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  • posted a message on Fists of Flame, or "why developing specifically for EDH is making the format worse"
    I think a way better example would be expropriate. Maasaybe wotc primarily made it for draft (unlikely for mythic), but most likely for commander I think most would agree. And it suuuuuucks.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Worst Commander
    I gotta take a personal stand for pang tong, “young phoenix”. How many ways can a commander be strictly worse than a common?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Newbie need help with rules
    You’re probably better off posting in magic rules if you’ve got questions. But I’d recommend reading the rule book, or better yet play mtg arena, which will coach you through the rules as well as enforce them.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Protecting Krenko, Mob Boss from Enchantments
    sanctum of eternity is your man. One of the very few answers that doesn't require being on-board before the enchantment is cast.

    You can also play gobbos that let you sac other gobbos, like skirk prospector or goblin sledder, which are already good enough to run. Obviously this needs to be on-board before the enchantment, though.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on evaluating Adventure creatures in Commander
    The difficulty in abusing them usually means they aren't worth abusing. But they can still be ok just plan value creatures/spells. As mentioned, murderous rider is better than heroes downfall in most cases, so it's at least decent. Giant killer also looks ok as his body is relevant as well as the spell. brazen borrower is probably not worth it...except in sygg, river cutthroat where a 3-power hard-to-block 3-drop with upside is generally going to at least be in contention.

    bonecrusher giant probably doesn't make the cut anywhere since its spell is too weak, and its body isn't that exciting in commander. maybe giant tribal or something.

    There's also...

    Smitten Swordmaster might be worth it as a big drain spell for knights tribal, even if the body isn't exciting.

    realm-cloaked giant is DEFINITELY going into that giant tribal deck.

    embereth shieldbreaker is a decent artifact removal spell, though personally i'd much rather have instant speed than a goblin piker for later.

    beanstalk giant is pretty good on both halves. The ramp spell isn't overpriced for the effect (strictly better untamed wilds!), and the upside of a large creature later is pretty good. Nothing that will be super competitive but for new players it kind of does it all, if not in a particularly exciting way.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Anje Falkenrath is a failure of design and one of my least favorite cards after playing with it
    Quote from Carthage »
    General tazri supports a tribal ally strategy innately. Every bit of text on the card is supporting an ally tribal strategy. If you show a newer player general tazri that's what they'll think the card is about. You can build a general tazri deck taking full advantage of its abilities and not even think of including food chain combos.

    Anje is not this way. Within seconds of reading anje's text almost every player is thinking "so I run every madness card that's legal as a redraw to good cards". That's what the card was clearly designed to do, and it ends up being miserable in practice.

    It's like saying "you can just not run wheels in leovold" yeah but in practice everyone is running wheels in leovold. (I am not saying anje is banworthy)

    Or to take it to a bigger extreme, you could not run wheels in a nekusar deck, but then why are you playing a nekusar deck?

    Generals lead you to deck construction decisions by what they support, nekusar supports wheels, titania supports land sacrifices, karlov supports life gain triggers. Anje supports playing the equivalent of a 20 card deck. The deck anje was clearly built to be the commander of, is not fun or interesting in the slightest.

    To put it another way, you don't just have to make the deck weaker, you have to go and deliberately exclude synergy with your general to make room for weaker cards with anje. That's not good design. It feels awful to do this.
    Sure, I thought about being able to use her to cycle the deck, but tbh there's a few pretty limiting factors: for one thing, you need the mana to actually play her, none of which has madness, and thus you have a solid chance of bricking well before you hit the combo if you draw too many mana sources. Two, the combo itself is very easily disrupted and BR has weak tools to prevents its disruption, and also the combo being disrupted almost certainly means you lose the game.

    In short, I think WGD is certainly the most likely build to be popular in cEDH circles, and anje is most likely of the 2019 commanders to see cEDH play (as I predicted when she was spoiled) but I don't actually think the build is very good except for a surprise kill when people assume you're playing fair.

    While cycling cards "for free" sounds great in theory, in practice it will usually lead to mana-flood because some amount of your deck has to be mana, and madness cards can't count towards those slots. And if Anje is countered or killed they are no longer free cycles. Unless you're on this go-for-broke combo plan, the risks don't seem worth the rewards to me.

    Besides that, many players won't play that combo just because they don't find it interesting (myself included). Many niv players don't run curiosity for the same reason. Looking at EDHrec, the lowest inclusion madness cards I could find had a little less than 30% inclusion. Safe to say, then, than 70% of players are playing her "fair" i.e. they aren't just running every madness card to cycle their deck, but only the ones that might actually cast.

