Nice AtE ya got there, Az.
These entire posts are exactly what I’ve been saying Az has been doing all game.
Yeah, I’m a little bloodthirsty. Remind me how that’s uncharacteristic of my playstyle in any way, shape, or form?
Az doesn’t have a case other than to play on the insecurities you’ve already expressed about me, Rhand. Why? Because there isn’t one. All he can do is say, “Iso wanted me dead!” and “Iso is misrepping me!” No ***** that I want you dead, Az. I know you’re scum. I’m playing to my win condition. As for the accusations of misrepresentation, given that you continue to follow the exact line of play I described from you, I’m not entirely sure how that’s misrepresentation, but you’re welcome to break it down for us. Again, playing humble while letting your pride flare up reaaally highlights that cognitive dissonance you have going on. Realistically speaking, though, I don’t think Rhand is gullible enough to be swayed by your continued “woe is me, for I am but a poor Azrael hoping to do good by the Rhands of this world!” charade any further.
Anyway, Rhand has basically said he’s chosen, so I guess we can leave it at that.
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Jun 22, 2018I can’t believe you’re chiding me for being “eager” to vote Az when you said you were going to do it, yourself, before I beat you to it.Posted in: Mafia
Here’s the litmus test you should be using, Rhand - Az is backpedaling, right now. He’s claiming that our mini-debate was him saying that my behavior was NAI, not that he was trying to paint me as scum. It should be pretty obvious that that’s a lie; but what I want you to do is look back on our exchange. Read it one more time. Is Az arguing that my behavior doesn’t make me scum, but rather, simply that it makes it difficult to tell my alignment one way or the other? Or is he painting a narrative to manipulate you by making me seem like an unreliable source of information while framing himself as a reasonable chum with which to collaborate with? Likewise, am I reaching with my arguments against Az, and trying to make him look as bad as possible? Or am I genuinely scumreading him based on early posting, and then understandably going for the throat once your lack of hammer cleared you and damned Az?
Reread with those angles in mind and let us know what you decide once you confer with your teammates.
Jun 22, 2018Surely you didn’t forget about this post?Posted in: Mafia
Quote from Iso »You posted while I was typing.
Quote from Azrael »What I can talk about is that early voting does not give a town player the ability to make a more intelligent decision. It forecloses it.
A townie who votes early has effectively ended their information phase in a meaningful sense. If they were right, yes, they know they were right, but if they were wrong, they lost the game. It's information in the same sense that lynching someone is "information". But the point of information is to use it to inform yourself and make intelligent decisions BEFORE pushing all your chips in on the table. Not afterwards. The information gained does not assist the voter in making the correct vote.
I suppose it *might* provide information to the third-party not involved in the situation IF the game does not end immediately in town loss, because the way that players read and respond to that gambit DOES create information and provoke behavioral reactions. But for a town player, it's one hell of a gamble that causes you to sacrifice any other source of information prior to committing to a read, and frankly, I don't think it's at all a smart thing to do from a town perspective. Ugh, this is a crappy situation, that I can't go into more detail.
See, this is funny, because it's putting down the very tactic that outed you as scum. The problem with this post is that you're trying to make me look bad on a premise that is faulty that still worked. To which information sources are you referring that we've cut off? Your ability to make Rhand look bad? Boohoo. Suck it up - this is an uphill battle for you, and you know it. It's like you're saying, "Well, I know that you can cut vegetables with a knife, but I prefer a mandoline because it's more uniform, pretty, and precise, even though you got exactly the same results more efficiently by using your knife. And you should feel bad for that."
You're attacking my methodology without disputing the findings. In short, this is fluff and completely irrelevant to the overall state of the game other than to mischaracterize me.
