MTG Salvation

Hmm, so can he play lands? because it only says cast.

has anyone else noticed that pw ultimates seem to be getting weaker in m14 and this set? I have no problem with elspeth's ultimate, but it's only equivalent to probably a 5 mana enchantment. Compare than to original lili's ult, which is equivalent to a 9 mana sorcery, and she was a 5cmc walker, not a 6.

I don't mind the change, it's preferrable to the race against the clock to stop the game-winning ultimate.

Quote from JWK

Now, I should note that I personally be upset if things like Mana Crypt and Sol Ring were banned, though that would render my 25+ Sol Rings pretty much worthless. That won't fix the problem with EDH being a broken format, though. At most, it would make it a slightly slower broken format. Getting rid of Ring/Crypt won't stop Hermit Druid or AdNaus combos. What stops those is when the playgroup decides they're not cool with them. And I like that the RC leaves that ultimately to the playgroup, rather than forcing it via the banlist.

The RC has stated that they don't give a crap about the monetary consequences of the banlist, and I agree that it's not a good reason to ban/not ban cards. It's a ridiculous reason to keep the format unbalanced and shouldn't even be brought up. Magic is a game, not an investment.

I would see no problem with banning a few choice combo cards as well, and I don't think most people would.

Quote from ChimericPisces

Wiping out my opponents' hands in the early game has typically clinched the late game for me. By the time I cast Cabal Conditioning, I often have a 6-CMC permanent on the board.

if you've already got a 6-cmc permanent, then either 1) you had the mana available without lake of the dead, or 2) you sacked 3 swamps, in which case you almost (could have) had the mana available without lake of the dead. And especially if it's the latter case, instant-speed removal obliterates you.

You're really going to have to explain this math better.

Spawning Pool and Blinkmoth Nexus get around Lethal Vapors. Geth doesn't. My wildest dreams have been realized in grindy wins.

Then the people you play against must be exceptionally light in answers. I've run spawning pool before and always cut it. blinkmoth is decent but only if you're running a lot of equipment. You're running 2 relevant pieces of equipment by my count. I'd cut it. Especially in mono-black, most of your mana-doublers want swamps only, so the cost of running a nonbasic is a lot higher than the usual colorless/etbt and potential weakness to nonbasic hate. I would keep my utility land count as low as possible.

Ghost Quarter is a much-needed backup to Strip Mine in my deck.

Again, this is meta-dependent, but I'd much rather have some recursion/tutor that can hit strip mine if needed than GQ. I'd also run dust bowl over GQ.

Quote from FieryBalrog

Because it's much easier not to.

Sorry it's not EASY, but playing without a homogenized banlist in multiple groups with changing people is IMPOSSIBLE.

If that's what the current banlist exists for, why does the banlist need to change drastically?

I didn't say it did, I'm just jumping into the middle of this conversation. but as long as I am, ban sol ring! ban mana crypt!

Nope. If you want a format that's a homogenized competitive environment, like Legacy or Vintage, play one of the dozens of such formats that already exist. If I want a format that's local and non-homogenized... I'll play EDH as it exists right now. You don't get to change the format of EDH that already exists and then say "Hey, you can up with a replacement so no problem!"

I'm sort of ok with the banlist being non-competitive, but I don't see why having a crappy banlist is necessary for the format to be casual. Is the format greatly improved by keeping mana crypt legal? I would argue no. By comparison, I think recurring nightmare can be really fun if used responsibly. So I don't think the banlist is great for any particular purpose, but whatever, I don't care enough to really raise hell about it.

But seriously, if you don't want homogenization in the first place, why do you even give a crap what the RC says? just play however you want to play with your little buddies.

Anyway, I don't understand your statement - EDH already HAS a homogenized banlist that nearly everyone plays with, no change necessary. If you want to use a different one, go nuts, but it's you that's changing the format, not anyone else. If the banlist changes -as it already frequently does - then you can keep using the same banlist, no one's making you change.

Wrong. A format is a set of rules about deck construction and play. Are you going to make everyone who plays Type 4 follow a standardized Type 4 "banlist"?

how is a banlist not a rule about deck construction? I don't know much about T4, but if I wanted to play T4 with people I didn't know, then yes, I would want a standardized banlist. If the rules are nebulous enough that I can't expect a certain sort of game, then I simply wouldn't play, because I think that's a waste of time. That's why I quit playing 60-card-casual.

Quote from FieryBalrog

I really don't get it. The French 1v1 banned list already exists for those people who insist on treating EDH like a sanctioned, competitive format. Why can't multiplayer EDH be its own thing? Is it really too much to ask for a single mainstream format which isn't based on something to be played at sanctioned tournaments?

Do you know WHY EDH is so popular? One of the biggest reasons is that your playgroup defines the experience, not the global format metagame that defines Standard or Legacy. EDH is local and personalized.

If you are incapable of having fun with a local and personalized format, I suggest the answer does not lie in snatching the format away from the people who DO enjoy it. Rather, you might actually do something constructive and create your own. Like... oh, wait- Duel Commander.

This argument is a bit self-defeating. If you've got an established local group, then why do you care if the banlist changes? You can just house-rule the banlist however you like.

