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  • posted a message on Feather - Heroic Combo and Control [Work NO LONGER In Progress (but input still welcome)]
    Quote from Onering »
    I like this concept. I'm looking forward to the finished cut.
    Thanks! I need to make some serious cuts first though. Also one of my friends want to try brawl, so I guess me and my gf are making brawl decks first. Although maybe I'll make a Feather brawl deck.
    Quote from Hawk7915 »
    I am addicted to Sunforger, so I am wondering why it isn't on your list? You've got a lot of niche cards for the 'forger to tutor. Heck, you even get to Sunforger Aurelia's Fury, cast it for X = 0, and buy it back with Feather which is fun.

    And I think you have room for it. Feather buys back every spell you cast, so I think running 46 instants and sorceries that interact with Feather is a liiiittttle overkill. I'd try to winnow it down to my favorite 30-35 so that you can boost your creature count and also run a few more sweet utility cards like Sunforger.

    I also wonder if Launch the Fleet is worth running in your list.
    Sunforger is (or at least has in the past been) my favorite card, so it's kind of shocking that it's not included, but I don't think it makes a ton of sense here. Mostly from an efficiency point of view - it's 8 mana before it does anything major, and most of our spells cost 1-2 mana. Not an amazing bang for buck. Even the 3RW per spell afterwards is pretty rough. Until proven otherwise, I want this deck to be a low-curve, smash-and-grab deck that comes out swinging and doesn't stop until everyone is dead.

    Also, unless you have evidence to the contrary I'm pretty certain that aurelia's fury does not return when cast off sunforger, since you can't assign 0 damage to a target with a "divided as you choose" spell. You'll have no damage and thus, no targets, and it will be dumped into the graveyard.

    Launch the fleet is potentially interesting but the fact that I have to attack throttles the utility imo. If I were doing an all-in token build then I'd consider it more heavily, but I'm not so I didn't. I don't actually have many creatures, so in a lot of cases I won't have many targets. Also I value instants over sorceries by a lot, especially those that want me to pay a bunch of mana into them.

    If I decide I have too many instants and sorceries (which is possible...but there's a variety of things I really need to reliably have, like draw power, protection, and removal, all ideally in multiples, sooooo) I'll probably end up putting in cards that do very efficient things without mana investment. Put bluntly, sunforger is a great mana sink, but Feather turns this entire deck into a much, much more efficient mana sink. That's why I'm running stuff like firestorm that let me turn card resources into a very efficient mana-wise win, when I'm flush with cards and short on mana. The other sorts of things I could see including would be stuff like dragonmaster outcast that do a lot of work for a small mana investment. Rather than sunforger, which does a ton, but requires a ton of mana at the same time.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Feather - Heroic Combo and Control [Work NO LONGER In Progress (but input still welcome)]
    Quote from ISBPathfinder »
    My point being more along the lines of:

    • Most of the creatures in this deck don't kill anyone / accomplish anything quickly. It takes them a while in play to build things up. Sure most of it is cheap but it seems like its built on the back of setting up feather, multiple creatures, keeping spells up and never letting someone remove you from the board. The +1/+1 guys seem frail and slow to build up and I don't see a lot of synergy for the token stuff other than Zada / Mirror Dragon.
    • You can't protect your creatures from everything. Different protection effects have different weaknesses. Sac, Exile, Tuck, and -/- sweepers are all still things. I always assume that regardless of what I do someone will find a way to interact with what I am doing. In different metas different types of cards have different popularity but its worth noting that a lot of this protection is situational. Beyond that, its hard in the early turns to set up, draw cards, and have redundant protection up at all times.
    Well, it may not be advisable to go balls-out as quickly as possible, but play it a little safe, both to keep up protection and to avoid drawing excessive hate. That's part of why I have a lot of 2-cmc rocks, to maximize my ability to protect Feather T3. That's also why the deck runs a lot of control, so I can keep myself in the game even if things don't work perfectly.

