In my experience avatar of the resolute usually dies the second its on the battlefield, and the value comes from evolving others. Of course it's nice to have MB answer to lingering souls as well. To me the core of the deck is 8x evolvers, 8x pongify and 8x undying, and the rest is negotiable. I think i'd be willing to make more changes if more meaningful interaction was available. As it is, narnam renegade is effective 'must kill' blocker.
Red splash has served me well. ancient grudge is waaay better than any sort of 1-mana substitute that's powerless to combat chalice and more efficient than any 2-mana alternative. Haste is a good point tho, just haven't found the right creature to my taste. pyroclasm is definitely just a 1-of for now, so it doesn't effect the splash. It c'd just as well be second echoing truth or what not.
I'm surprised you're picturing Renegade as a blocker. The deck never struck me as trying to play the control role. Renegade's Deathtouch ability is appealing because it makes blocking it a pain. Allowing you to trade up with it. But if you're sitting back with a creature when you're trying to push through damage as quickly as possible, that just seems backwards to me. Tempo means you're trying to keep the way clear for your creatures while delaying any meaningful interaction for as long as possible from your opponent. Our deck can technically play the control game a bit but that's for rare instances where you are being out-aggro'd. Even then, you're likely better off just trying to push damage faster. I'm really curious as to your reasoning for considering your creatures' defensive utility in the deck. I think it'll help me understand where you're approaching the deck from and allow me to explain my point of view better to you.
As for Avatar, if you're assuming that your mana investment is immediately going to die, then it may not be the best option. For the same mana, you can get Strangleroot Geist (which I think is the real powerhouse card of the deck) that is very resilient, has haste, and facilitates applying pressure for your tempo gameplan. I look at it this way, playing Avatar and having it immediately die means you hopefully got 2 Evolve creatures above 3 power. So you added 2 power to the board and made a 1-for-1 card trade for the opponent. Assuming that power connects, your mana investment got you 2 damage on the turn you played it. But let's say you played Hellspark Elemental instead. Let's say you get a Raptor to 3 power off of it, putting 1 power in play. The opponent kills the Elemental same as the Avatar. You've gained 1 power but only traded 0.5 of a card for their 1 card. You get to spend the second half on the following turn for a total of 4 power (barring no other Evolve creatures entered play). It's bit abstract to compare the two but in a deck that needs to make the most out of the 12-14 cards you're going to see in a normal game, Avatar is a large source of lost potential. Especially when you are curving at 2 and the difference between playing 2 spells in a turn versus 1 is something to be taken into consideration when planning out your turns.
From my experience, 8 Pongify effects is way too many. The creature base can't really support that many without stranding copies in your hand. Even with the Undying creatures, Pongify uses up their recursive resource and only really trades for an opponents card when used defensively (in reaction to removal). It's definitely a very powerful effect in the deck and helps get more power in play on the cheap but a lot of the value of the card isn't in it's ability to directly influence the board state but to make calculations difficult for the opponent. It's existence alone makes any open blue mana on your board into a ton of possible combat tricks that your opponent needs to assess. Regardless of if you have the card in hand or not. And honestly, it only takes one, maybe two, castings in a game to get a lot of value out of it. I could easily see running 5 of the card and maaaybe 6 to make sure you see one every game. However going higher than that is going to leave you hurting to keep your board full and lead to things like Hybridizing your own Lizard Mutant to blank a removal spell for no other value. I tested originally with 4 Rapid Hybridization and I've never thought I needed more since playing with the 4-of.
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@brainpipe - It may not have been the main focus but it seems like its inclusion heavily influenced original card choices. The original list's creatures almost all had a way to give themselves +1/+1 counters and while it may have started out trying to be an Evolve deck, Avatar feels like a Timmy inclusion. It has the potential to hit play as a 6/5 or something silly for 2 mana but like I said above, the value it ends up adding to the board rarely ends up being better than just Shocking the opponent. Making your Evolve guys bigger than 3/Xs is rarely going to be relevant. You can hit your goal of getting 7-9 power in play without running undercosted fatties that are going to eat removal before doing anything relevant.
Your point about the deck burning out before closing games is exactly the problem I was running into originally. Like, there's tons of cool lines and ways to get value but at the end of the day, a lot of those interactions are just 1-for-1s and you're going to hit turn 4 with a dude or two on the ground and no way to punch through the last bit of damage. Rancor having built-in recursion, Hellspark having innate evasion and being 2 cards in 1, and Goblin Guide creating immediate pressure all help shave off durdling and add weight to the tempo plan. I tried out Chart a Course like you guys were talking about not too long ago. By using it, you are literally taking a turn off from adding to the board and that's just shooting yourself in the foot as a tempo player. The deck has to have every card count and pull a lot of weight in order to be competitive in the current modern format.
I was thinking about Risk Factor recently and wanted to see if there were enough cards in modern to make a deck based around the "giving your opponent choices" cards. While traditionally seen as "bad" cards, I'm curious if having a critical mass of them could push them into at least being playable. There's just barely enough cards to make a deck and this is what I've come up with:
The main rule for building the deck is that the card has to force the opponent to make a choice of some sort. I think I've hit most of the playable ones but there are some big EDH style spells that also fit the criteria, a la Choice of Damnations. There's potential to add Blue to the deck for Gifts Ungiven and Sedraxis Specter but I haven't explored that too much. It'd need more graveyard shenanigans for sure. Probably Raven's Crime.
Goblin Guide is a tenuous inclusion but it works with the life-taxing aspect and the deck needed more 1-drops. My argument for including it is that he forces the opponent to choose between potentially getting free lands or taking 2 damage (which is really pushing the boundaries.
I'm just hoping to bounce this list off the MTGS Hivemind to see if there's any cards I missed or if there's anyone else interested in a deck like this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm not a person to play a top tier anything. Figuring out what the most optimal meta call to fill the last flex spot in a known archetype doesn't appeal to me like trying to make a pile of oddball cards win games. Haha.
I definitely agree that my list is more aggressive than the original. Though I don't think it is less of a tempo deck than the original but more so plays on a different axis than the original deck's intent. The original list felt like it was built around trying to make Avatar of the Resolute really big because its fun. Which is fine. Though in my opinion, the power of the deck wasn't playing a 2cmc 6/5 on turn 3 but in it's ability to blank a lot of interaction as well as pump out 3-5 "Wild Nacatl"-type threats by turn 3. So by cutting Avatar and moving away from the +1/+1 theme the deck became more streamlined towards an aggressive end with an emphasis on Evolve and repeating ETB creatures (basically trying to consistently generate 1 mana 3/3s).
The tempo aspect is definitely still there. You want your opponent to spend their mana on spells that you blank with a bunch of 1cmc spells (Hybridizing a creature in response to a Path, Snagging a 3/4 'Goyf, etc.). The main difference is that you can apply more pressure earlier on. Giving your tempo plays more weight because the clock is that much shorter for your opponent. Turn 1 and 2 are going to be the safest time to get threats in to play. Then you're looking to ride out turn 3 and 4 with your tempo spells or overloading on creature threats. Banking on a bit of reach to close out games if the game runs longer than that. Which is generally what tempo decks are looking to do.
Haste was the big sell for me. His ability to trigger Evolve on both creatures for 1 mana is really nice. Like I said in the big post, Narnam Renegade has some pretty specific hoops to jump through to be decent but on top of that it felt lackluster in multiples when I was originally playtesting the stock list. Guide never really feels bad. For example:
That sort of a hand is fairly normal but definitely on the ideal side of things. Having Narnam there wouldn't change the number of triggers and actually puts you back 2 damage by turn 3. For an aggro deck, Guide does what aggro does but also fits what is going on thematically well enough to make the inclusion reasonable.
1R Mini-Threaten
Sorcery
Target opponent chooses a creature they control. Untap that creature and gain control of it until end of turn. That creature gains haste until end of turn.
I know giving your opponent options is "bad" but I think this could be fun. I also have a silly deck idea that this would be perfect in.
Oh boy, I love this deck. I picked it up early last year and tweaked and tuned it a lot to a point where I think it's pretty good. Not a high tier deck by any means but something I have gone 3-1 with many times at the LGS. It's going to be fairly different from what you guys have been posting but I'll explain all the card choices. To start, here's the deck:
In general, the deck is a tempo-aggro deck when playing. You have a ton of combat tricks and ways to push through damage, it's just about getting power on to the board as fast as possible. You're looking to lead with an evolve guy, then just play haste dudes to grow them.
Creatures: Goblin Guide - The best aggro creature out there. Sometimes you play 3 of them by turn 2 and win. Usually it is just a good follow up to some evolve dudes that lets you swing in for ~4 on turn 2 pretty consistently. You also get to see what's coming from your opponent's deck. Free info is always helpful for the aggro player. Hellspark Elemental - 3 hasty damage on a body that hits play twice. Multiple Evolve triggers and a great target for your Hybridization. Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Probably the worst creature in the deck but I've won games off her so I like the 2-of. She works well with Rancor on the Evolve guys and she puts a 2/1 into play pretty easily which also bumps late draw Evolve guys. She also wears Rancor really well. Avatar of the Resolute - He got axed for Hellspark. I found that he often wasn't closing out games and was rarely bigger than a 3/2 or 4/3 anyways. He only hits play once and doesn't really impact the board as much as I was wanting when playing him originally. Narnam Renegade - I didn't care for the inconsistency of her if I didn't have a fetch to play on turn 2. Like, it forced weaker lines to get a really mild upside. I swapped it out for Goblin Guide and never really looked back.
