Thanks. I'll copy Feline's list from her 11th place finish. I'm only going to play 2 Tops. So, should I play more disruption or draw/cantrip. Like I was thinking of playing 2 Gitaxian Probe as a way to see if it's clear for me to attempt to combo.
I do have a question, most people say that you don't go off unless you have to. While goldfishing (and when I played in the small tournament a few months back), I always go off T4 or 5 even though I wasn't pressured. Hell I've gone off T3 a few times. Should I wait, or just go off if I can?
So if I go -2 SDT, what should I play in it's place? I feel 2 Gitaxian Probe is acceptable.
The SDT are in there for filtering, so you'd probably want Preordain more.
You don't have to wait until the last possible moment, but if you feel it is safe to wait*, then it's likely better. Having 6 Islands in play makes it ridiculous easy.
*You need to consider a lot of factors, including how much damage they could do (Bloodbraid Elf has haste!), how many counter spells they have in hand or could draw on the following turn, how close they are to comboing and if you have disruption, etc.
yeah I pretty much traded a bunch of legacy jund and bug stuff for high tide. I'll add in Pacts and update my list with your suggestions. Should I play more counters main? I don't have any Flusterstorms but sure I can pick them up if needed.
Yeah, you definitely need more than just 4 FoWs. I think the best main deck counter suite right now is 4 Force and 3 Fluster (with the 4th Fluster in the side with some Pacts).
UPDATE: I just traded for 2 more Candelabras. So I'll have a set. So my question (I guess to Feline)...is your build the optimal build? And what's the sb strategy. Sorry for so many newbie questions lol
I'd play only 1 Meditate main and drop Brain Freeze from the main. Mind Over Matter is also unnecessary, especially if you have a 3rd Candelabra. With you want the set of Candelabras, go to 2 Turnabout (or even 1) main.
Definitely think 4 Force of Wills is not enough protection; you need some Flusterstorms (at least 2).
Your local players are quite mistaken about this deck if they think you must run Remand. That card is almost never ran in the deck (it's sometimes seen in Solidarity, but this is not that).
Not a fan of Leyline of Sanctity, unless you're facing a field full of BUG and Deadguy (discard). Even then, Top helps fight that. What is the singleton Hydroblast for? Seems rather random. Surgical Extraction is a must have, and you'd probably want Echoing Truth. Cards to consider are Gigadrowse and some number of either Flusterstorm or Pact of Negation. You're really, really light on protection.
I got trounced today at my local shop at my regular bi-weekly game. 9 people, 4 rounds of swiss. Matchup 1, Dragon stompy. Turn 2 chalice of the void for 1 and a phyrexian revoker naming candelabra. Didn't combo once in 3 games. The next three matchups were all against black running heavy disruption. It was the worst tournament I'd ever participated in, won once in 8 games, drew 1. Watched a total of 4 turn 1 Liliannas resolve. After playing against essentially the same deck 3 matches in a row I'm ready to quit.
vs Dragon Stompy
It's rough when you can't find Force of Will or Cunning Wish (for Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild) in the first 4 turns.
If you're facing a lot of black discard, run 3-4 Flusterstorm in the main, and try Mystic Remora in the side.
I like the idea of having 12 cantrips in the deck. 4 probe, 4 street wraith, and 4 manamorphose. You are right in the fact that I never cast it. but it suits my personal playstyle.
Why 3 LED? Money is the correct answer. But for me the deck works.
Does Street Wraith win games alone? NO. But even if it were another explosive mana source, the hands with him that I would mulligan would still be a mulligan 90% of the time.
Plus, for me, it makes boarding for games 2 and 3 easier. I'm not the best player so any help in making a decision on what to take out helps a lot.
I would just replace the Street Wraiths with Seething Songs. I don't like Spree or Silence in the sideboard, since you should just be focusing on winning and not being slow. You just want 4x Carpet of Flowers for decks with Islands and 4x Pyroblast (not REB*) for decks with Force of Will/Mindbreak Trap. The other 7 cards are irrelevant in a Wish-less build.
*Maximize Pyroblast and don't play REB. You can cast Pyroblast targeting any permanent (or spell), not just blue ones. Thus, if you have it in your hand and have an extra mana while storming, you can cast it for storm. With REB, the permanent (or spell) HAS to be blue.
The sideboard is unfinished but probably going to be that or a close approximation. As for Stomping Ground, well, I actually forgot to get Taiga when I built the deck so I took about $15 and grabbed a Stomping ground till I save up the money for Taiga.
So far the deck hasn't given me any problems I like it the way it is. I myself don't mind Manamorphose. Sometimes it just does nothing, other times I cast rite of flame and funnel it into 2 green mana and cast 2 tinder walls, and other times it adds 3+ to storm.
Why 3 LED? Money?