    Of the +1/+1 counter guys, only 2 don't also contribute in other ways. Those 2 (hero and skyguard) might end up not being worth it, but I think there's still real potential for creatures that can grow that quickly and permanently, especially with how much protection we're running. Does that make them literally invincible? Well, no. But aggro never wins if control has the right answers at the right time. Aggro wins because they frequently don't, as long as aggro can put enough pressure on them that they don't have time to find them and cast them. playing hero on 3 mana into feather on 4 means you could easily be swinging for 10+ with the hero on the next turn and 20 by turn after that, while still keeping up protection and drawing cards at the same time. Have an answer, the right answer, right now, or die.

    And it's also worth pointing out that, generally-speaking, whoever's throwing out removal has to pay for their mistakes. If they aim targeted removal and we have protection, or a board wipe and we have indestructible, then those spells are just getting countered and they don't get to try again. If they have something we can't protect against, then fine, but we haven't wasted our protection and it'll likely come in handy next time.

    But only time will tell, I suppose. Feather is unique enough that it's hard to speculate with any certainty.

    For tokens, there's mirrorwing, zada, phalanx leader, A+C...monastery mentor and golem provide their own support...and of course, they still attack and block just fine. With a couple token producers we could be spitting out 10+ power per turn cycle without any support at all. And since many of our spells help us draw/scry through the deck while making those tokens, hitting a way to support them doesn't seem unlikely, hopefully around the time we want one. The main reason for tokens is simply that they're all fine cards on their own, and go fairly ballistic when put together in the right ways. But that's why I haven't included cards that don't do anything without tokens (such as skullclamp).

    The way I see it, if you have feather and you're casting targeted spells for draw/scry (which I assume will be the primary play pattern for most versions of the deck not going for ASAP commander-damage kills) - most of those spells don't do much of anything on their own. So if you don't have something that cares about being targeted, you're just losing that value. young pyromancer is no better than an overpriced akroan crusader if you don't have anything that cares about being targeted.

    I'm also going pretty low cmc, which is why I cut some arguably more exciting heroic creatures like labyrinth champion. After playing this we'll see how I feel about the speed and play patterns of the deck, and whether it's worth focusing on more impactful heroic creatures and playing a slower more control-oriented game, or if the deck should aim for a fast win off quickly ratcheting up heroic creatures before someone finds an answer.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Like "why is narset always such an annoying piece of crap?"

    Eh it's probably fine.

    Way more excited about return to nature. Get in my Phelddagrif deck, stat!
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength
    Cheer up boys! Sure, this set has had mostly bupkis for our fine flying hippo, but today I bring you...

    return to nature (1G instant, destroy artifact, enchantment, or exile a card in a graveyard)

    Ok, so it's not exactly a revolutionary new draw engine, but it probably makes the cut basically always. Naturalize was always just a liiiittle too narrow to tempt me.

    Also, blast zone maybe makes the cut. It's cute, but damn if those utility land slots aren't contentious.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Without a dedicated legendary creature, amass has no sense in commander
    Amass totally has a commander...the army we always had but never knew...
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Need advice on a Karona build.
    Couple things:

    1) generally you're supposed to put decklists in the decklist area. Maybe ping a mod and see if they'll do that for you.

    2) having cards separated by type rather than function makes it hard to see what the deck is doing, and what the purpose of a lot of the cards is.

    So with #2 in mind, it's possible there's some overarching strategy that I'm not seeing, but just a glance it seems pretty haphazard.

    There's a plan to use karona and to pillowfort so she doesn't smash you...unfortunately, this is by-and-large a very weak plan. If it's doing well enough in your meta then don't let that dissuade you, but in the grand scheme of power level, I wouldn't call that the plan of a 6-7 deck, I'd call that a 3-4 at best. She doesn't have natural evasion, or protection, and without riot gear she dies to a sac outlet. You have a ton of slots dedicated just to trying to prevent you from getting killed by your own commander. I don't even see anything in the deck that forces an attack. Your opponents could just ignore her (and would be well advised to do so, if you're in the lead).