The banlist exists for people who play with multiple/changing groups and need homogenized rules so that people know what to expect.

If you want a format that's not homogenized, make your own format for your own playgroup that only exists there, be it modfieid EDH, or some crazy thing you create on your own. Homogenization is sort of what makes a format a format.

Quote from ChimericPisces

Lake of the Dead often means having access to Cabal Conditioning or Myojin of Night's Reach several turns ahead of schedule. Vesuva does nothing on its own.

Blinkmoth Nexus and Spawning Pool are win conditions; Ghost Quarter is a less expensive Wasteland; and Boseiju, Who Shelters All forces game-winning sorceries through.

I fail to see why casting cabal conditioning would be worth much if you've only had a few turns to put stuff on the board. And in general I wouldn't trade early-game explosiveness for late-game mana in a control deck, especially not mana that's likely to be doubled by coffers/guantlet/ghast/etc.

Spawning pool is a wincon in your wildest dreams. Normally it's an etbt land with a rarely-used upside that's harder to exploit with mana doublers. Blinkmoth is slightly more likely but still mediocre imo, especially with your low equip count, I'm only counting two relevant ones, and only 1 that has much chance of making it a real wincon. using it with sofaf is ok, but it's not like geth is a bad holder for the sword himself, and he doesn't require reequiping every turn. I'd be surprised if it was really worth equipping it to blinkmoth very often.

GQ depends on how prevalent gaea's cradle and the like are in your meta, but there aren't a lot of lands i'd want to lose CA and tempo to kill. Personally I usually don't run it.

Quote from ChimericPisces

What's the verdict, folks? Does the Shrine have a place in MBC alongside Cabal Coffers? Do Thespian's Stage and Vesuva suffice? Is the Shrine better than Vesuva? Stage? I'm wondering if I need to include the Shrine in this deck. I'm considering dropping Vesuva to make room. What are folks' thoughts on this?

I'd drop lake of the dead over vesuva, any day of the week.

but yeah, definitely run it imo. I'll probably slot it into any monocolor deck. esp with the new legend rules the downside is nil and the upside is potentially huge, especially for a mana-sink like geth.

EDIT: I'd also cut blinkmoth, spawning pool, ghost quarter, and probably boseiju.

Quote from Abrogated

This. Without knowing what the deck is that you're debating, we can't possibly come up with a realistic answer.

the only circumstance i can think of where boots is preferable is when it's a close-to-zero creatures deck that really needs to target the general with stuff. otherwise you can just move it around.

Quote from BEDERNDERN

the land is nowhere near as good as people are making it out to be. it is not the second coming of cradle or coffers. devotion balances it. you need legit colored permanents. tokens do not have a casting cost so they would not count towards devotion. it should net between 2 and 3 on average.. that is not coffers or cradle mana at all


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coffers doesn't tap for mana without conditions. same with cradle. That makes it way easier to slot in, even if you can't guarantee it being effective. While it probably won't be as much of an auto-include as coffers for mono-black, I think a lot more decks will run it. Even in a 2 color deck it'll probably be plenty playable.

Quote from Zero_MH

Gaea's Cradle it is not, it's Cabal Coffers for all mono color decks, it costs 2 colorless to activate so, yeah it's going in every one of my mono builds 3rd coffers for MBC

yeah, ok, that's fair. I definitely think it's going to be explosive in blue and black with some of the strong high-devotion cards they already run.

that land is going to be an auto-include in every mono-color deck from now until eternity. It's the next gaea's cradle, imo.

elspeth's nice too but nothing compared to that land.

Quote from Swift2210

token lists

you know what tokens are, right?

greaves by a mile, unless you have a good reason that shroud is a problem (for example, higure decks). The equip being 0 is a huge deal for haste. If you need to equip something, just move greaves around - it's free.

Quote from paragonweapon

How about the "1-card combos"

Genesis Wave, Omniscience, Exsanguinate, Deadeye Navigator

huh? none of those are really one-card combos at all.

tooth and nail is a one-card-combo. survival of the fittest is a one-card combo. Pretty much all of those require a pretty big build-around to get any "combo" out of them.

Quote from Bismuth Von Pherson

Am I the only one who's a little more reserved about the new aura? It's good, don't get me wrong, but I don't see how it's as broken as folks above are making it out to be. It's got two major strikes against it: 1) it doesn't return until EOT, negating any loops and 2) it doesn't protect itself (compare to Fool's Demise), meaning you can still stop it with good ol' Naturalize-effects.

what kind of idiot is going to play it without a sac outlet ready to go?

my comparison to fool's demise would be:

+++only costs 3
+++++recurs for free
++++can recur on each person's turn
-can't be used multiple times in a turn
--can't be used on enemy creatures (well)
-doesn't protect itself from removal

certainly it has downsides, but the recur for free is the nuts. It really makes my child of alara build ecstatic because i can easily cast it with counter mana up, and then keep counter mana up on subsequent turns. fool's demise was sort of a mana hog. Both cards' biggest weaknesses are instant-speed grave hate, and instant-speed removal, i don't see it being significantly weaker in any meaningful way. Sure, it's not great without a sac outlet, but any deck that wants to play this will have a reliable sac out. Who cares if it's mediocre for decks that weren't built to use it?