Protean Hulk died, triggering it's ability. One of the cards that was fetched was Elvish Visionary. The point of contention is whether or not the draw effect takes place before or after the shuffle the library portion of Protean Hulk's effect resolves.
I am nearly positive that the ETB of Elvish Visionary goes on the stack, to begin resolving once Protean Hulk has finished resolving. But my friend argues that, because of the period separating the two parts of Hulk's effect, that Visionary instead will resolve before you finish resolving Protean Hulk. I'm almost certain he's wrong, but can't find anything in black and white.
Any thoughts on whether Gideon would trigger humans like Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant? In my head it makes sense that, since it's your turn when you play him, he enters the battlefield as a human.
Hope this answer your question. Gideon the most human walker
611.3cContinuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent entering the battlefield. They don't wait until the permanent is on the battlefield and then change it. Because such effects apply as the permanent enters the battlefield, they are applied before determining whether the permanent will cause an ability to trigger when it enters the battlefield.
Example: A permanent with the static ability "All white creatures get +1/+1" is on the battlefield. A creature spell that would normally create a 1/1 white creature instead creates a 2/2 white creature. The creature doesn't enter the battlefield as 1/1 and then change to 2/2.
Damn, too late. Should not look for the rule to reference it
Any thoughts on whether Gideon would trigger humans like Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant? In my head it makes sense that, since it's your turn when you play him, he enters the battlefield as a human.
No. He’s not entering the battlefield. He’s just gaining types, a power/toughness and some keywords.
The poster is asking if gideon would trigger those abilities the turn you play him, not if it would trigger every time he became a human.
Assuming gideon first enters the battlefield on your turn - yes, he would trigger creature ETB abilities like Champion of the Parish since he would enter the battlefield as a 4/4 human. If you somehow put him into play when it wasn't your turn then he wouldn't though since he wouldn't be a creature then.
And yea, his type-changing every turn does not trigger ETBs since he doesn't re-enter the battlefield, he just changes types while on the battlefield.
Exactly what I was asking, thank you. I'm aware that him becoming a creature on subsequent turns doesn't count. I wonder if he'll see play in Modern Humans as a result; the 3 drop slot is crowded as is.
Any thoughts on whether Gideon would trigger humans like Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant? In my head it makes sense that, since it's your turn when you play him, he enters the battlefield as a human.
This is roughly what I'm running. I guess I misspoke when I said budget, because upon further review it looks like the most value comes from the Aether Vials and Caverns more than anything multicolored. The newer Thalia (3 cmc) is interesting, but for now I'll content myself to read up on the thread to avoid asking duplicate questions (such as why Silverblade isn't brought up). Appreciate the quick responses nonetheless; Humans was my first truly successful deck I've piloted; over pod, delver, and RDW alike. I'll be around.
So this is what I've been looking at making to relive the glory days of playing Kuldotha Red(a standard with goblin grenade and lightning bolt was an amazing thing). From the limited testing I've done,I'm afraid I don't have much idea how this compares to the multitude of other modern decks out there, but I do love how it plays out in isolation. Any reason why you don't run Galvanic Blast? And is Signal Pest consistent enough? Part of me feels like it's a tad slow (even as a one drop I know) to include.
So, I have a mono-white humans deck from when it was in standard back during Scars of Mirrodin/Innistrad block. I'm looking to keep it mono-white, mostly due to budget concerns; is there a huge drop off in power because of that, or is it possible to stay mostly competitive without splashing for other colors/coco?
Am I the only one who likes the idea of Boros Dino aggro better? Haven't drawn up a list,nor am I familiar with the current standard, but it seems the evasion of the lower end mixed with burn and exile removal could be effective.
Hope I'm posting this right. I'm new to Yokosuka, Japan, and am looking for somewhere to play, preferrably one that's english friendly. More pressingly, I'm looking for somewhere that's hosting some sort of Ixalan Release Event, whether it be sealed or draft. Anyone else out here that can help?
Also on the Bant Company talk - might it be time to investigate (hahaaaa) the pick the brain + delirium route? If we can nab the company early and be done with them all it would GREATLY increase our chances...so T4 delirium (best case scenario) T5 strip the companies if possible?
I feel like that's not very likely. To get all 4 types in the graveyard before they get to four lands is only possible when they're on the draw, and even then you'd need to have played an Evolving wilds, played both an instant and sorcery, and STILL have had a creature die. And in the cases you can't get delirium, you're then playing a 3 cmc discard spell against a fairly fast tempo deck. I just don't think it's going to get online fast enough to actually snag their Company before they play it in response.