When you do get around to pushing back, we have this:
Quote from Azrael »Anyways, Iso being reckless is nothing new under either alignment. So I'm not going to tell you that this isn't something I could have foreseen us all facepalming @ a townie Iso in the post-game for doing the same thing into an instant loss. That's totally in his wheelhouse. But it is absolutely a smarter play as scum, and there's great lines of play in support of doing what he's doing from an emotional manipulation standpoint. You commit to one particular target to undermine, you create an emotional bond because they now *know* that you're a good townie too (which they did before they voted, but hey, details are for suckers when you can put on a good show), and you always look better as the aggressor rather than the defender. It makes great work out of all those psychological edges. So, kudos to him for that, whether or not he methodically thought through all those aspects beforehand or not (he didn't, but he's got good instincts and that's just as good sometimes).
Character assassination. Attempting to make me look bad, like a villain, etc.; all of this can be summarized as "yo Iso take some ad hom!" Again, it's not actually addressing the argument, but rather, attempting to make me look like an unreliable source of information in addition to questioning my methodology. More fluff.
Quote from Azrael »As far as things we're legitimately allowed to talk about, obviously there's not a ton of info for you to look at this early. A few posts from each of us. There's not much there except some cheap misrep from Iso, and this gambit that you could see from either alignment. So I guess I'm kind of banking that you talk this out enough to read me and pick up on my town tells, because otherwise we might be kind of screwed on outs if Iso just does his standard unreasonable, poorly explained confidence bit that he does under either alignment. And that makes him a tough guy to get a legit read on, because that's not a hard pattern of behavior for him to reproduce under either alignment.
"Well, there's not a lot going on here except Iso's cheap shot lololo but you can totally figure this game out, Rhand!" This is a really neat psychological tactic - it villainizes me as misrepping, unreasonable, overconfident, and possibly scum as a result, but puts alleged confidence in Rhand, appealing to his pride and sense of reason in the sense that you're trying to get Rhand to work with you.
Finally, Az tries to make himself seem like a reasonable party:
Quote from Azrael »Me, though, I have one strong advantage here. I'm not a tough townie read. I'm someone who people usually can look at, talk to enough, and they can get a good solid read on where I'm coming from on a behavioral standpoint. Either as scum or town, I'm far more of an open book than Iso. Maybe to expand on that, I think my two playstyles are far more markedly different, so anyone who's familiar with my meta has a pretty ok shot of picking up a good read, whereas Iso's style falls into similar patterns under either alignment. I think the question is going to be less who has the more convincing scum case, and more who is the most evident townie. Or at least, I think that's your best shot of getting this right, for whatever that's worth to you.
So, if you have questions for me that the mod will allow me to answer, fire away. I'm here, and I'll just talk until you feel you got enough of a read to sort this out.
After previously humbling yourself - "oh gee, I sure hope you can figure out this game, Rhand!" - you then boost yourself up to slightly below the level you put him on, making yourself attempt to seem like someone who has a small amount of confidence but not enough to try to dwarf the inflamed sense of ego you attempted to bestow upon Rhand, which, let's be honest, is a total misrepresentation of the way you feel about the way you play Mafia.
All in all, this is a really dirty scum essay because of the way you've written it to appeal to Rhand and, while I applaud you on your efforts, it's very transparent.
Jun 21, 2018Just had a chance to read Az’s last post and rofl, that’s definitely NOT what he was saying/doing. The language is clearly meant to make me seem unreliable even if I am town. NAI was never part of the discussion.Posted in: Mafia
Jun 21, 2018Posted in: Mafia
I wasn’t feeling great about your intro post because it felt like you were trying to underhandedly convince me that I shouldn’t be scumreading you. (Also we were totally just in a game where I townread you on D1 and even left you my items upon my death. ) But then Az just totally ***** the bed and by proxy you had to be town.
Jun 21, 2018Also, I would disagree that what's said is NAI if you see the inconsistencies that I highlighted in Azrael's mindset as well as his approach to arguing about me - that he shouldn't care about the way I do things as town, because as town, he would logically not even be considering that angle. The only reason he could possibly have to make you think, "Well, Iso isn't reliable as town" is if he's scum.Posted in: Mafia
Jun 21, 2018It's more that I thought Az was scummier than you based on his approach to the game, as I've already explained.Posted in: Mafia
I'm really disappointed that you're considering voting me; I thought you'd have known better.
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