I think it depends on what your deck is, and which format you're playing. Both cards have their own uses within certain archetypes, and both can be better than the other depending on your build.
Member for 7 years, 9 months, and 6 days
Last active Wed, Mar, 20 2019 18:53:31
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Mar 20, 2019With regards to lurking, I agree that it's a prevalent problem in our meta, and I think a lot of that can be due to deadlines. I think that's another problem, though, because I know that I personally wouldn't be able to play Mafia with shorter deadlines, and I know that appeals to a lot of our older playerbase. Because of the relaxed deadlines, more people are able to participate. With such a small playerbase, I'm not sure we want to ostracize the people who can play here because of the not-so-stringent deadlines.Posted in: Mafia
On that note, as far as lynching lurkers go, yes, GJ - I agree that this should be important to some degree - but when somebody is behaving in an overtly scummy manner to me, I would rather remove that player from the game before they can sow more dissension within the game. The lurkers can come later. The other thing is that lurker-hunting is a supremely easy tactic to pick up and utilize as scum to make it look like you're doing something without contributing meaningfully to the game. Nobody wants to read 30 posts of "not changing my vote because lurkers", and it's just lazy play, IMO. I think Amistaria III was a great example of this - we wiped out the scum, sans the lurker, and at the end of the game, I said, "Well, I don't feel like any of the active players are really scum, and they're not lynches I'd feel great about pursuing. So, let's lynch the lurker and win?" And then we won.
Edit: More chat with DV:
DV Today at 4:07 PM
A follow up question, how much would you classify yourself as someone that needs to win? Or wants to win. For example in magic playing for fun was always really hard for me in some senses. EDH always became semi competitive. I found play groups that thought the same way instead of trying to dull that desire.
Iso Today at 4:18 PM
When I play games, I think "having fun" and "winning" are about 50-50 for my goals. I've been trying to make having fun more of a priority, lately, but I've always had a competitive nature, so it's a difficult change. Actually, EDH has been a great foray for me into "playing for fun" more than "playing to win" once I realized that other people weren't having fun when I was playing decks like Slivers and Kaalia (partially because I realized I didn't have fun playing against decks like that). I took apart my oppressive decks and built decks that are more like Rube Goldberg machines that do wacky ***** to accomplish cool stuff.
I separate that from my mentality when I play Legacy, which, while I'm trying to have fun, is inherently a more competitive format
I think a lot of that came from my childhood where I could never beat Seppel at games because I was the younger of us and lacked the mental faculties to strategize as well as my older sibling, who had more experience than I in such things. Because I never won, a lot of what became important to me was winning and/or being clever while trying to win.
But, I've come to terms with that.
I'm simply trying to adjust my behavior, accordingly, now.
(That said, I still very much enjoy being clever while playing games, and winning.)
DV Today at 4:27 PM
Yeah, for sure. I moved to playing less "Competitive" games with friends.
A lot of co-op games and or team games like Battle Royals.
Iso Today at 4:31 PM
Of course, those are still competitive, but not at the expense of your playgroup.
If you all lose, you can be butthurt at invisible people on the internet
Rather than each other.
DV Today at 4:32 PM
We used to play moba's but a lot of those games lasted like 45 minutes. So, a lot more of time was invested and when you lost it sucked
Iso Today at 4:33 PM
DV Today at 4:35 PM
Perhaps mafia is something that inherently hard for me to separate need to win versus fun. I know a lot of my thoughts in the last on going game were "want to win" and "I'm not performing enough to win"-so I got more stress, and "Team mates are not performing enough to win".
I didn't used to think about the game this way.
So, I think that is a large part of it for me. I'm ******* getting too competitive.
Iso Today at 4:35 PM
Mafia's a huge investment mentally, emotionally, and energy-wise.
Our games are super long, so it feels that much worse when you lose.
It's hard when you don't feel like your teammates are carrying their weight, but remember there's nothing at stake.