    The rest of the deck seems pretty random. There are powerful cards, but they aren't really contributing to any larger plan so far as I can see. I imagine this has mostly come about because the karona plan is rather weak so you're trying to make up for that by having a lot of fairly standalone backup plans, but it has the result that your deck mostly looks like a goodstuff deck without a cohesive strategy. I'm really confused why you've got coffers + urborg in a 5c deck - they're both awful cards (especially coffers) without the other, and I don't see many big payoffs for generating a ton of mana, nor many tutors for either of them. Some moderately expensive stuff, sure, but I can't see why replacing coffers with, say, thran dynamo or something wouldn't have a similar utility.

    Unfortunately, if you want to get to an ACTUAL 7-8 level deck...Sorry, but you can't really get there with Karona. I mean, you can, but it won't be a karona deck, it'll be a 5-color combo/control deck with karona in the command zone (where she'll remain).

    I'm guessing, however, that your meta is actually lower powered than you realize, since it sounds like you're not doing terribly(?) with this deck. In which case, you don't actually want to get to a 7-8, you just want to get to a 6 or so. And THAT might actually be doable without making any massive changes.

    For starters, the manabase needs a lot of work. That's where I'd invest first and foremost. There are lots of solid duals in a $1-$2 range, so pick up whatever you can. Ditch stuff like unknown shores and shimmering grotto at the earliest opportunity. If you're committed to keeping the manabase super-budget-friendly, then I'd focus most heavily on green (so have lots of forests and as many G/X duals as you can) and run more green ramp spells that can fix your mana for you. That's about the only way the "mostly-basics-five-color" manabase is going to (mostly) work, imo. Hopefully then you can also ditch do-nothings like joiner adept.

    If you want to commit to the enchantment theme, I'd commit harder. Run some enchantresses, put in some backup plans like uril the miststalker and tuvasa the sunlit that synergize with your plan, rather than doing something totally unrelated like king macar or wrexial.

    If you want to commit to the voltron theme, invest in some of the good equipment, like the swords of X and Y, umezawa's jitte, fireshrieker, that sort of thing. Put in some manlands who can wield the weapons too (especially the dual manlands), and some efficient double strikers as backups. Maybe consider some strategies to force karona to attack as well.

    If you want to commit to the ramp theme, then I'd include a lot more ramp spells, more good payoffs, and more mana sinks. Something like capsize, torment of hailfire, genesis wave, villainous wealth, etc.

    Probably pick one of those directions and commit to it.

    Besides that, I'd include a few more answers. If you're going enchantress then oblivion ring, imprisoned in the moon, song of the dryads etc. If you're going ramp, then you can include some bigger, splashier answers like blatant thievery. Generally-useful stuff like swords to plowshares can go in any version.

    With one of those builds, you should be able to get to around a 6, I think.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Victim on Night
    I usually run it in my zirilan builds, if they're interesting in sacking and recurring dragons. Mostly because sac outlet options are limited. Having a free sac outlet was especially critical during the tuck days, because the deck basically scoops to zirilan getting tucked, so if you wanted to play it safely on 5 mana you needed a free sac outlet. Still an issue with song of the dryads, though.

    These days it's still fine. Rarely do I need to sac more than 1 creature a turn, so it gets the job done. Not fancy, but there are only so many free sac outlets around (although the free part is less important).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Feather - Heroic Combo and Control [Work NO LONGER In Progress (but input still welcome)]
    I think in most cases the spells we'll be casting most often - stuff like panic and heal do not care where they're pointed, and feather definitely doesn't care if they're pointed at her. So the bonus we get from targeting a heroic dude is basically free. So - to a certain extent - we can probably analyze the heroic dudes as though, rather than having a heroic ability, they had a "two times every turn or so" ability.

    So to run down the list...

    tenth district legionnaire - adding a scry to every cast is a pretty big freebie, plus it grows quickly. I think the scry puts it over the top, though, along with the low cmc.
    akroan conscriptor - I don't love the high cost here, but the ability is pretty bonkers when used at instant speed since you can keep smacking people's creatures into each other, or go for a sweet alpha strike. It's possible it will end up being too slow and expensive if the deck is fast enough, but in a slower control game it seems busted.
    akroan crusader - makes tokens, which amplifies a lot of our later combos. Plus it's super cheap.
    akroan skyguard - this is the only one I've left in from the "just gets counters" club, primarily because it's cheap and evasive, and I'm guessing it's the most contentious. If it's growing by +5, +6, +7 every turn cycle that seems to me like the sort of thing that's going to be a serious win condition personally, but it may end up being too slow.
    anax and cymede - they enable a lot of our token strategies and are also just pretty strong on their own. Also helps with feather lethals.
    elite skirmisher - not as spicy as conscriptor, but it only costs 3 and you can eliminate multiple dudes from combat each turn like a citadel siege on steroids. Might end up being irrelevant in a meta where combat is irrelevant, but I usually assume it will not be.
    fabled hero - with the double strike this seems like a fairly fast way to win, once it's a 10/10 which could happen pretty quickly. The lack of evasion might make it bad? But we have tools for that too.
    phalanx leader - I think basically everyone is running this guy, not much needs to be said.
    vanguard of brimaz - also enables token synergies

    and that's basically all of them.

    I think the only ones that are really contentious are probably(?) skyguard, skirmisher, and maybe fabled hero? anax and cymede might end up being a little underpowered since the buff doesn't stick around, but we don't have a ton of great enablers for tokens so I think we should take what we can get (plus the trample is fairly hard to find in RW). We're still talking about a functional 5-pt overrun if not more. There is a solid chance we should be running serra ascendant, since it compares roughly with something like skyguard and gets going faster. I want to test the deck and see what ends up being the primary wincon. But skyguard and skirmisher I think can both pretty easily knock people out basically on their own, especially with how much protection we can offer them.

    Quote from ISBPathfinder »
    I also question the heroic triggers somewhat heavily. These are like.... limited level creatures we are trying to make do things in commander. They are slow to pick up speed and require a lot of very specific building and time to make them do things. I just feel like it might be one of those things where it takes too many cards to set up and make it do the cool and funky thing you are trying to get it to do.

    I think its cool, I just think that it takes a lot of setup and the payoff might not justify the complexly to assemble.
    Well, it requires feather. And...targeting spells? Feather is a 3-cmc commander in a deck with tons of ways to protect her, and almost half the deck is targeting spells (although some won't work for obvious reasons...but still easily half the nonlands work just fine). I guess I don't get what you mean as far as setup. These seem like highly redundant combos with relatively few moving parts. If multiple removals get pointed at Feather every time she comes out then we could be in trouble, but I don't think it's reasonable to build this deck to withstand that level of hate. Historically boros has gotten by, when it does, primarily by being evaluated as a lesser threat and not drawing too much hate.

    It does occur to me that this deck should almost certainly be running more fast mana, like mox diamond and chrome mox. Once we're in full-on combo mode the downsides are negligible and it'll help us get to that point ASAP. Might even be worth including some rituals too.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Victim on Night
    I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but do you really think vryn's is the best? I think it's a bit wrong to say that the floor is a looter - the flip is not optional, if you want him to stay a looter you don't have that option. If you're sitting on a grave with no spells to flashback, and enemies with boards that will easily kill him once he flips...I'd much rather have a regular ol' merfolk looter in that situation.

    New jace pisses me off. Lab man is already annoying as butts. Hard to say how jace will compare, but it's not my idea of fun.