Spells: Rapid Hybridization - I had a few too many games of sitting with a couple Pongify in-hand and no creatures to target. The effect is the core of the deck but 8 was way too many. There's probably an argument to be made for playing 5-6 but 4 is enough to see one a game and have a good "got'em" moment. Rancor - I was having trouble with evasion and boards getting gummed up. Rancor allowed the deck to slap Trample on something and forces a lot of bad blocks on to the opponent with no real downside. Like, lets say I have a 2/3 Raptor, a 2/2 Guide, and a 3/1 Young Wolf holding a Rancor. Which one are they supposed to kill? It pulls removal from your main damage sources by making something else a more urgent threat. Even targeting a garbage creature with it forces opponents to consider wasting removal to get rid of the Rancor. It's a really versatile card and I've gotten a ton of mileage from it. Also, sometimes you draw 3 and just get there with a 6/1 Raptor. Vapor Snag - I honestly don't remember if this was in the stock list but it's been an all-star for me. The 1 damage is usually relevant and being able to keep the board clear for a turn is typically enough to push a game in your favor. It also works really well with Rancor as you can boop the blocker and Trample all the damage through. If you play smart, it's a really strong tool. You can also hit your own guys (like Hellspark) for additional Evolve triggers.
Lands: Fetches - I wouldn't recommend less than 9 fetches and they all have to fetch Green. The deck won't function if you can't hit double Green. Generally I try to hit a G/R dual first, then a G/U, followed by a second G/R. Being able to Unearth and Bolt in the same turn happens more often than needing to Hybridize and Snag in the same turn. However, Raptor always takes precedence. So if it's in my opener, I'm playing it turn 1. 18 lands - This is probably cutting it too close but as a player I'd rather be stuck on 2 and only playing 1-2 spells a turn rather than flooding out. 19 is fine but I wouldn't go higher than that. The deck curves at 2. Having 3 mana is a nice luxury but you get a ton of mileage from your cards. Playing smart goes a long way towards making the most of being a little choked on mana.
The main downside to the deck is that it does a pretty good job of killing itself getting the mana to work. The Burn match up is really rough but Life Goes On helps a fair bit there. It preys on metas full of control/combo decks and Tron. It can put an insane clock into play very fast. Uninterrupted it can win on turn 3 but turn 4 is more common. Against fair/midrange decks, it's alright. Discard heavy hands from the opponent are hard because you'll lose steam but removal heavy hands are generally not a problem. Rest in Peace out of a sideboard hurts a lot but you can play through it. Blood Moon is usually a death sentence unless you happen to draw a very red heavy hand. I think I've only won once after having it cast against me. Either way, sitting on Natural State helps.
Anyways, that's a large info dump... I really enjoy playing this deck and I stand behind the changes I've made to it. If there's anything you guys would like me to elaborate on, I'd be happy to. Thanks for taking the time to read through all of that. Haha.
So I saw this list on mtgtop8 awhile ago and after playing with the stock list, made some changes. I know the deck wants to try to tempo out the opponent with EWit and Command but I always found myself wanting to search for a bomb or Acidic Slime. I was blown away at the power of Cloudthresher and underwhelmed with Chameleon Colossus. So, here's the list I've been running and I guess I'll throw some more notes out after.
On Devotion: I know most of you guys are on the Nykthos plan with untapping effects but outside of the explosive Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf draws, you can just ramp into 5 mana on turn 3 and usually out-tempo your opponent from there. I can see where the interest in Devotion is coming from but I think it dilutes what the deck is trying to do; namely prevent our opponents from playing relevant Magic cards. So focusing more on disrupting their manabase seems to work best for me.
On Bombs: I think Carnage Tyrant is pretty much unbeatable for most decks and he is a very real threat on turn 3/4. To be fair, I haven't played with Prime Time but I can't see myself really wanting to ramp that much more once I've hit 6+ mana in play. Cloudthresher has been amazing at allowing me to play on Control's terms. Flash from a Mono-G deck is unusual and if you are passing with 6 mana up, opponents usually think you bricked for a turn. The 2 damage to flyers and players is usually relevant and it also is just a giant 7/7 dude. Also, if you guys haven't played with Steel Hellkite, you need to get on that train. It's a one-sided Engineered Explosives on a 5/5 flying mana sink. It does everything the deck wants to be doing.
On Bestiary: mistahARK just mentioned that he thinks the deck is lacking card draw/filtering and as he mentioned Lifecrafter's Bestiary does just that. It can come down turn 2 and is at worst a free Scry 1 every Upkeep. Late game it turns all of your dorks into redraws and 6 mana for an Acidic Slime that draws a card (effectively becoming a 2-for-0) is amazing. It competes with lock pieces but I think the added consistency is well worth it. I'd highly recommend giving it a try.
