definitely way more efficient than just running, idk, blood celebrant or lich or whatever.Quote from Onering »Because your running Repay in Kind?
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Feb 22, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Ah ok.Quote from Onering »I wasn't actually using a list, and completely forgot about Descend.
Yeah looking at the top white spells list, most of the destroy ones are well above the non-destroy ones (terminus being the top non-destroy one). But yeah, hexproof is still way more annoying.
Feb 22, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
I feel like you must be working off an old list. Why would anyone play final judgment over descend upon the sinful? Plus no mention of ugin, the spirit dragon? And is hallowed burial (or terminus for that matter) really a top wipe at this point? If you're going off EDHrec, I suspect it's using a lot of older lists from pre-tuck-changes when those cards were a lot more exciting. Also BSZ is pretty crap except in hapatra. And who still uses o-ring outside of enchantress decks?Quote from Onering »When you look at the top sweepers in the format though, half use some form of exile or tuck. Indestructible dodges command, verdict, wrath, and damnation, but is hit by Hallowed Burial, Merciless Eviction, and Final Judgement, as well as the various -X/-X sweepers and Black Suns Zenith.
At least in my experience, a lot of more wipes won't kill indestructibles than do - that said, it's still a lot easier to deal with indestructible than hexproof imo. indestructible you can tap down, bounce, pacify, etc, besides more permanent solutions like exile and tuck.
Feb 22, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
That isn't a straw man. You saying that oblation is only good because of tuck is a straw man, because I've never said it was good because of tuck. I never put any words in your mouth. All I said was how I would rank it among white spot removal. If fact I deliberately asked where you'd put it rather than assume you'd put it in the same spot.Quote from umtiger »Idk about "strawmanning" you.
This is the straw man: "White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal. I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated."
Why do I have to rank Oblation against anything? That wasn't the point.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal? I'd rather board-wipe.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal for types? Flexibility is overrated. Maybe I rank efficiency higher.
What if I just want to play stronger threats than waste 2 spaces on bad cards like Oblation?
Let's remember. Your point is that it's worth it to consider running all three together. You tend to play all 3 in your control deck(s).
My argument is that it's not worth running all three, especially since Song of Dryads and Oblation have very obvious strikes against them. You just don't have enough room to run all three in a good deck. There are way more options available, especially since removal is White's wheelhouse.
Your counter is that Oblation is worth running because it's good panic button to have. And you again mention the triad being in your decks. Even though that point doesn't matter.
Your insistence on defending Oblation leads this into a back and forth about Oblation.
Look, Oblation is a bad card choice in the context of today's EDH (i.e. no tuck rule, exile being ubiquitous, Modern threats being so strong and generating so much value with ETB's, no one playing MWC, etc.) that you cannot justify playing all three. You need to play stronger cards or just more threats. That's really what this is about. Put simply, the 3 card package is bad because Oblation is bad.
No one reads Oblation and says "WOW! Flexible and Instant and only 3 mana!"
TWO THINGS stand out on Oblation. Tuck and Controller Drawing Two Cards. Tuck being the 4th-5th about this card? No way!
You grip onto Oblation's flexibility so hard that you're blind to its costs? If you're so afraid to lose to something/anything, play Teferi's Protection instead. Look, you may win enough games just laying low, chipping in here and there with removal/counter-magic. It's because your opponents don't realize they're doing all the work and you have a full grip at the end of the game with 10-12 lands. It's your play style and how your opponents play and haven't adapted, but it doesn't make Oblation good.
I agree Instant speed wipes are good. In my meta Fated Retribution is stone cold.
But as with some of your other points, I flat out disagree with you saying that White's creature removal is weak past STP and PTE.
There's 2 arguments going on here, I guess. One is that it's worth running all 3 in a deck, which obviously depends a lot on the deck and what its plan is. Obviously decks like Phelddagrif that have a plan that involves lots of removal are going to want all 3. Will a cat deck? eehhhh....maybe, but probably not. Probably it's pretty proactive so spending 3 for removal might not be as important as advancing its own board state, although I could imagine a more controlling cat deck that would want it, especially if it wants removal that doesn't wipe its own stuff. I certainly wouldn't say ALL GW decks should run all 3. But Phelddagrif serves as an example that certainly it's reasonable for SOME decks to run all 3. Phelddagrif is a relevant example for that argument.
It's less relevant to the other argument, though, namely "is Oblation still a good card with the tuck rule change?" Less relevant because Phelddagrif is an unusual case that would play removal even if it wasn't the absolute best, because it just needs a lot of it (although it's also playing blue which has some really good removal).
I don't give a crap what stands out to people about the card. I care what the card is actually useful for. Flexibility, speed, and cost are what are most useful about oblation, not tuck.