Street Wraith seems like an actual complete waste of space. What does it do? You never cast it. It doesn't add to storm. You wouldn't keep a hand with Street Wraith and no win condition and hope to cycle into a win condition. Most times that you cycle it you will get a mana source. Why not just run Seething Song instead? I'd rather just have the explosive mana source rather than risk cycling into a win condition when you need a mana source.
Is there a consensus on what is considered the 'optimal' Candleless list? My biggest question is mainly How many MD/SB Pacts/Flusters?
I don't think there really is, since High Tide without Candelabra of Tawnos really never places in large events. As for the forums, it's usually a split between do you run Retraced Image or do you run the Cloud of Faeries and Snap engine.
You should be playing 7-8 counter spells in your main deck, both with and without Candelabra of Tawnos. You want 4 Force of Will, 3-4 Flusterstorm, 0-1 Pact of Negation usually. Honestly, Flusterstorm counters everything that Pact of Negation would counter, except Flusterstorm can't be countered by Force of Will/Spell Pierce/Counterspell.
Now that the Legendary rules has changed, Mox Opal doesn't become a viable option?
I know that seems a strange choice, but Burning Tree Emissary and Deathrite Shaman sounds interesting for me. The first one fix your G mana with RR, when you have Tinder Wall or Xantid Swarm in game 2 and no green source to cast and can be "stormed" in multiples (with EtW seems awesome). And with the popularity of fetch lands, Shaman can be a Birds for free that helps against Reanimator/Dredge, blocks Lackey, punishes control (Mox imprinting Street Wraith FTW)..
Mox Opal was discussed on The Source and ultimately dismissed. You're not running enough artifacts in the end.
Burning-Tree Emissary is a strictly worse Manamorphose, a card I don't like to begin with (though I'm the minority on that opinion).
Deathrite Shaman doesn't do immediately, so it slows our deck down. Also, if you're trying to exile things other than lands, you're using mana you should be using to storm with.
Went to SCG Richmond and played in the sole Legacy win-a-box on Sunday. Split the finals with Tin Fins. I played the same deck I listed here.
Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition
G1: I keep 7 cards on the play, but I need an additional mana source. I decide to keep and pass the turn. He looks confused, and starts to storm. When he cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I decline to discard my hand and scoop.
G2: I make 12 goblins on the play. He plays Belcher, but hits Bayou as the 10th card. I proceed to win.
G3: He storms, but wiffs on Infernal Contract. I play out Belcher with two permanent mana sources and a Grim Monolith in hand. He draws, passes, and I win.
Round 2 vs Jund
Note: He didn't see my deck, but I watched him play, so I have the information advantage.
G1: I make 14 goblins on the play, he plays a Deathrite Shaman, but fails to find Maelstrom Pulse T2 and I win.
G2: He plays a Bayou and passes, and I sigh that doesn't have Deathrite or discard. I play out Belcher and hold double Land Grant and Lotus Petal in hand. T2 he plays a Deathrite and passes, so I draw Tinder Wall and win.
I drew with Tin Fins. We played for fun and I lost since he won the die roll. He T1'd me both games 1 and 3. I got 18 packs but shipped 6 back to my friend who let me borrow $15 to play. I crack Scavenging Ooze, Garruk, and foil Mutavault from my 12 packs.
Like I said in the past, there is absolutely nothing I would change in my maindeck. It's perfect for how I see the deck.
If you say "okay" and your intent is to think about the spell responding but your opponent assumes you are allowing it to resolve, stop them and tell them "I was thinking of responding. I will say 'it resolves' (or give a thumbs up) when I'm done" and continue to play.
Final Thoughts: My first legacy event was a ton of fun. I was super nervous throughout and made several mistakes. The big lesson that I learned was that I should have some MD bounce and some SB bounce. There are a ton of hate creatures out there. And a bunch of people at this store play UW Miracles. So I will definitely need some Wipe Aways for Thalia, Meddling Mage, Teeg, and Counterbalance.
This should be telling you to run at least 1 Snap MD, if not more since you're playing Cloud of Faeries.
Your nerves will settle with more practice. I used to goldfish relentlessly and knew the lines of play well, but I'd still get jittery when comboing in a real game. Deep breathes.
Yeah, that'd be nice.
The SDT are in there for filtering, so you'd probably want Preordain more.
You don't have to wait until the last possible moment, but if you feel it is safe to wait*, then it's likely better. Having 6 Islands in play makes it ridiculous easy.
*You need to consider a lot of factors, including how much damage they could do (Bloodbraid Elf has haste!), how many counter spells they have in hand or could draw on the following turn, how close they are to comboing and if you have disruption, etc.
Yeah, you definitely need more than just 4 FoWs. I think the best main deck counter suite right now is 4 Force and 3 Fluster (with the 4th Fluster in the side with some Pacts).
I'd play only 1 Meditate main and drop Brain Freeze from the main. Mind Over Matter is also unnecessary, especially if you have a 3rd Candelabra. With you want the set of Candelabras, go to 2 Turnabout (or even 1) main.