If it were a $10,000 Mafia Championship I could understand the frustration, and it might even be justified at that point
But it's just a game that you knowingly invested your time and effort into.
You're not always going to win.
Yeah, it feels better when you do, but even if you don't, it's not necessarily a reflection on you of not being good enough to have won.
And at the worst, if you contribute to the game meaningfully and in a positive way, other people will have enjoyed themselves, more, and will want to play with you again in the future.
DV Today at 4:38 PM
Last part is the most important.
Iso Today at 4:39 PM
Yes, winning is fine to have as a goal in Mafia. But what you truly want is to foster a welcome and friendly environment that people want to come back to so that they can play more epic games with you. Right?
Don't lose sight of the goal.
Mar 20, 2019Posted in: MafiaQuote from D_V »Quote from Iso »DV, are you okay with me posting my messages to you about my recommendations on how to handle this? It might elicit some helpful input from others.
Edit: I should preface I think most of that is your story so I don't think I have any right to stop you either way.
DV Last Sunday at 3:49 PM
Hey I remember you had issues at one point with your own behavior. Can I ask what steps you took to solve it?
Iso Last Sunday at 3:50 PM
The first step, for me, was realizing that I wasn't enjoying Mafia.
I asked myself why. Was it the people I was playing with? The fact that I'd been doing it for so long that it was stale? Was it general burnout? Perhaps I had fallen too far into my Mafia persona to realize I was being a general jackass?
Once I identified the cause, I took a step back.
I looked through some of my old posts and, rather than looking to validate myself and what I had been doing, I looked at how I may have antagonized or otherwise been unwelcoming to people.
I made mental notes about the kinds of things that people seemed to react poorly to, which were usually the reactions that caused me to get angry in-game.
I took another step back.
Mafia is a game. It's just a game. There are other people involved, and those people have emotions that also affect the way they play the game, and how they receive my own play.
I needed to stop being so emotionally invested in the game.
It was draining me in all the worst ways. I was definitely burned out.
I kept playing because I felt like I had to - to keep games filling, to keep up a presence in the community, etc.
It was detrimentally affecting my play, as well, because I assumed anyone who was intentionally antagonizing me knowing what I was capable of was scum.
It also demotivated me from keeping up to date with the game, which then made people think I was scum.
It was a double-edged sword, and both ends were pointing at me.
I took one final step back.
I played a couple of games, and every time I was tempted to flame someone, be toxic, or just generally unpleasant, I paused myself, separated myself from my emotions and the situation, and walked away from my computer for a moment. When I came back, I was usually clear-headed enough to make my point without coming across as condescending, ********-ish, etc.
I would remind myself that it's just a game and that it's okay if other people are dumb because "I'm Iso, and I ****in' got this"
Even when coming under pressure in-game, which makes it infinitely more difficult to stay level-headed, I did my best to keep ad hom out of it. It's not about attacking the player making the argument - it's about illustrating why the argument is bad without saying "this is bad and you are bad and you should feel bad".
It's all about impulse control, adjusting your perspective, and remembering that it's not just a game, but a team game.
You have other people relying on your success to win, even if they're not necessarily carrying their own way sufficiently.
Taking a break from constantly being in a Mafia game for 7 years was also a big step towards being able to reprioritize the way I viewed and handled things in-game.
Yeah, that can maybe lead one to get rusty, but it'll also help you get out of your head and remove a lot of your own biases and predispositions about people and how they're playing the game that were probably affecting your play in ways you didn't realize.
It's okay to put the noose down every once in a while to regroup and recollect yourself.
I don't have the same passion for the game that I did when I was a 19-year old college kid who didn't have time to sleep (so I spent all the time I was awake on Mafia anyway), but with all of the above in mind, I was able to find a way to continue to enjoy the game. There's no need to pointlessly bait people into giving you hostile reactions or anything that might cause a case of the feel-bads.