Oblation's cost is 3. Hey, so is Teferi's protection. Why are you so down on oblation for costing 3, to the point where you'll play removal that hits less than half as many targets just to save 1 mana, yet you recommend teferi's protection? Let alone fated retribution. Which incidentally I think sort of cuts off your position to its knees a bit. If you wanted to argue that, in top-tier decks, oblation is subpar, then fine, maybe in that circumstance 3 mana is just too much. Tiered decklists are pretty strict and there's not a ton of variety to be had, so maybe you have a position to argue that decks running oblation just aren't competitive. But if you're playing a meta where fated retribution is a great card (and don't get me wrong, it's a fine card...in low-mid power metas) then there's no way you're playing in the sort of strict competitive environment where variety is limited and only the very best lists can possibly be viable. This whole argument that there's no WAY you could use three measly slots for moderately priced targeted removal in absolute garbage in a 75% meta.
Also threats are overrated. You don't need to free up slots so you can run more threats. Phelddagrif runs one threat: Phelddagrif. And it wins more consistently than any other deck I've played. Against many people in many places at many levels of competitiveness. Open your mind a little, and realize that there are strategies more complex than just slamming threats until something sticks.
I should have been clearer - white's TARGETED creature removal is weak past PTE and STP (and UA kinda). You haven't even offered anything for that category above oblation, so I have to assume you agree with me at that point, that oblation is the 3rd-4th best targeted creature removal in white. Surely you'd have to see that, although some (your) strategies may favor other types of cards, such as wipes or threats, that SOME decks would want enough targeted creature removal that oblation would be a good choice?
Feb 21, 2018Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Lol wow I can't believe I missed that. Fixed. Although I'm pretty sure it's a woman (can goblins be women?)Quote from OCPunisher »One gem that I run in my Mizzix list is Inexorable Tide. It's a nice fill-in for your commander after you've managed to get one experience counter in a previous iteration of Mizzix, but don't want to run him into a creature-removal spell. Now, I've been advised not to go too crazy on other proliferate triggers, but you could also try Tezzeret's Gambit and Fuel for the Cause. Contagion Engine is probably pushing it a bit too far.
Also, our main man is spelled Mizzix of the Izmagnus.
I considered inexorable tide. I'd definitely run it if I were going for more of a hybrid buyback/x spell version. My reason for not running it here is that it's not terribly hard to get to 5 counters, at which point only a few cards care about getting more counters, since this version is pretty all-in on buyback. It seems like a good card for many versions of mizzy though.
I am running tezzeret's, which I think it basically just the perfect card for this deck. Often completely free (mana-wise), gets 2 counters early when you need them, just a great card. Fuel and contagion engine I think are too inefficient to justify, although I could see a proliferate-heavy version of this deck, possibly around infect or big X spells, working out. I just don't think it's this version.
I should mention I switched a couple cards before playing this last week - namely I subbed out some basics for riptide laboratory and tolaria west (which ended up searching for lab). Lab is a great card here. As long as you can afford to pay the tax and keep enough mana up, you can just plan on bouncing her. Not as good as untapping with her, but a lot better than ending up in situations where you can't afford to play more than 1-2 spells after resolving her.
Feb 21, 2018Vandalblast and varchild's I would definitely include if I revised the decklist. shattering spree probably. The rest I'm less sure about. Blasty act I'm a bit nervous about since I don't really want to destroy ALL creatures, just large evasive ones.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Feb 21, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
I don't see any interaction between palm and blasty act.
Also it seems meh vs wort since you only prevent half the damage.
Anyway but I agree overall, not an amazing card generally speaking, should be replaced in most decks. Funny way to win though.
How is total cost reduction a relevant or useful metric? I'd just consider them as mana rocks.
Feb 21, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Uh...........Quote from ChazA4 »@OneRing: Yeah, I know it's not hard to understand, but you ALWAYS have someone who remembers it wrong, which leads to the annoying factor. I remember back in the day when people SWORE up and down the rulebook that banding allowed you to pull together a 'blockerball' with only one creature with banding, allowing you to kill the beast while one sprite soaked up all the damage.
Thank God for the internet and easy access...
I'm pretty sure that's true, isn't it?
"blocked by A creature with banding" - only one creature needs to have banding to make it a band block.Quote from rule 702.21j »During the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is being blocked by a creature with banding, or by both a [quality] creature with “bands with other [quality]” and another [quality] creature, the defending player (rather than the active player) chooses how the attacking creature’s damage is assigned. That player can divide that creature’s combat damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking it. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 510.1c.
"defending player chooses how attacking creature's damage is assigned" - can choose to assign it all to one creature.
Feb 21, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
I mean, I don't think it's meant to be precise. I think it's most commonly used as a measure of how competitive someone thinks it is, or which punches they're pulling. I.e. even if the deck has a horrible win % and isn't actually very good, if it's running MLD, stax, and infinite combos, it's still a high %.Quote from Kelzam »Another arbitrary measure of a deck's supposed strengths in a vacuum for an unpredictable format where nothing is guaranteed, which assumes three other players are playing equally and predictably to a deck's benefit, not taking into account politics or numerous other factors that separate EDH/Commander from solved 60-card constructed formats. eg. bullcrap, just like the "Tier" lists.