So, I just got back from a local PPTQ, and didn't do as well as I had hoped. I went 3-2, beating some sort of U/B that featured Geralf's messenger, Naya Superfriends, and Mono-red aggro/burn. What I lost to was two variants of Bant CoCo. To my knowledge, there was only 1 human deck; and the top 8 featured 3 coco lists, 2 Gitrog decks, and the last 3 being B/W Midrange, said human deck, and U/W Spirit Tempo (I think lol).
That's what I ran; obviously the sideboard is a bit of a mess. Honestly, I think I need to clean it up and figure out exactly what matchups warrant sideboarding and, if so, what comes out against them. My personal thoughts are to perhaps run a bit more creatures like Ayli and Wasteland Strangler to fend off the onrush of creatures from CoCo, who was a lot more prevalent than I expected.
Pretty much, I went 6-0 against non-Coco lists, who I simply removed creatures and then threw down my PW and ended up winning; or in the case of U/B just ended up winning the top deck battle with Ormendahl.
Anyways, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on what strategies we have against Coco, since I thought I understood the matchup and clearly don't, since I didn't even win a game.
Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
So since I have not seen anyone else put anything up I wanted to mention this. During some grind testing yesterday i ran accross esper walkers (yeah still a thing aparently), it beats us bloody every time. I played 10 games against it and never beat it once. I am attributing a couple of those games to simply playing a new deck and making silly mistakes but the reason i wanted to mention it is that i think we might need to have some extra ruinous path in the side. I run 1 in the main with 3 to the slaughter and still couldn't deal with the walkers.
Well running 3 To the Slaughter is incorrect int he first place IMO. With Sorin, Anguished Unmaking and discard spells you should have a fair time against Esper. I'm not saying it will be a walk in the park, but if you board correctly then it shouldn't be a landslide. I also haven't seen a competitive control list yet besides B/W so I have no basis for side boarding in my local meta against it.
I think i understand what you are saying. However i would like to give a little more context so that actual advice can be discussed. The list I ran against would probably be weird for most other walker type decks but it ran gideon, sorin, ob nixilis, new jace, and narset. Plus counterspells and board wipe. i don't think you can have enough discard, unmaking, and sorin in hand to deal with a board like this. Lets say I take a hand that would be acceptable, two or three lands, a transgress, a duress, and a anguished. OK so nobody does anything until later in the game right? So this mean that even though you can pplay a turn two transgress, they are still going to draw other cards in the mean time until the turn four or five when most things happen. Even if you attempt to trade one for one with the walkers, they have counterspells to back them up as well as simply letting you do it and waiting until you attempt to play any kind of board presence to counter. I'm not trying to whine or say it is an unbeatable matchup but at the same time it is certainly a weakness and pretty much all of our creature kill is completely useless. What I am trying to figure out is what can we have in the side to make a matchup like this more winnable? Like it or not they will have counterspells and we do not so unless they are a horrible control player they will wait until we try to do something or wait until they can play something and protect it. Ob, Narset, Sorin, and jace all pretty much say +1 draw a acard so oncce a walker is down the odds become increasingly stacked with each turn.
Now, I know that the list I played against might end up being a rogue deck you only see rarely but at the same time walker control is thing and we need to have options beyond attempting to lose three life and exile a single card. Discard is a good options we can do it earlier than they can reasonably counter, but I'm not sure if duress and trasngress is enough. Are there other hand control options that would allow us to disrupt them effectively?
This is just me speaking from the experiences I've had with the deck. In a role like that, your creatures are going to do the heavy lifting. They can't counter everything; simply impossible. Just like how you can't remove everything. I don't know how your main is set up, but games 2 and 3 you should slide in as much discard as possible. If you're REALLY having issues, then just delay your turn and then hit them with duress/transgress and when they counter that, follow up with your removal. I can't say I've ever had an issue with control, but I haven't played superfriends so I might be wrong. Also games 2/3 you should probably focus more on your pw removal and ditch some of your creature removal (not all, but you know what I mean.) That's all the advice I know how to give.
So since I have not seen anyone else put anything up I wanted to mention this. During some grind testing yesterday i ran accross esper walkers (yeah still a thing aparently), it beats us bloody every time. I played 10 games against it and never beat it once. I am attributing a couple of those games to simply playing a new deck and making silly mistakes but the reason i wanted to mention it is that i think we might need to have some extra ruinous path in the side. I run 1 in the main with 3 to the slaughter and still couldn't deal with the walkers.
Well running 3 To the Slaughter is incorrect int he first place IMO. With Sorin, Anguished Unmaking and discard spells you should have a fair time against Esper. I'm not saying it will be a walk in the park, but if you board correctly then it shouldn't be a landslide. I also haven't seen a competitive control list yet besides B/W so I have no basis for side boarding in my local meta against it.
This^ Against control matchups our discard is very strong; and we can handle Jace and TITI with ease. Aggro isn't hard either; barring a nut draw we can shut them down before they get out of hand.