Definitely think 4 Force of Wills is not enough protection; you need some Flusterstorms (at least 2).
Your local players are quite mistaken about this deck if they think you must run Remand. That card is almost never ran in the deck (it's sometimes seen in Solidarity, but this is not that).
Not a fan of Leyline of Sanctity, unless you're facing a field full of BUG and Deadguy (discard). Even then, Top helps fight that. What is the singleton Hydroblast for? Seems rather random. Surgical Extraction is a must have, and you'd probably want Echoing Truth. Cards to consider are Gigadrowse and some number of either Flusterstorm or Pact of Negation. You're really, really light on protection.
vs Dragon Stompy
It's rough when you can't find Force of Will or Cunning Wish (for Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild) in the first 4 turns.
If you're facing a lot of black discard, run 3-4 Flusterstorm in the main, and try Mystic Remora in the side.
I'm trying to convince her to come to Eternal Weekend or GP DC. They'll be the biggest Legacy events in the US this year!
I would just replace the Street Wraiths with Seething Songs. I don't like Spree or Silence in the sideboard, since you should just be focusing on winning and not being slow. You just want 4x Carpet of Flowers for decks with Islands and 4x Pyroblast (not REB*) for decks with Force of Will/Mindbreak Trap. The other 7 cards are irrelevant in a Wish-less build.
*Maximize Pyroblast and don't play REB. You can cast Pyroblast targeting any permanent (or spell), not just blue ones. Thus, if you have it in your hand and have an extra mana while storming, you can cast it for storm. With REB, the permanent (or spell) HAS to be blue.
Why 3 LED? Money?
Street Wraith seems like an actual complete waste of space. What does it do? You never cast it. It doesn't add to storm. You wouldn't keep a hand with Street Wraith and no win condition and hope to cycle into a win condition. Most times that you cycle it you will get a mana source. Why not just run Seething Song instead? I'd rather just have the explosive mana source rather than risk cycling into a win condition when you need a mana source.
I don't think there really is, since High Tide without Candelabra of Tawnos really never places in large events. As for the forums, it's usually a split between do you run Retraced Image or do you run the Cloud of Faeries and Snap engine.
You should be playing 7-8 counter spells in your main deck, both with and without Candelabra of Tawnos. You want 4 Force of Will, 3-4 Flusterstorm, 0-1 Pact of Negation usually. Honestly, Flusterstorm counters everything that Pact of Negation would counter, except Flusterstorm can't be countered by Force of Will/Spell Pierce/Counterspell.
(This seems like a good 600th post)
Mox Opal was discussed on The Source and ultimately dismissed. You're not running enough artifacts in the end.
Burning-Tree Emissary is a strictly worse Manamorphose, a card I don't like to begin with (though I'm the minority on that opinion).
Deathrite Shaman doesn't do immediately, so it slows our deck down. Also, if you're trying to exile things other than lands, you're using mana you should be using to storm with.
It is currently the only deck I own. I am building Dredge and Solidarity.
With win-a-boxes, Storm is always a solid choice. I expected some, and I know Belcher is just faster.
Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition
G1: I keep 7 cards on the play, but I need an additional mana source. I decide to keep and pass the turn. He looks confused, and starts to storm. When he cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I decline to discard my hand and scoop.
G2: I make 12 goblins on the play. He plays Belcher, but hits Bayou as the 10th card. I proceed to win.
G3: He storms, but wiffs on Infernal Contract. I play out Belcher with two permanent mana sources and a Grim Monolith in hand. He draws, passes, and I win.
Round 2 vs Jund
Note: He didn't see my deck, but I watched him play, so I have the information advantage.
G1: I make 14 goblins on the play, he plays a Deathrite Shaman, but fails to find Maelstrom Pulse T2 and I win.
G2: He plays a Bayou and passes, and I sigh that doesn't have Deathrite or discard. I play out Belcher and hold double Land Grant and Lotus Petal in hand. T2 he plays a Deathrite and passes, so I draw Tinder Wall and win.
I drew with Tin Fins. We played for fun and I lost since he won the die roll. He T1'd me both games 1 and 3. I got 18 packs but shipped 6 back to my friend who let me borrow $15 to play. I crack Scavenging Ooze, Garruk, and foil Mutavault from my 12 packs.
Like I said in the past, there is absolutely nothing I would change in my maindeck. It's perfect for how I see the deck.
This should be telling you to run at least 1 Snap MD, if not more since you're playing Cloud of Faeries.
Your nerves will settle with more practice. I used to goldfish relentlessly and knew the lines of play well, but I'd still get jittery when comboing in a real game. Deep breathes.
Funny you should mention that, because I'm currently building the deck.
As for popular opinion, most will say no. There are dedicated Solidarity players on The Source, however.
Here is my current list, for reference:
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
3 Peek
2 Repeal
4 Reset
3 Snap
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Vision of Beyond
3 Misty Rainforst
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
3 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast