cut for them?

sphinx of uthuun and knowledge exploitation were close to making the cut, but ended up getting eliminated. Which bombs would you eliminate for them?

harmonize, concentrate, and tidings all seem ok but sort of subpar compared to some of the other options. Is there anything you'd cut for them?

I do have a mana crypt in the list, you must have missed it. probably because the list has next to zero organization.

Quote from umtiger

I just don't think Diamond Valley is good enough, budget or no budget.

The best sac outlets lands are (no activation cost and produce mana):
Phyrexian Tower
High Market

Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).

3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.

Miren is....ok. I took it out of my build. The problem, basically, is that child is a nuke waiting to go off. Which means that you're holding the table for ransom - people won't want to play more permanents until it's off the table. All of which is great, except that if you should tap out of your sac outlet, then people will be VERY happy to take the opportunity to tuck child. And especially when you have a mana-intensive sac outlet like miren, backwoods, and a few other even worse ones I could name but forgot, people will save their tuck spells UNTIL you're tapped out. I've definitely had child tucked while having miren on the field but without the mana to use it - WITH couterspell backup. People tucked it twice.

So, if you want to use child for early control, dropping it on turn 5-6 with miren means people will probably tuck it ASAP before you untap with miren. As long as your sac outlet is no-mana-required, though, like market, tower, and valley, you can keep it available much, much easier, and avoid playing into tuck.

It depends on how much you want to abuse child, basically. If you're rarely using it, then maybe being able to use the land for mana is worth it. For my build, I always always always wanted a sac outlet ready to go, though, and 6 life is pretty amazing, making diamond valley an outstanding card. I'd rank it almost as good as tower, better than market, leagues better than anything that requires mana. But its strength does vary by build.

Quote from umtiger

I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.

Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.

Based on the fact that I imagine "Cauthon" sounds like "caution" as said by someone with a lisp, I vote for Norin the Wary.

Never read the Wheel of Time.

EDIT: if you prefer his first name, how about croMAT. Plus he puts himself on top of your deck, which is sort of cautious too. So the whole package, really.

Happy to be of service.

Quote from gromgrom

I'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. I like it over the 1 life sometimes. meh.

global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.

corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.


Maybeboard in order of want

• global ruin
  
• corpse dance
  
• Spitting Image
  
• Urban Evolution
  
• Consecrated Sphinx
  
• Bringer of the Black Dawn

I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.

corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.

child of alara without high market, diamond valley, or corpse dance? I don't get it.

also, with your mana base, global ruin is killer.

Quote from Foreigner

2) IP Argument: Proxying cards infringed in IP of WotC, and is unethical and possibly illegal.

This argument should be viewed in the context of the the routine manner in with so many people download and pirate movies, books, music, TV, etc.

Merit: I cannot come close to try to answer ethical questions around IP, but this argument should not be used by anyone who pirates stuff (ie basically everyone?)

I think you discount this argument a little easily.

I proxied cards religiously in college, and I don't regret it, because at the time I really didn't have any disposable income whatsoever, so it was either play with proxies or don't play. I also didn't pay for the music, tv, movies, etc that I wanted, because again, it was either that or I don't get them.

But now that I can afford to buy cards, I think it's worth it to support wizards, either directly (I play a lot of drafts) or through the secondary market. I also now buy all the music that I get (except when it's not available digitally...damn you, dark moor!) and television shows (except when it's not available reasonably...damn you, game of thrones!). I think it's important to support things that you enjoy, if you can afford to do so.

If you really don't have the money to spend on magic, then I'm fine with reasonable proxying. But I do think it's a little sleazy to enjoy the game that wizards spends a lot of time and money developing and not support that product financially, if you can afford it. I'll still play you, ofc, but if you've got the money to spend and you still proxy everything (or mostly everything) then I think it's a bit cheap on your part.

Budget:

if you want an optimal deck, this format can be very expensive. I've had several decks that were easily over $1K, and I eschew foils and foreign cards. BUT, this is a multiplayer format, which can be a great equalizer - in a 1v1 format, having an inferior deck makes a big difference. in multiplayer, politics plays a huge role, and it's easier to have a good political position if you're running janky cards than $100+ ones.

On top of that, many GREAT cards are less than a dollar. for instance, sylvan primordial is one of the strongest cards in the format and it's like 50 cents. You'll definitely miss out on some bombs, but you'll find no shortage of great cards on the cheap, and you can definitely have a powerful deck without spending a lot of money.

learning curve:

It can be steep, and it's infinitely long. Imo, that's one of the biggest advantages of the format - there's always more to learn.

The rules themselves aren't different enough to take very long to understand.

The number of different cards isn't TOO bad - it means it'll take a while at the beginning, but since there's basically infinite possibilities, it stops being as important/possible to predict what people are going to play. Eventually you'll pick common stuff up, but most people aren't going to know what's going to happen next, so you're usually on even ground.

Imo the longest part of the learning curve, though, is being multiplayer - there's an infinite number of ways to interact with that, both on and off the board.

New decks:

The usual time frame? Probably the last 3 weeks before they're released, but maybe they'll reveal more cards at certain events earlier than that.

The great EDH project continues! this time it's the first 3-color generals, and the one I fear the most: Maelstrom Wanderer. I usually prefer control decks, or at least aggro-control. This deck is just off-the-rails crazy ramp-and-draw-and-drop-bombs-like-it's-world-war-3.

This isn't my usual strategy, so if I missed any crucial bombs let me know. Or if I missed any powerful ramp. Or draw. Those being basically the only things the deck has.

Quote from NGW

You keep saying that as if it is true. Geth doesn't need a creature, an artifact works just as nicely.

Granted, but I was talking about how the decks react to grave hate, so generally the assumption is that it would eliminate all cards, and generally it's easier to get the ball rolling again by killing a creature for Geth. His ability to recur artifacts is usually irrelevant until you've milled them into the grave yourself. Geth's graveyard chaining doesn't usually start with an artifact, although it's ofc possible.

Quote from mgonzalez

This is definitely true, though it does cost 8 for the wrath instead of six, and people will be able to anticipate and play around it while it's on the field. Still though, you've convinced me to move it up.



In a lot of scenarios you're correct. Marelt brought this up too. But others (having a Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam or in a Jhoira of the Ghitu deck) will take you from a place of potentially being behind to essentially winning the game. You also give a great top 10 and I'll take those highly into consideration for my next update.

Well you can just set o-stone off immediately if necessary.

But the thing I love about o-stone isn't playing it on a field where I'm losing badly where it's just an 8 mana planar cleansing (which is still way better than planar cleansing, if only for the color restriction and recurrability), it's playing it on a field where I'm evenly matched or even a little ahead. Because then you can force your opponents to overextend MORE to force you to set it off, otherwise you just beat them on board, and in the meantime you can protect your own stuff from o-stone so that your advantage is insurmountable when you do set it off.

Personally I think it's pretty much required in any mono-black deck, and nearly so in any non-white deck. For white decks it isn't required but I'd still usually run it. It's not quite as ubiquitous as soul ring, but nearly so among my decks. It has a crazy number of advantages over almost any other wipe.

Btw, why is DoJ so many spots below ***? I have a hard time believing regeneration is really that important, very few playable creatures have it. Plus you can actually take advantage of regeneration yourself with DoJ, so ***'s prevention is a double-edged sword.

Quote from Throst54

Geth cant mill if there are no creatures in any yards to begin with. He is even more susceptible to GY hate. He will always have 1 less GY to use than chainer.

Every mono black deck needs a lot of mana doublers, it doesnt really matter the general... cabal coffers ends up being the real general.

Neither Geth nor chainer can do anything if there are no creatures in any yards to begin with. That's just the way things are. However, if the first creature in a yard is, say, lighthouse chronologist or something, Geth can use that as a starting point to hit better stuff, whereas chainer really can't.

As far as being "more susceptible to graveyard hate" - you're proving that the opposite is true when you point out that you're usually using your own grave with chainer. I think that's true, and from when I've played chainer and when I've seen him played, that's usually true. It's easier to get good stuff in your own grave. That's chainer's strength.

BUT when you're focusing more on your own grave, and most of your targets are there, a single tormod's crypt hurts a lot more. And even if you're using enemy graves by investing resources in discard/removal/mill, when someone uses a relic of progenitus it's going to set you back quite a ways because you don't have guaranteed access to more removal/discard/mill. Geth is barely bothered by tormod's crypt (plus it doesn't ONLY hurt him, it also hurts whoever's grave is being exiled), and while a relic sets him back, he makes it a lot easier to recover since all you need is 1 thing in the grave to get going. Plus he can just go to town as a beatstick, which chainer certainly can't. and ofc chainer is also more susceptible to removal.

Just to list it out:

Geth needs:
-lots of mana
-perhaps something to get graves going

Chainer needs:
-less mana
-something to get graves going
-something to prevent his important creatures being exiled by chainer
-maybe something to protect chainer
-some lifegain
-useful creatures to reanimate

Geth is just a much simpler deck, and that simplicity makes it reliable. It means that whenever chainer has to tutor for a sac outlet to prevent stuff being exiled, or a way to gain life to counteract chainer's cost, or buried alive to get stuff in graves, geth can tutor for another mana doubler instead. Geth doesn't have more mana doublers, but it can invest more resources to getting them because ALL he needs is mana. Not to mention, he can reanimate enemy mana doubling artifacts.

Chainer can do more broken things, because he can guarantee certain creatures will be in the game as potential reanimation targets, like the ones you mentioned, and with an explosive start he can reanimate bigger things faster and seal up a win. But he needs more things to work before he can really be abused, and it's much easier for things to go wrong with him because of all those moving parts.

Personally, though, if I wanted to abuse my own graveyard, I'd pick xiahou dun over chainer for sure. But Geth is more fun. Big, dumb, fun.