On No EWit: I mentioned above how I never really found myself wanting to go for the Eternal Command loop. I definitely respect the power of the interaction but what gets me about it, is that you are spending 8 mana to blank a draw and a land drop from the opponent. Which on paper sounds like a repeatable Time Walk but it doesn't allow you to interact with what is already in play or in the opponent's hand. So putting a 2/1 into play and blanking a draw just ended up feeling underwhelming when the opponent can still just play other things from their hand. Also, being able to let Primal Command be "gain 7 life + top a permanent/tutor for a fatty" is important for the myriad of aggressive decks out there right now. I just found the value in the loop to be more cute than effective, so I dropped the EWits to make room for more consistent ramp and land destruction.
The sideboard should definitely have a Thragtusk, I'll have to figure out where to slot that in. Beast Within or Dismember should probably also be in the deck somewhere as well. I have found Infect to be almost unbeatable and having a way to keep them off of Blighted Agent is probably worth looking into.
I'm going to be playing it tomorrow night at my LGS's weekly Modern event and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Also, feel free to critique my list. I think it's pretty good but having other sets of eyes is almost always a good thing.
Yeah, I had Thought Scour in the deck awhile ago but the Scry 2 is important as I want to dig for the combo pieces of the deck and without a good way to recur the Assault, blindly milling isn't exactly where I wanted to be with the deck. Instant speed draw would be nice but the digging quality of Serum Visions is really what the deck wants.
@Dos_Rouge: I think the deck sits where it has for awhile, it's decent and has a strong attrition game but it doesn't close out games quickly. So it has rough combo match ups. Like most modern decks though, it can place fairly well but I don't know what sort of a meta modern would have to take for Assault Loam to be dominant.
@Xour: I don't think the deck is completely SOL against graveyard hate. Like, losing the Loam engine is rough but beating down with Countryside Crusher, Bloodbraid Elf, or manlands is viable. As is Assault turning your lands into Shocks. I took out the counter magic in my deck and tried running a set of BBE in their stead. It went fairly well at the tournament I played in, going 2-1-1. I beat Jeskai Control, Mono-White Midrange, drew with Jeskai Control (though I was a turn away from winning and would have won had he not drawn back to back Snapcasters during extra turns) and lost to UW Taking Turns. I liked being more proactive but not having ways to interact outside of damage was rough. I'm not sure how to balance that though as counter magic with BBE is awkward.
Graveyard hate is going to be tough for a graveyard based deck to deal with, otherwise it isn't good hate. You could maybe run some number of Maelstrom Pulse over the Lightning Axes in your deck or just prioritize digging for removal spells for it during games. I don't believe Lantern has a great way of dealing with Assault once it is in play. So I'd say focus on that game plan against them. You can Dredge through a Cage so getting the Loam engine going is where I would start for that match up. You could try adding a Crucible of Worlds or two to your sideboard and pursue a land destruction lock on them. Wheel of Sun and Moon also came up as a potential sideboard card while I was poking at this problem.
Capt. Nick, you seem to be the Temur Loam-master. Got any updated list post unbannings/Dominaria? Jace does fit the deck nicely in my opinion.
There wasn't anything in Dominaria that stuck out as a useful inclusion into Temur Loam. Though I do really like Sylvan Awakening as a card and I think this deck wouldn't be the worst place for it as a 1-of in the board. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a nice addition to the deck as he does a lot of what you want and is much better than Nissa, Steward of Elements or Jace Beleren. This is the list I am playing with now:
The sideboard is really open to tuning and those are just general answers cards I like running. I would like to slot an Engineered Explosives in there but I don't really have a problem with where it is at right now. If you have any questions about the decklist, I'd be happy to answer them. I've only played a couple tournaments with it since the unban and have done pretty well with it.
I know that this isn't technically a Loam Pox thread, but I figure it's easier to find people to talk to than elsewhere, even if the chat feels pretty dead. I was wondering about our Lantern control matchup. Due to this rule: 502.47a Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player’s graveyard. “Dredge N” means “As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand.” we know that dredge doesn't stop us from milling ourselves. Memory's Journey doesn't do enough when you're not in blue because the flashback exiles the card. Is it worth while to have a Buried Ruin + Elixir of Immortality package (or some other choose to reshuffle package) in the 75?
I don't think dedicating sideboard slots to anti-milling is really going to do anything for you. Mill is how Lantern wins but getting around the lock is what will allow you to win through it. So you need answers to their lock pieces. So, bringing in more artifact removal should work well for you. Though, you're running 4 Ancient Grudge so I can't imagine you'd have trouble finding some hate. They can't really deal with that well, since it works from both your hand and graveyard. You could consider running Nature's Spiral or Treasured Find to get back milled Assaults. I haven't personally had trouble against Lantern with Loam decks. We tend to operate in a way that they can't handle without seeing several "silver bullet" artifacts. If you can stay ahead of those hate cards, you should be able to win without much trouble and before milling out becomes an issue.