Just try to be empathetic, when all else fails.
If you have any questions, let me know - but I hope this helps you.
DV Last Sunday at 4:04 PM
I feel like a lot of that describes me to a T.
I've probably scapegoated my behavior on other things too
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Likely the case.
DV Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
<3 Glad to help. Let me know how it goes for you.
Iso Last Monday at 4:59 PM
https://nordiclarp.org/2015/03/02/bleed-the-spillover-between-player-and-character/ This might help you sort out your feelings on the matter a bit.
Mar 17, 2019Understood RE: awareness. I just noticed the trend and assumed it was deliberate that you weren't flaming past a certain point; sorry for the misunderstanding.Posted in: Mafia
With regards to GJ, if there were posts that required carding, rest assured that they were. Can you link the after-game chat that you're referring to, here?
Edit: I do believe D_V does sincerely wish to address his behavior, and this is evidenced both by him speaking to me privately about this and seconding his own probation in here.
Mar 17, 2019My $0.02 as a former Councillor and long-time Mod of Mafia:Posted in: Mafia
Looking through the offending posts in question, I agree with Rodemy's movement. D_V has a history of flaming people in Mafia games until he has 2 infractions, toeing the line until the infractions expire, and then doing it all over again once they have. This is toxic behavior, and, unfortunately, it has not changed in all the years I've been playing Mafia on MTGS with D_V. I don't have any personal qualms with him - we've had some good conversations OoG, even if we have a lot of starkly contrasting views, whether they be on the way our community is run, Mafia role creation, game balance, or what have you. That said, his repeated behavior is not conducive to a friendly gaming environment for a tight-knit community such as ours, and I do third putting D_V on probation.
As far as GJ goes, I looked at his part in the exchange, as well, and while there was some action worthy of infraction, GJ is certainly not a repeat offender/problem user for us, and I can remember maybe only one or two other times where he blew up in a way that was disproportionate to the stimulus, in question. His play attitude, lately, has been of the "IDGAF" variety, but I don't think it generally comes into games in a problematic way, except in rare instances such as this one. Bearing all of this in mind, I don't think GJ needs to be put on probation.
Feb 11, 2019Iso posted a message on Token Power 2 Mafia - Well, that was anticlimactic (Game Over)It's a townbloc, not a townblock.Posted in: Mafia
Feb 5, 2019I had a really rude play, recently, with my Nicol Bolas Grixis Hugs deck, which I have affectionately dubbed "Community Chest".Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Normally, the deck fuels the entire table, using cards like Master of the Feast, Dictate of Kruphix, Howling Mine, Font of Mythos, Seizan, etc.. There's a Kozilek in there to prevent myself from decking out until I have Lab Man, which is my primary win condition (though I also utilize each of the Bolas Planeswalker cards, Rise of the Dark Realms, Insurrection, and Awaken the Erstwhile as alternate win cons).
The deck was built to accelerate the table to their win conditions, and, if they take too long to win, it wins with overwhelming card draw. Now, with all of this in mind, the deck has some extremely brutal lines of play. Most recently, I dropped a T3 Notion Thief and cast Whispering Madness on T4, Ciphered on to Notion Thief. The entire table scooped.
I also play an Atraxa artifact tokens combo deck. I got out Revel in Riches and Mechanized Production out (enchanting my Platinum Angel while I had out Platinum Emperion and Darksteel Forge), and was generating a TON of Treasure tokens off of Doubling Season + Smothering Tithe. At one point, I ended up with 35 Treasure tokens, with my opponents doing everything in their power to keep my Revel and Production off the board to prevent me from winning on my next turn. Eventually, my Forge got bounced, my Angel wiped, and my Revel bounced, and I lost after they destroyed my Emperion, but it was an epic game, overall. At one point, I turned all of my Treasure into 5/5's with Tezzeret the Seeker, but somebody cast Evacuation and that set me back a couple of turns.
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