    I think if you build the deck without WGD combo or some other combo, even if you do cycle madness cards without casting them a decent percentage of the time, you will still want to cast them at least occasionally. Is that an ideal play pattern for the madness tribal commander? Idk, it would have perhaps been better for her to incentivize casting rather than just discarding, but it's also kind of nice to get a real choice and not just mindless value, i.e. chulane. Sometimes you'll want to use her to cycle. Sometimes you'll want to use her for value.

    It's also worth pointing out that Anje can work with madness is a more interesting and fair way by using mass reanimation, which is kind of cool and actually uses the madness cards, even if not by casting them.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Tricking attractive people into playing magic
    Quote from buffntuff »
    You want to make a woman go to FNM? To a room full of dudes with varying level of social skills who will invariably spend the entire night treating this woman as a weird object? You're right that she's not going to have a good time. I straight up stopped going to releases because I am exhausted by men and all their weird *****, let alone the extra competitive dudes who get extremely uptight about winning 5 packs or whatever.

    Look, it's a systemic issue that's not going to be solved by you and it's not going to be solved by pushing your S.O. into uncomfortable situations. It's not because there's anything inherent about women or men and this card game or any game, it's a bunch of historical prejudice that arbitrarily assigned certain attributes like "competitiveness" to arbitrary measurements of genitals and hormone levels. Women will self-select out of these kinds of things for the same reasons dudes will buy large trucks or watch sports even if they're not really invested in either.

    That said, this isn't the 90s and more women are playing magic now than ever. They're just playing it with their non-judgmental friends or anonymously online now that there's a decent internet version of magic.
    You said "do what you like and invite them to join". My usual magic diet is FNMs (and other drafts during the week if available), usually a night of commander (in a public group), and occasional GPs/PTQs/all-day-prerelease-weekends. Of those, if I'm just inviting them to join, I'd say FNM is probably the most accessible. If I wanted something more accessible to make it more appealing for them to play, I'd have to do something outside of my usual magic diet, which means putting some thought into what might appeal to them. Which is the subject of this thread.

    I'm sure it varies, but "invariably spend the entire night treating this woman as a weird object" has not been my experience. Most people are totally fine. Some people are slightly weird. Once in a blue moon someone is actually rude. I don't know that it's so different from going to a bar, though.

    My ex used to go to quite a few magic events, and although she stopped being as interested in magic for the last year or so of our relationship (which is also when she became less interested in me, ZING!) she enjoyed doing 2HG prereleases with me pretty consistently right up to the end. We had very few bad experiences with people (possibly because it's more common for SOs to come to 2HG so people are more used to it, or possibly because no one was operating under the hope that she was available). Unfortunately I never really liked 2HG magic, but I put up with it to try to get/keep her invested in the game, and of course to spend time with her etc. Ideally she would have gotten into commander but the card pool was too overwhelming. I'm crossing fingers that brawl takes off for that reason.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Tricking attractive people into playing magic
    Quote from Sephon19 »
    When dating someone, Magic is something I reveal/properly introduce after a while, and they don't give a ***** by that point. I have actual bad things to scare them away with way before that point, so by then, it usually sticks.

    If you just talk about it casually, like "Oh I can't, have to play Magic that day", like, verbally demonstrating that it's maybe weird but completely unthreatening and fine, you should be fine.

    OK, answer time. How to actually get them playing. Well, it's basically board game. What I'd suggest is to treat it as such, removing the collectible aspect, and making some simple decks you can vary between. Perhaps give her her favorite and a few other cards to improve it with, and then you can start bringing her to casual events. If anything, you can play with her yourself, which is always cozy.
    So my advice would be when trying to get a girl into the game or new players. Is first see if there’s anything fantasy or just like art related they like and show it to them and don’t expect someone to be interested beyond the casual level. Less intimidating for them and makes u seem less obsessive as well not good to overwhelm people let them get more into it as there ready and willing.


    I usually bring up magic fairly early to get a read on it, personally. Mostly because I'm hoping they'll go "omg, you play magic too?!" although this has never happened, lol. Don't think I've ever had anyone be bothered that I mention that I play it, though.

    The slow boil is probably the way to go. In theory playing low-powered precons against each other is fun for a bit, but tbh I get bored of it fairly quickly because of the lack of variety (same reason I only play commander and limited). I have had fun playing pack wars with previous gfs, though. Low skill requirements, decent chance they win, and there's still the excitement of variety.
    What? Are you saying "attractive" people is better? Or that they don't like games? What are you exactly saying? Maybe what you are saying is that people who play Magic is ugly and don't deserve to hang out with "attractive" people.

    My ex wife is a beautiful actress. When I met her, I taught her how to play Magic. She loved it and she played fairly well. She is a great human being and she is really, really attractive. I never "tricked" her to like Magic. I never "tricked" her for anything.

    I believe it is totally wrong If you need to "trick" anyone, not just a woman, to like the things you do.
    TBH I think Magic, as big as it is, is still a small enough percentage of the population that whenever you go on a date, most likely the other person doesn't play. I think, based on attendance of events that I've seen, that if the person you're dating is an attractive woman, the odds are a lot lower that they play (or at least, play seriously). I never said anything about "better" or that they don't like games or any of that stuff. I have no idea where you're getting that. Now, put to the question do I think the average magic player is less attractive than the average non-magic-player? Probably, but I think the gender imbalance is the bigger problem as regards dating and magic.

    "Tricked" was verbiage mostly used to make the thread seem spicier than it is. I don't even know how you'd categorize a strategy for getting someone interested in magic as a "trick" vs "not a trick". I guess if you told them some packs have winning lottery tickets inside or something. Obviously that's not my plan. I just want to have a plan that's most likely to get someone I'm interested into magic, without scaring them away. I'm guessing you didn't introduce your ex wife to magic by dumping her into a GP.

    Also it sounds like you're not exactly over your ex wife but that's none of my business.
    Quote from Anachronity »
    Well, speaking as someone who has gotten multiple people of various genders into Magic, but not as someone who is into the dating scene...

    Don't think of women or 'attractive people' as somehow fundamentally different from you (in this regard, at least :p ). Explain what the game is, design some super baseline 'duel decks' style decks to play if they want to (or just buy them; Eldraine has some very striking art to draw people in). Then try to assess interest.

    This can be tough because even if they didn't like playing they usually won't say so out of politeness. I imagine this goes double if they're romantically interested in you and they get the impression that it's something important to you.
    So pay attention to how interested they seem during the game; how many questions they ask versus just shrugging and nodding when you explain something to them. Hypothetical questions are a dead giveaway for interest because it means they're thinking about the game beyond what's currently in front of them. Magic as a form of creative self-expression thrives off of that sort of interest.

    Then you've just gotta be reeeeal patient. They're starting out from square 1; try to remember how you thought about Magic at that point. Artwork is probably very important, and inclusion of cards will probably be based on factors other than effectiveness. As a form of self-expression they're probably going to want to make horrible deckbuilding decisions at first. Don't discourage that, they'll learn eventually. Keep explanations limited to basic game concepts like card advantage and tempo unless they specifically ask for help.

    Most players learn through kitchen table magic. I would find some close friends (or maybe inexperienced SOs of close friends!) and start with low-power 60-card-casual decks. 4-player is ideal since 3-player tends to turn into kingmaker.
    Solid, very detailed advice, thanks! Good point about the questions and interest. Not sure how easy it'll be to set up casual groups since I just moved to a new country, though.
    Quote from Perodequeso »
    Keep your love life and Magic life separate. By doing this you’ll get time to yourself to get out and play cards, and have an excuse to not play cards as well.
    I’ve never dated a gamer and it’s been great. When you date a gamer and all you do is game it takes a toll on your normal social life.
    I’ve had friends that have dated/married Magic players, when it came time to break up splitting up collections became a nightmare. People all the sudden think that X,Y, and Z cards are theirs not yours. By never dating a Magic player I’ve never had this issue.
    Magic is my second favorite activity, but I’m glad to have a partner and life outside of nerdom, it keeps me balanced. Do yourself a favor and keep the separation, once you get into a long term relationship you’ll understand. Just make sure your partner is OK with you getting out to play cards, I’ve had girl friends that hated me going to play cards, and those girls were kind of psycho.
    My wife and I have plenty of hobbies and activities we don’t need to add Magic to the mix. And she’s usually ready for me to get out of the house once a week to play cards.
    A sign of a healthy relationship is being able to do anything together but also to need time apart. Magic affords us that time apart.
    I know that having a girlfriend that plays Magic seems like the dream, but in 99% of cases it’s a recipe for disaster.
    Having a gal that doesn’t game helps get me out of the house and into more normal social activities, when I’m single I play way too much Magic, until I get too horny and snap, LOL.
    Interesting perspective. I mean not having interest in magic is not a dealbreaker for me, of course. I think going to GPs was some of the most fun I had with my ex, though (also she thought it was pretty hot when I made it to top 8 of a PTQ, lol).
    Quote from buffntuff »
    Wow this thread fell out of the nineties. Magic isn't remotely obscure any more, and honestly it wasn't all that obscure twenty years ago either. Don't go around "tricking" people into it, just do what you like and invite them to join you if they want. If they don't then no big deal. You don't have to be identical to your partners and you don't have to do everything together. There's nothing wrong with you or your relationship if magic is just something you don't share. There is something wrong with your relationship if you prioritize magic over it, or make it a dealbreaker if they're not also playing it with you.
    It may not be super obscure but there are plenty of people who haven't heard of it.

    Lol another person annoyed at my verbiage instead of my actual content. What exactly would "tricking" someone into playing magic be?