I'm kicking around the idea of putting together Living End. I know the list is pretty well established at this point but is there any reason the deck doesn't play Forbidden Orchard in some number? It gives you control of keeping Demonic Dread live and is an untapped multi-color land. Seems like interesting consistency tech at the least.
The problem with the Pike is that there are cards that do the same thing for cheaper. You have Myth Realized for W, which becomes a creature until end of turn with the Pike effect for another W. You also have Enigma Drake for 1RU which has the Pike effect on the power side of things.
Nykthos is, in my opinion, begging to be put into a Relentless Rats deck alongside Thrumming Stone. There's probably better ways to build it than my list, however
Myth Realized requires it to be in play prior to casting all your spells to get the Lore Counters on it. Enigma Drake forces you into UR; which are fine colors for playing lots of spells but is also limiting. Pike is always counting the spells in the graveyard. So it instantly puts power onto what should already be good creatures (eg. Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of Saint Traft, Spell Queller, Young Pyromancer, etc.). I think the real kicker for what makes Pike strong is that it gives First Strike as well as the buff. So your creatures can suddenly start trading well in combat.
I used to run a 4 color Wild Nacatl+Delver of Secrets tempo deck. It was very spell heavy to support Delver and I ran a 1-of Runechanter's Pike with a copy of Steelshaper's Gift which I always thought was a nice combination. I don't know how good that 4c deck would be in the current meta (with burn being so popular right now) but maybe a UW tempo deck could be fun.
It isn't really an Assault Loam deck without the Seismic Assault. Gitrog Monster was found to be a bit too win-more when it came out. You can go infinite with Dakmor Salvage, Monster and a discard outlet. So that's probably worth looking into if you are heading down that road. Traverse is a sweet tutor but it may be difficult to get Delirium online with no Looting style effect or cantrip artifacts MB like Mishra's Bauble or Nihil Spellbomb. I'd also want a 1-of Maelstrom Pulse in the deck. It may be personal preference but I like the unrestricted removal of it.
I'm surprised you're picturing Renegade as a blocker. The deck never struck me as trying to play the control role. Renegade's Deathtouch ability is appealing because it makes blocking it a pain. Allowing you to trade up with it. But if you're sitting back with a creature when you're trying to push through damage as quickly as possible, that just seems backwards to me. Tempo means you're trying to keep the way clear for your creatures while delaying any meaningful interaction for as long as possible from your opponent. Our deck can technically play the control game a bit but that's for rare instances where you are being out-aggro'd. Even then, you're likely better off just trying to push damage faster. I'm really curious as to your reasoning for considering your creatures' defensive utility in the deck. I think it'll help me understand where you're approaching the deck from and allow me to explain my point of view better to you.
As for Avatar, if you're assuming that your mana investment is immediately going to die, then it may not be the best option. For the same mana, you can get Strangleroot Geist (which I think is the real powerhouse card of the deck) that is very resilient, has haste, and facilitates applying pressure for your tempo gameplan. I look at it this way, playing Avatar and having it immediately die means you hopefully got 2 Evolve creatures above 3 power. So you added 2 power to the board and made a 1-for-1 card trade for the opponent. Assuming that power connects, your mana investment got you 2 damage on the turn you played it. But let's say you played Hellspark Elemental instead. Let's say you get a Raptor to 3 power off of it, putting 1 power in play. The opponent kills the Elemental same as the Avatar. You've gained 1 power but only traded 0.5 of a card for their 1 card. You get to spend the second half on the following turn for a total of 4 power (barring no other Evolve creatures entered play). It's bit abstract to compare the two but in a deck that needs to make the most out of the 12-14 cards you're going to see in a normal game, Avatar is a large source of lost potential. Especially when you are curving at 2 and the difference between playing 2 spells in a turn versus 1 is something to be taken into consideration when planning out your turns.
From my experience, 8 Pongify effects is way too many. The creature base can't really support that many without stranding copies in your hand. Even with the Undying creatures, Pongify uses up their recursive resource and only really trades for an opponents card when used defensively (in reaction to removal). It's definitely a very powerful effect in the deck and helps get more power in play on the cheap but a lot of the value of the card isn't in it's ability to directly influence the board state but to make calculations difficult for the opponent. It's existence alone makes any open blue mana on your board into a ton of possible combat tricks that your opponent needs to assess. Regardless of if you have the card in hand or not. And honestly, it only takes one, maybe two, castings in a game to get a lot of value out of it. I could easily see running 5 of the card and maaaybe 6 to make sure you see one every game. However going higher than that is going to leave you hurting to keep your board full and lead to things like Hybridizing your own Lizard Mutant to blank a removal spell for no other value. I tested originally with 4 Rapid Hybridization and I've never thought I needed more since playing with the 4-of.
