In a removal/discard heavy deck, I'll target my opponent because their yard will be full. But a lot of the time, I use it to target myself, so I can get cards into my graveyard for Loam/Crucible and reanimation strategies.
I didnt think about it in the context of loam and reanimator. It's probably pretty sick with rec too.
I've noticed this popping up in some lists. Is it just a upgrade to plague sliver or is it even better? What does this things average P/T seem to be for most people. Is it an aggro finisher, control finisher, or midrange dude? D you always name your opponent or is there a time when you would name yourself?
I rank Graverobber as one of the better black 2cc cards. He's such a beating. Maindeckable GY hate that can usually bash for 4 on T3, and then repeatedly reanimate creatures out of both yards in the late game? He's a cube monster.
Yeah Graverobber is the real deal. I don't know what 2 drop I would cut from that list. If your dead set on fitting him in I would swap him for sarcomancy since you have the best justifications for that swap. Then just see how it plays out.
I think the proliferate is pretty negligible. One shot poliferate isn't even that great with planeswalkers 90 % of the time. I think the only deck I would run this in would be maybe mono green ramp, and I'd have to have a pool of 21 green cards this and be stuck with 18 lands. My analysis of the card is:
1) like is said a one time proliferate isn't great. The best two things I can think of doing with it is proliferating stax or ever flowing chalice.
2) divination is a bad card. Far from cubable.
3) sure this card is any colors version of a gimped nights whisper, but it's severely gimped. One extra mana is alot for a draw 2 spell. Not to mention nighswhisper itself isn't the card it used to be. I really like the card, but I noticed some people have been cutting it.
4) As creatures get cheaper and cheaper and better and better spells need to do more then fair things with added life loss, and 2 cards for 3 mana is the defenition of core set fair.
Edit - its worth noting that I am evaluating this as a card for an average sized (360-5xxish) powered or non-powered (not tribal, peasant, or pauper) cube. It may warrant some inclusion in cubes out of this range.
It's a little different, but I figured I would ask. If you play a flashback card from your graveyard (example: ancient grudge) can you opponent remove it when you pay the cost to essential counter the spell, or once your announce you are playing it do you pay the cost and remove the card from your yard without of them getting a chance to respond?
If the first card you saw with Undying was Evernight Shade or Butcher Ghoul instead of Strangleroot Geist, I'm willing to bet most people here would have thought it was terrible too. Same with Allies and Bojuka Brigand or Highland Berserker. People here need to stop thinking they have Ph.D.s in game design because they made a Shock variant on the forums. The mechanic is good.
I'm pretty sure anyone who plays a moderate amount of magic new that undying was good. I feel like previewing a 1/1 for six with undying would just make me think. "oh sick they are just making a better version of persist. I can't wait to see the good cards." that is my basic thought with this one as well however it is not as obvious with this mechanic how to make it good. At least with undying your terrible creature a possible two for one.
Edit - someone beat me to this.
I also doubt there would be a 0 cost 0/0 with unleash that can be played from your yard. You can just choose not to u leash the creature and it dies to state based effects. Infinite storm, infinited EtB triggers, infinite dies trigger for 0 mana...
If the cube isn't powered (I include sol ring, other fast mana, library, etc. as power in cube) then no j t money is the top. For sure no other blue card. Treachery is the sick nasty but jace is better. Especially if you pass treachery for him since he is good against treachery. I think the only exceptions would be recurring nightmare, but only if I wanted to have that kind of fun (I still think jace is better) or if the pack was jace, sulfuric vortex, and 13 of the next best blue cards. Then I would take the vortex and let everyone else fight over blue. However the person next to me would win that battle cause they second picked the best card in the cube.
I don't understand how every new deck made in the modern forms has these kind of matchups. Either your testing against suboptimal decks or your playing against suboptimal opponents. If you deck is better then 50% against everything other than combo and better then 50% against everything post board there is no reason people would play other decks. How is it not obvious that this data is clearly skewed by some factor.
I'm not trying to put down your primer I just see this in every new deck primer and I think it's worth stating that it is clearly not true or every one of these decks would be the best deck and the majority of the field would be playing it.
Edit -- n/m I see someone else already mentioned this.
At its best it is comparable to a black lotus. It powers out unbelievably lopsided plays that can end the game very quickly. However at its worst, unlike black lotus, it does nothing and costs you a land. It just to swingy going from auto win openers to auto mull openers.
It looks pretty appetising, but it can be a trap. All the cards you stated (monolith crypt, vault, moxen, ring) don't make workshop good. A lot of people assume that because it is an artifact ritual you need fast mana to make it playable, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's good with artifacts costing 3-6 mana. You need a lot of them for it to be consistent.
Let's say you are building a cube. But instead of starting a cube with a list of cards you want to start with. (your mana leaks, swords to plowshares, and goblin guides) and filling out your list of cards from there. You instead start from the other direction. You make a list of what each section needs to contain. For instance you look at white and decide, I need 4 creature spot removal spells, 2 wrath effects, 6 1 drop beaters, etc, etc. So you create a basic skeleton of what you think the ideal draft enviroment looks like. And then you go find the ideal cards to fill out your skeleton from there.
What would your ideal cube look like if you came at it from that direction.
For instance, I think an "ideal" white section might look like this.