    That seems like a guaranteed recipe for failing to get an SO interested. FNMs are usually male-dominated and at least fairly competitive. I think the vast majority of women, put into that situation unprepared, are not going to have a good time. Let alone something more competitive like a GP or PTQ.

    But no, it's not a dealbreaker for me. As my biggest hobby, though, it would certainly be nice if my SO at least enjoyed the game enough to understand occasional highlight stories, though.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Anje Falkenrath is a failure of design and one of my least favorite cards after playing with it
    General Tazri is terrible design! Sure, you could build an ally tribal deck, but the best build is food chain combo, so why would you do anything else? It's just a linear boring commander!

    You've always got a choice in deck construction. No one is making you put in a combo. If you didn't have a combo to dig to, you'd probably be more inclined to actually cast your madness cards, because there's no magic bullet at the end of the rainbow. Granted, most madness cards aren't super strong, but when they don't cost a card and they all have flash, most of them are at least decent.

    Unless you're playing cEDH, every deck has to intentionally limit its own power in some way. That's hardly unique to Anje.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Advice for Ultimate ANTI-Combo/expensive players
    You should check out my phelddagrif primer. It’s basically all counterspells and removal, so it’s very effective at blocking combo, even very early combo. With the bonus that it also wins frequently and people don’t hate you afterward.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Tricking attractive people into playing magic
    Well, I think I was fairly clear that, in these cases, they aren't even aware of the game to have any prejudice about what the playerbase looks like (although once they see what the cards look like they might develop those prejudices).

    It's all well and good to say it's an old tired stereotype, but having played in quite a few stores and major events in several countries, the playerbase - or at least the one showing up to events - has consistently been very, very heavily male. WotC says it's not as split as people think, but either they're talking about kitchen table magic, I'm somehow going to events that are unusually male-focused, or their data is wrong. My (now ex) gf actually had fun playing magic, but was turned off by the disproportionately male attendance at every event. At a certain point it's a self-sustaining problem.

    I think it's actually pretty easy to get anyone, regardless of gender, to play casual kitchen-table magic, especially if they don't have any preconceived ideas about it. It's just a fun game to play with starter decks or whatever. The hard part is getting people (especially women) actually interested in the competitive scene, or even the FNM scene, when it's so male-dominated.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Tricking attractive people into playing magic
    Wooo clickbait headline!

    Semi-serious topic - I've recently become single and a common dating conversation is "what are your favorite games" and, obviously, magic is #1 with several thousand bullets. So I usually say magic, and then also some other less-life-consuming board games so I don't sound like the obsessive freak that I am and, presumably, most of the people on this site are.

    And then, frequently, they'll say something like "I haven't heard of those, maybe you could teach me sometime" smiley face winky face etc.

    Putting aside that I'm obviously killing it on the dating scene, it got me thinking...my natural instinct it to say "well, magic is a huge competitive sport that can cost thousands of dollars, has enormous tournaments across the globe, and millions of nerds who dedicate their lives to getting marginal advantages over each other in every tiny facet of its deep strategy...I spend dozens of hours every week playing it, planning for it, and thinking about it...here, check out my collection, it's worth more an a luxury car, isn't that cool?" But I'm like 90% sure that would send most attractive women running away screaming (not sure on the odds for attractive men, feel free to enlighten me).

    Obviously the dream is an SO that shares your passion for the game, but a slow boil is almost certainly necessary to avoid freaking people out. So what's peoples' experiences/theorycrafting on how to get people into the game, especially people who are, y'know, normal functioning (and hopefully attractive) members of society instead of one's nerd friends?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from joejack8445 »
    The one or both of the two cards I mentioned can be added to Composite Golem to go infinite with mana.
    yes, obviously, but he said “without”, hence my question.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Quote from joejack8445 »
    I really like Kenrith, the Returned King. I can't wait to abuse him with Training Grounds and Biomancer's Familiar.


    Goes infinite pretty easily even without, I wonder how notorious he'd be.
    wait, how? All I can think of is composite golem (which doesn’t do anything on its own).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    I use quite a few tutors (up or down, whatever is available), but I do think they can be problematic. Here’s how I usually justify mine:

    -I vary the game by only playing each deck a few times before disassembly, so if the plan ends up excessively linear it won’t be true for long.

    -I’m oftentimes trying to accomplish something unusual, and not something that will immediately or easily win the game. To make weak strategies good, it can be necessary to remove variance.

    -I like working towards optimal decks within the narrow constraints I set for myself. Everyone except cEDH has constraints, and no tutors is a fine constraint if you’re otherwise pretty unconstrained in your approach. But given how specific my deck ideas tend to be, I think it’s not only unnecessary to omit tutors, but also limits my ability to see how functional a silly strategy could be, with all the stops pulled out, and thus how viable the strat is as a whole.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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