    Personally, new jace aside for now, I don't think any of the jaces are particularly great. Blue planeswalkers in general tend to either be underwhelming in fair decks, or they're locking down the board with stasis or something in which case, sure, they look good then. I much prefer white/green/black walkers that hold their own without degeneracy. Most of the mono-blue ones just have a bunch of boring draw abilities.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Lie about proxy?
    Quote from Helnas »
    Tbh i dont think i could pull your deck off yet.
    When i have a removal spell i want to play i usually ask the players what i should remove it on, who is the biggest treath ect. Maybe in a few months of actively playing.
    Yeah, fair point, it might be a lot for a newer player. Still, I'd be a bit wary of the quarters decklist, it looks really ineffective in any metas that are more advanced than play dudes and attack.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Feather, the Redeemed + Arcane Arts (Let’s Brew!)
    monastery mentor in particular seems like a wincon all on his own. Makes dudes and pumps 'em. Doesn't even need to be targeted.

    I see sort of a handful of directions:

    pure voltron, focusing on 1-2 cmc buffs and protection, and trying to knock people out of the game ASAP.
    heroic/cast synergy, focusing on 1-2 cmc spells with multiple targets and/or draw to get value while casting your spells.
    control, focusing on spells that can target enemies and friendlies at the same time to control the board

    And the more niche directions:
    arcane, focusing on arcane spells
    blink, focusing on the blink spells with etb creatures for synergy
    burn, mostly focusing on any number of target burn to repeatedly burn people down

    And then there's a few cards like mirrorwing, zada, precursor golem, and monastery mentor that sort of provide a wincon on their own, along with stuff like heal that probably merits a spot in any build.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Huatli, Sun's Heart
    Quote from Manite »
    Arcades allows your Walls to attack anyway, so what's the problem?
    What? If you have arcades in play, huatli is just redundant.

    I don't get the interest in running this in arcades. If you're playing arcades and he keeps dying, play more ways to protect him, recur him, etc. Don't play worse versions of his effect that do nothing while he's alive. That's just planning to fail.

    Not only does this not let defenders attack, it also doesn't draw cards, AND it requires defending. It makes no sense in arcades. Maybe it could have a place in something like sidar kondo of jamuraa though.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Feather, the Redeemed + Arcane Arts (Let’s Brew!)
    I don't get why sad bot would be an auto-include. I mean, if you're focusing on a blink build them fine, but for any other build it's just a decent value creature that's been getting increasingly obsolete with each passing year. I think Feather can do better. Ramp is the relevant part, so run efficient ramp, not 4 mana for 1 land. The draw is almost irrelevant in a deck that turns every cantrip into a draw engine.

    Same thing for sun titan and knight of the white orchID to be honest. Solid cards, absolutely make the cut for a goodstuff RW deck, but this isn't some middle-of-the-road goodstuff deck. This is a highly-focused deck. The knight might make the cut as a functional 2-cmc rock that provides colored mana, but sun titan seems way too slow. And what are you recurring in this spellslinger build anyway, fetchlands? We don't need some trash-tier wannabe primeval titan. When RW plays goodstuff it gets wrecked because its stuff just isn't as good. But Feather is good. Let go of the goodstuff mentality and embrace the synergy.

    (btw if anyone wants to check out my heroic combo build in my sig, I could use some help cutting down the list)
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Why is it so hard to get feedback on decklists?
    Quote from illakunsaa »
    If a list resembles something that was copied from edhrec then I think most people know how the deck operates If they know how it operates then what is the point to comment?
    What? That's the opposite of what makes sense. If you know how a deck operates, then wouldn't you be in the best position to give constructive feedback about how to improve it?

    Also I don't 100% know what you mean by "copied from EDHrec". If you mean copied from one of the decklists listed for that commander, then while that's a lame way to build a deck, it would presumably be as creative as whoever built it first. And if you mean built by copying the most-played cards for the commander, then in many cases it wouldn't have a clear strategy because it would be using cards from multiple builds haphazardly, like combo pieces from FCT and random value allies in the same deck, so it wouldn't be clear at all "how it operates".
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Spark Reaper (Andrea Mengucci Preview)
    Quote from GhostMaker »
    I dislike these kinds of flavor texts.
    Hey, phelddy twins!

    Also yes, mtg sucks at snark. It's hard to do well, and they do it so so badly.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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