50 cards
Creatures
6 1 drops
-4 Beaters
-1 Utility creature
-1 Creature that becomes more useful as the game progresses
8 2 drops
2 "knights"
2 Evasive creatures
2 Utility creatures
1 defensive creatures
1 Creature that becomes more useful as the game progresses
6 3 drops
2 Evasive Creatures
1 Defensive Creature
1 Midrange Creature
1 Utility Creature
1 Creature that becomes more useful as the game progresses
3 5 drops
1 Angel
1 creature you can somehow get an early use out of
1 Midrange creature
1 6 drop
1 Show stealing OMG bomb creature
1 7 drop
-1 Reanimation target
Spells
4 spot removal spells
-1 enchantment based
2 Board clearers
3 Global Enchantments
2 Counterspells
-"mana leak type counterspells"
2 Artifact/enchantment removal spells
2 spells that help/hurt both players
2 Token production spells
1 Tutors
1 Lifegain Spell
2 Planeswalkers
Some numbers might be a bit off, but you get the idea. while buildng a cube you might find there really are only 3 great white 1 drop beaters. But you should include a fourth mediocre one to make your numbers work. And even if you already have your cube built, after doing this you might realize you are leaning a bit too heavy or a little too light in one area.
So what would your idea cube look like?
To me it looks like you just took an average cube and gave a generic title to every card. What I mean is when I look at your requirements for each CMC all I see are the generic cards people start with when building a cube. Then they fill in the gaps. Example:
6 1 drops
-4 Beaters
Isamaru
Savannah lions
Elite vanguard
Student of warfare
-1 Utility creature
Mother of ruins
-1 Creature that becomes more useful as the game progresses
Weathered wayfarer
Given a choice that is almost always wrong in both limited and constructed. Dealing 6 damage is not a problem, the key is being able to finish an opponent. If you can kill mom it makes the control deck's job so so much easier.
I had this exact situation happen to me last week. Because mother hit play on turn one both games every removal spell in my hand was shut off. If he had even played it on turn 2 I would have been fine.
Agreed.
The only aggro one drop I would play turn one over a mother, if I could play either given my hand, would be a goblin guide.
I didnt think about it in the context of loam and reanimator. It's probably pretty sick with rec too.
I've noticed this popping up in some lists. Is it just a upgrade to plague sliver or is it even better? What does this things average P/T seem to be for most people. Is it an aggro finisher, control finisher, or midrange dude? D you always name your opponent or is there a time when you would name yourself?
What are people's thoughts?
Yeah Graverobber is the real deal. I don't know what 2 drop I would cut from that list. If your dead set on fitting him in I would swap him for sarcomancy since you have the best justifications for that swap. Then just see how it plays out.
1) like is said a one time proliferate isn't great. The best two things I can think of doing with it is proliferating stax or ever flowing chalice.
2) divination is a bad card. Far from cubable.
3) sure this card is any colors version of a gimped nights whisper, but it's severely gimped. One extra mana is alot for a draw 2 spell. Not to mention nighswhisper itself isn't the card it used to be. I really like the card, but I noticed some people have been cutting it.
4) As creatures get cheaper and cheaper and better and better spells need to do more then fair things with added life loss, and 2 cards for 3 mana is the defenition of core set fair.
Edit - its worth noting that I am evaluating this as a card for an average sized (360-5xxish) powered or non-powered (not tribal, peasant, or pauper) cube. It may warrant some inclusion in cubes out of this range.
I'm pretty sure anyone who plays a moderate amount of magic new that undying was good. I feel like previewing a 1/1 for six with undying would just make me think. "oh sick they are just making a better version of persist. I can't wait to see the good cards." that is my basic thought with this one as well however it is not as obvious with this mechanic how to make it good. At least with undying your terrible creature a possible two for one.
Edit - someone beat me to this.
I also doubt there would be a 0 cost 0/0 with unleash that can be played from your yard. You can just choose not to u leash the creature and it dies to state based effects. Infinite storm, infinited EtB triggers, infinite dies trigger for 0 mana...
Aggro: 70/30 Pre- Board, 80/20 Post- Board
Control: 60/40 Pre- Board, 65/35 Post- Board
Tempo: 55/45 Pre- Board, 60/40 Post- Board
I don't understand how every new deck made in the modern forms has these kind of matchups. Either your testing against suboptimal decks or your playing against suboptimal opponents. If you deck is better then 50% against everything other than combo and better then 50% against everything post board there is no reason people would play other decks. How is it not obvious that this data is clearly skewed by some factor.
I'm not trying to put down your primer I just see this in every new deck primer and I think it's worth stating that it is clearly not true or every one of these decks would be the best deck and the majority of the field would be playing it.
Edit -- n/m I see someone else already mentioned this.
It looks pretty appetising, but it can be a trap. All the cards you stated (monolith crypt, vault, moxen, ring) don't make workshop good. A lot of people assume that because it is an artifact ritual you need fast mana to make it playable, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's good with artifacts costing 3-6 mana. You need a lot of them for it to be consistent.
To me it looks like you just took an average cube and gave a generic title to every card. What I mean is when I look at your requirements for each CMC all I see are the generic cards people start with when building a cube. Then they fill in the gaps. Example:
6 1 drops
-4 Beaters
Isamaru
Savannah lions
Elite vanguard
Student of warfare
-1 Utility creature
Mother of ruins
-1 Creature that becomes more useful as the game progresses
Weathered wayfarer
Agreed.
The only aggro one drop I would play turn one over a mother, if I could play either given my hand, would be a goblin guide.
G: oxidize
W: demistify
G/W: destroy both
That would be sweet