@brainpipe - It may not have been the main focus but it seems like its inclusion heavily influenced original card choices. The original list's creatures almost all had a way to give themselves +1/+1 counters and while it may have started out trying to be an Evolve deck, Avatar feels like a Timmy inclusion. It has the potential to hit play as a 6/5 or something silly for 2 mana but like I said above, the value it ends up adding to the board rarely ends up being better than just Shocking the opponent. Making your Evolve guys bigger than 3/Xs is rarely going to be relevant. You can hit your goal of getting 7-9 power in play without running undercosted fatties that are going to eat removal before doing anything relevant.
Your point about the deck burning out before closing games is exactly the problem I was running into originally. Like, there's tons of cool lines and ways to get value but at the end of the day, a lot of those interactions are just 1-for-1s and you're going to hit turn 4 with a dude or two on the ground and no way to punch through the last bit of damage. Rancor having built-in recursion, Hellspark having innate evasion and being 2 cards in 1, and Goblin Guide creating immediate pressure all help shave off durdling and add weight to the tempo plan. I tried out Chart a Course like you guys were talking about not too long ago. By using it, you are literally taking a turn off from adding to the board and that's just shooting yourself in the foot as a tempo player. The deck has to have every card count and pull a lot of weight in order to be competitive in the current modern format.
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Sin Prodder
4 Desecration Demon
Spells: 19
4 Blackmail
4 Dash Hopes
3 Geth's Verdict
4 Risk Factor
2 Sword-Point Diplomacy
2 Temporal Extortion
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Nihilith
4 Shivan Wumpus
3 ???
The main rule for building the deck is that the card has to force the opponent to make a choice of some sort. I think I've hit most of the playable ones but there are some big EDH style spells that also fit the criteria, a la Choice of Damnations. There's potential to add Blue to the deck for Gifts Ungiven and Sedraxis Specter but I haven't explored that too much. It'd need more graveyard shenanigans for sure. Probably Raven's Crime.
Goblin Guide is a tenuous inclusion but it works with the life-taxing aspect and the deck needed more 1-drops. My argument for including it is that he forces the opponent to choose between potentially getting free lands or taking 2 damage (which is really pushing the boundaries.
I'm just hoping to bounce this list off the MTGS Hivemind to see if there's any cards I missed or if there's anyone else interested in a deck like this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I definitely agree that my list is more aggressive than the original. Though I don't think it is less of a tempo deck than the original but more so plays on a different axis than the original deck's intent. The original list felt like it was built around trying to make Avatar of the Resolute really big because its fun. Which is fine. Though in my opinion, the power of the deck wasn't playing a 2cmc 6/5 on turn 3 but in it's ability to blank a lot of interaction as well as pump out 3-5 "Wild Nacatl"-type threats by turn 3. So by cutting Avatar and moving away from the +1/+1 theme the deck became more streamlined towards an aggressive end with an emphasis on Evolve and repeating ETB creatures (basically trying to consistently generate 1 mana 3/3s).
The tempo aspect is definitely still there. You want your opponent to spend their mana on spells that you blank with a bunch of 1cmc spells (Hybridizing a creature in response to a Path, Snagging a 3/4 'Goyf, etc.). The main difference is that you can apply more pressure earlier on. Giving your tempo plays more weight because the clock is that much shorter for your opponent. Turn 1 and 2 are going to be the safest time to get threats in to play. Then you're looking to ride out turn 3 and 4 with your tempo spells or overloading on creature threats. Banking on a bit of reach to close out games if the game runs longer than that. Which is generally what tempo decks are looking to do.
T1: Cloudfin Raptor
T2: Experiment One, Goblin Guide, Swing 4
T3: Hellspark Elemental, Swing 11
That sort of a hand is fairly normal but definitely on the ideal side of things. Having Narnam there wouldn't change the number of triggers and actually puts you back 2 damage by turn 3. For an aggro deck, Guide does what aggro does but also fits what is going on thematically well enough to make the inclusion reasonable.
Sorcery
Target opponent chooses a creature they control. Untap that creature and gain control of it until end of turn. That creature gains haste until end of turn.
I know giving your opponent options is "bad" but I think this could be fun. I also have a silly deck idea that this would be perfect in.
4 Cloudfin Raptor
4 Experiment One
4 Young Wolf
4 Goblin Guide
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Hellspark Elemental
Spells: 16
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rapid Hybridization
4 Vapor Snag
4 Rancor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Botanical Sanctum
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Natural State
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Life Goes On
2 Spell Pierce
In general, the deck is a tempo-aggro deck when playing. You have a ton of combat tricks and ways to push through damage, it's just about getting power on to the board as fast as possible. You're looking to lead with an evolve guy, then just play haste dudes to grow them.