Feb 21, 2018It's a replacement effect, so the creature never "died". Same reason child of alara can't blow up the world if he wants to return to the command zone - he has to actually go to the graveyard. So no, you can't steal commanders this way unless they choose not to send it to the command zone on death.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Also the rulings forum is a better place for these sorts of questions. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings
Feb 20, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
I haven't really brought up tuck as a major selling point of oblation (it's not). Idk why you keep strawmanning me by arguing against stuff I never brought up.Quote from umtiger »I've built MWC before. For me, it was artifact-ramp.dec that accelerated into Iona as my commander. It was artifact heavy and I had enough cards that I wanted to run that I was making cuts. So I wasn't like I was aiming to add more white cards. And this was right as tuck got axed from commanders.
For spot removal, I would play Disenchant (2cc and flexible enough for most cases) or Return to Dust (exile and 2-for-1) before Oblation. In the course of a game, there aren't many threats that necessitate tuck. So I feel that Oblation's main selling point is kinda lackluster compared to its drawback and 3-cc.
But you're hurting for card advantage sticking with MWC. One of the few ways white captures card advantage is mass removal. I weigh playing Oblation against playing more Mass Removal. I don't weigh Oblation vs other spot removal.
Oblation's main selling points are (1) flexibility, (2) instant speed, and (3) relatively low cost. Tucking is probably a distant 4th or 5th.
I agree that white-based control decks want to run a lot of wipes in most cases, but that doesn't protect from many threats that demand faster answers, and having only 2-3 ways to remove creatures at instant speed strikes me as not enough for most metas. Being able to allow the board to grow with some degree of protection in the form of a flexible panic-button like oblation gives you more value when you do use your board wipes, without requiring leaving open tons of mana like most instant-speed board wipes require (though I do like those too).
Despite having 2 of the best creature removal spells in the format, white is actually pretty weak after pte and stp in terms of good creature removal in commander. Disenchant is ok (saving 1 mana at the expense of losing creature and planeswalker removal has never been a deal I'm keen to make) but it's not creature removal. And return to dust is more expensive and less flexible than oblation so it doesn't even really compare. It's a fine card if you're trying to get value out of your targeted removal (or at least the potential to), but it doesn't do nearly as well at the job oblation does, of being a panic button to stop enemy wincons.
Feb 20, 2018Posted in: Commander (EDH)
I'm confused how you could find that to be a bigger problem than hexproof given your reasoning. As long as you're looking at wipes like ugin or all is dust, you could just run a colored wipe to kill it. Basically the only things that work on hexproof but don't work on protection, removal-wise, are damage-based wipes like starstorm, removal auras coming into play without being cast, and forcing it into combat somehow.Quote from Anachronity »Protection from [color or colors] on your commander is a big one for me due to the format's color identity rules. Almost all colorless removal either costs too much mana or costs too much money for my tastes exactly because it's good colorless removal. Brittle Effigy is the best that I know of on both counts.
Animar, Soul of Elements is particularly annoying since he's also a very dangerous engine/combo piece and can also-also easily win off of commander damage. Combine that with the low mana cost and he ends up feeling very unfair if you're only playing black and/or white, unless you're just playing boardwipe tribal.
Oversoul of Dusk is probably the most annoying non-legendary with this effect, but it's not as egregious there since it's not commander damage.
I've never even seen anyone play oversoul. Doesn't look like much of a commander card to me. It's hard to imagine what sort of deck would want to play it (although I do have on in my collection just in case I figure that out).
Feb 20, 2018Optimization.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Exact definitions vary. For example, some would say a jhoira of the ghitu deck with obliterate, ulamog, the infinite gyre, fetches, mana crypt etc is 100% because it's an optimized Jhoira deck, although others would say it isn't because jhoira isn't considered a top-tier competitive commander (and so no version of Jhoira could be 100%).
Feb 20, 2018DirkGently posted a message on Do you see this as a funny story or an example of bad sportsmanship?Maybe this is more of a personal preference thing, but his deck sucking, were I at that table, would actually make me way more annoyed than if his deck looked competitive and was competitive. With almost any other combo I'd be less annoyed since you can try to be prepared to answer them, but TeferiPool is basically unanswerable (assuming you don't already have something on board or in the command zone to win or break the combo) except by countering teferi, which you'd presumably have little reason to do if the deck appeared to be low powered. I guess it's probably worth asking right at the onset whether they have pool in the deck, because the existence of that card in the deck is going to make me play VERY differently. In the sense of trying to kill them constantly and encouraging everyone else at the table to do so as well. No matter how casual the rest of the deck is.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
To me it sounds like the sort of sucker punch deck that's basically designed to bull***** being casual and basically win one game before people figure out what's going on. The equivalent of atogatog tribal that secretly has a dozen tutors to hit reiterate + reset combo and win in response because everyone thought you were playing jank. The presence of cards like spellbook make me think that's even more likely. Maybe he's just a noob who heard about the combo and thought it sounded cool, but personally I'd be pretty pissed if someone tried that sort of thing on me, the more I think about it.
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