My question is, what do we bring in against the mid-range/ramp decks? Seems like anything running eldrazi smokes me and I can never stabilize.
Protean Hulk died, triggering it's ability. One of the cards that was fetched was Elvish Visionary. The point of contention is whether or not the draw effect takes place before or after the shuffle the library portion of Protean Hulk's effect resolves.
I am nearly positive that the ETB of Elvish Visionary goes on the stack, to begin resolving once Protean Hulk has finished resolving. But my friend argues that, because of the period separating the two parts of Hulk's effect, that Visionary instead will resolve before you finish resolving Protean Hulk. I'm almost certain he's wrong, but can't find anything in black and white.
Nah, I appreciate the rule reference!
Exactly what I was asking, thank you. I'm aware that him becoming a creature on subsequent turns doesn't count. I wonder if he'll see play in Modern Humans as a result; the 3 drop slot is crowded as is.
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Grand Abolisher
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Silverblade Paladin
2x Hero of Bladehold
4x Gather the Townsfolk
4x Honor of the Pure
Land:
23x Plains
This is roughly what I'm running. I guess I misspoke when I said budget, because upon further review it looks like the most value comes from the Aether Vials and Caverns more than anything multicolored. The newer Thalia (3 cmc) is interesting, but for now I'll content myself to read up on the thread to avoid asking duplicate questions (such as why Silverblade isn't brought up). Appreciate the quick responses nonetheless; Humans was my first truly successful deck I've piloted; over pod, delver, and RDW alike. I'll be around.
4x Goblin Guide
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
Arifacts:
4x Ornithopter
4x Memnite
4x Bomat Courier
4x Mox Opal
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Galvanic Blast
4x Goblin Grenade
Other:
4x Kuldotha Rebirth
2x Simian Spirit Guide
16x Mountain
So this is what I've been looking at making to relive the glory days of playing Kuldotha Red(a standard with goblin grenade and lightning bolt was an amazing thing). From the limited testing I've done,I'm afraid I don't have much idea how this compares to the multitude of other modern decks out there, but I do love how it plays out in isolation. Any reason why you don't run Galvanic Blast? And is Signal Pest consistent enough? Part of me feels like it's a tad slow (even as a one drop I know) to include.
I feel like that's not very likely. To get all 4 types in the graveyard before they get to four lands is only possible when they're on the draw, and even then you'd need to have played an Evolving wilds, played both an instant and sorcery, and STILL have had a creature die. And in the cases you can't get delirium, you're then playing a 3 cmc discard spell against a fairly fast tempo deck. I just don't think it's going to get online fast enough to actually snag their Company before they play it in response.
3x Declaration in Stone
3x Languish
3x Ruinous Path
2x Grasp of Darkness
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Transgress the Mind
1x Descend upon the Sinful
3x Secure the Wastes
1x Oath of Gideon
3x Read the Bones
2x Kalitas
Planeswalkers:
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands:
4x Shambling Vent
3x Westvale Abbey
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Blighted Fen
5x Swamp
5x Plains
1x Languish
1x Descend upon the Sinful
1x Oath of Gideon
2x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1x Read the Bones
3x Infinite Obliteration
1x Transgress the Mind
1x Dark Petition
3x Hallowed Moonlight
That's what I ran; obviously the sideboard is a bit of a mess. Honestly, I think I need to clean it up and figure out exactly what matchups warrant sideboarding and, if so, what comes out against them. My personal thoughts are to perhaps run a bit more creatures like Ayli and Wasteland Strangler to fend off the onrush of creatures from CoCo, who was a lot more prevalent than I expected.
Pretty much, I went 6-0 against non-Coco lists, who I simply removed creatures and then threw down my PW and ended up winning; or in the case of U/B just ended up winning the top deck battle with Ormendahl.
Anyways, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on what strategies we have against Coco, since I thought I understood the matchup and clearly don't, since I didn't even win a game.
What are you talking about? Both languish and descend ignore indestructible.
This is just me speaking from the experiences I've had with the deck. In a role like that, your creatures are going to do the heavy lifting. They can't counter everything; simply impossible. Just like how you can't remove everything. I don't know how your main is set up, but games 2 and 3 you should slide in as much discard as possible. If you're REALLY having issues, then just delay your turn and then hit them with duress/transgress and when they counter that, follow up with your removal. I can't say I've ever had an issue with control, but I haven't played superfriends so I might be wrong. Also games 2/3 you should probably focus more on your pw removal and ditch some of your creature removal (not all, but you know what I mean.) That's all the advice I know how to give.
This^ Against control matchups our discard is very strong; and we can handle Jace and TITI with ease. Aggro isn't hard either; barring a nut draw we can shut them down before they get out of hand.
My question is, what do we bring in against the mid-range/ramp decks? Seems like anything running eldrazi smokes me and I can never stabilize.