Creatures:
Goblin Guide - The best aggro creature out there. Sometimes you play 3 of them by turn 2 and win. Usually it is just a good follow up to some evolve dudes that lets you swing in for ~4 on turn 2 pretty consistently. You also get to see what's coming from your opponent's deck. Free info is always helpful for the aggro player.
Hellspark Elemental - 3 hasty damage on a body that hits play twice. Multiple Evolve triggers and a great target for your Hybridization.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Probably the worst creature in the deck but I've won games off her so I like the 2-of. She works well with Rancor on the Evolve guys and she puts a 2/1 into play pretty easily which also bumps late draw Evolve guys. She also wears Rancor really well.
Avatar of the Resolute - He got axed for Hellspark. I found that he often wasn't closing out games and was rarely bigger than a 3/2 or 4/3 anyways. He only hits play once and doesn't really impact the board as much as I was wanting when playing him originally.
Narnam Renegade - I didn't care for the inconsistency of her if I didn't have a fetch to play on turn 2. Like, it forced weaker lines to get a really mild upside. I swapped it out for Goblin Guide and never really looked back.
Spells:
Rapid Hybridization - I had a few too many games of sitting with a couple Pongify in-hand and no creatures to target. The effect is the core of the deck but 8 was way too many. There's probably an argument to be made for playing 5-6 but 4 is enough to see one a game and have a good "got'em" moment.
Rancor - I was having trouble with evasion and boards getting gummed up. Rancor allowed the deck to slap Trample on something and forces a lot of bad blocks on to the opponent with no real downside. Like, lets say I have a 2/3 Raptor, a 2/2 Guide, and a 3/1 Young Wolf holding a Rancor. Which one are they supposed to kill? It pulls removal from your main damage sources by making something else a more urgent threat. Even targeting a garbage creature with it forces opponents to consider wasting removal to get rid of the Rancor. It's a really versatile card and I've gotten a ton of mileage from it. Also, sometimes you draw 3 and just get there with a 6/1 Raptor.
Vapor Snag - I honestly don't remember if this was in the stock list but it's been an all-star for me. The 1 damage is usually relevant and being able to keep the board clear for a turn is typically enough to push a game in your favor. It also works really well with Rancor as you can boop the blocker and Trample all the damage through. If you play smart, it's a really strong tool. You can also hit your own guys (like Hellspark) for additional Evolve triggers.
Lands:
Fetches - I wouldn't recommend less than 9 fetches and they all have to fetch Green. The deck won't function if you can't hit double Green. Generally I try to hit a G/R dual first, then a G/U, followed by a second G/R. Being able to Unearth and Bolt in the same turn happens more often than needing to Hybridize and Snag in the same turn. However, Raptor always takes precedence. So if it's in my opener, I'm playing it turn 1.
18 lands - This is probably cutting it too close but as a player I'd rather be stuck on 2 and only playing 1-2 spells a turn rather than flooding out. 19 is fine but I wouldn't go higher than that. The deck curves at 2. Having 3 mana is a nice luxury but you get a ton of mileage from your cards. Playing smart goes a long way towards making the most of being a little choked on mana.
The main downside to the deck is that it does a pretty good job of killing itself getting the mana to work. The Burn match up is really rough but Life Goes On helps a fair bit there. It preys on metas full of control/combo decks and Tron. It can put an insane clock into play very fast. Uninterrupted it can win on turn 3 but turn 4 is more common. Against fair/midrange decks, it's alright. Discard heavy hands from the opponent are hard because you'll lose steam but removal heavy hands are generally not a problem. Rest in Peace out of a sideboard hurts a lot but you can play through it. Blood Moon is usually a death sentence unless you happen to draw a very red heavy hand. I think I've only won once after having it cast against me. Either way, sitting on Natural State helps.
Anyways, that's a large info dump... I really enjoy playing this deck and I stand behind the changes I've made to it. If there's anything you guys would like me to elaborate on, I'd be happy to. Thanks for taking the time to read through all of that. Haha.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Cloudthresher
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Primal Command
3 Plow Under
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
19 Forest
3 Autumn's Veil
1 Cloudthresher
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Naturalize
2 Prowling Serpopard
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Back to Nature
On Devotion: I know most of you guys are on the Nykthos plan with untapping effects but outside of the explosive Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf draws, you can just ramp into 5 mana on turn 3 and usually out-tempo your opponent from there. I can see where the interest in Devotion is coming from but I think it dilutes what the deck is trying to do; namely prevent our opponents from playing relevant Magic cards. So focusing more on disrupting their manabase seems to work best for me.
On Bombs: I think Carnage Tyrant is pretty much unbeatable for most decks and he is a very real threat on turn 3/4. To be fair, I haven't played with Prime Time but I can't see myself really wanting to ramp that much more once I've hit 6+ mana in play. Cloudthresher has been amazing at allowing me to play on Control's terms. Flash from a Mono-G deck is unusual and if you are passing with 6 mana up, opponents usually think you bricked for a turn. The 2 damage to flyers and players is usually relevant and it also is just a giant 7/7 dude. Also, if you guys haven't played with Steel Hellkite, you need to get on that train. It's a one-sided Engineered Explosives on a 5/5 flying mana sink. It does everything the deck wants to be doing.
On Bestiary: mistahARK just mentioned that he thinks the deck is lacking card draw/filtering and as he mentioned Lifecrafter's Bestiary does just that. It can come down turn 2 and is at worst a free Scry 1 every Upkeep. Late game it turns all of your dorks into redraws and 6 mana for an Acidic Slime that draws a card (effectively becoming a 2-for-0) is amazing. It competes with lock pieces but I think the added consistency is well worth it. I'd highly recommend giving it a try.
On No EWit: I mentioned above how I never really found myself wanting to go for the Eternal Command loop. I definitely respect the power of the interaction but what gets me about it, is that you are spending 8 mana to blank a draw and a land drop from the opponent. Which on paper sounds like a repeatable Time Walk but it doesn't allow you to interact with what is already in play or in the opponent's hand. So putting a 2/1 into play and blanking a draw just ended up feeling underwhelming when the opponent can still just play other things from their hand. Also, being able to let Primal Command be "gain 7 life + top a permanent/tutor for a fatty" is important for the myriad of aggressive decks out there right now. I just found the value in the loop to be more cute than effective, so I dropped the EWits to make room for more consistent ramp and land destruction.
The sideboard should definitely have a Thragtusk, I'll have to figure out where to slot that in. Beast Within or Dismember should probably also be in the deck somewhere as well. I have found Infect to be almost unbeatable and having a way to keep them off of Blighted Agent is probably worth looking into.
I'm going to be playing it tomorrow night at my LGS's weekly Modern event and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Also, feel free to critique my list. I think it's pretty good but having other sets of eyes is almost always a good thing.
@Xour: I don't think the deck is completely SOL against graveyard hate. Like, losing the Loam engine is rough but beating down with Countryside Crusher, Bloodbraid Elf, or manlands is viable. As is Assault turning your lands into Shocks. I took out the counter magic in my deck and tried running a set of BBE in their stead. It went fairly well at the tournament I played in, going 2-1-1. I beat Jeskai Control, Mono-White Midrange, drew with Jeskai Control (though I was a turn away from winning and would have won had he not drawn back to back Snapcasters during extra turns) and lost to UW Taking Turns. I liked being more proactive but not having ways to interact outside of damage was rough. I'm not sure how to balance that though as counter magic with BBE is awkward.
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells: 28
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
1 Flame Jab
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 25
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nature's Claim
1 Back to Nature
1 Spellskite
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Flame Jab
Edit: Forgot that I swapped (-3) Snapcaster Mage for (+3) Ancestral Vision.
There wasn't anything in Dominaria that stuck out as a useful inclusion into Temur Loam. Though I do really like Sylvan Awakening as a card and I think this deck wouldn't be the worst place for it as a 1-of in the board. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a nice addition to the deck as he does a lot of what you want and is much better than Nissa, Steward of Elements or Jace Beleren. This is the list I am playing with now:
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Countryside Crusher
Spells: 29
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
1 Flame Jab
2 Spell Pierce
4 Deprive
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands: 25
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Counterflux
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dispel
1 Nature's Claim
1 Back to Nature
1 Spellskite
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Flame Jab
The sideboard is really open to tuning and those are just general answers cards I like running. I would like to slot an Engineered Explosives in there but I don't really have a problem with where it is at right now. If you have any questions about the decklist, I'd be happy to answer them. I've only played a couple tournaments with it since the unban and have done pretty well with it.
I don't think dedicating sideboard slots to anti-milling is really going to do anything for you. Mill is how Lantern wins but getting around the lock is what will allow you to win through it. So you need answers to their lock pieces. So, bringing in more artifact removal should work well for you. Though, you're running 4 Ancient Grudge so I can't imagine you'd have trouble finding some hate. They can't really deal with that well, since it works from both your hand and graveyard. You could consider running Nature's Spiral or Treasured Find to get back milled Assaults. I haven't personally had trouble against Lantern with Loam decks. We tend to operate in a way that they can't handle without seeing several "silver bullet" artifacts. If you can stay ahead of those hate cards, you should be able to win without much trouble and before milling out becomes an issue.
Myth Realized requires it to be in play prior to casting all your spells to get the Lore Counters on it. Enigma Drake forces you into UR; which are fine colors for playing lots of spells but is also limiting. Pike is always counting the spells in the graveyard. So it instantly puts power onto what should already be good creatures (eg. Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of Saint Traft, Spell Queller, Young Pyromancer, etc.). I think the real kicker for what makes Pike strong is that it gives First Strike as well as the buff. So your creatures can suddenly start trading well in combat.