Access to heroes is power. Saying otherwise is just lying. It's like saying that paying to upgrade the damage on a nuke from 250 to 270 isn't pay2win. Sure it won't matter every match, but it's still buying power. I just don't get why people try to claim it isn't. It's the same pay scheme that Magic uses. Access to a wider pool of choices is power.
Access to heroes is power, but your access to heroes past the first dozen or so is gated by play time, not by champion ownership. Not even professional LoL players make any real effort at having a roster deeper than a dozen or so that they'd even think of playing competitively.
I own the whole LoL roster and there aren't more than a dozen champs I'd feel even vaguely comfortable playing in a ranked game, and I'm never an expert in more than 4-5. And this isn't a "I only play OP champs" thing, as I noted earlier I focus primarily on the ADC role and don't play either of the top two ADC picks very often. Each champion just has too much nuance for anyone to become and remain an expert on more than a handful at a time.
If you could hypothetically master most of the roster, you'd get an advantage, but not even top tier players try to do that, anyone who thinks they have mastered even 1/3 of the roster simply doesn't understand what 'mastery' means in LoL.
Are Lol players angry at the pay2win thing because they want the game taken more seriously (and p2w obviously isn't something you associate with serious play)?
I'm not angry about it, it's just inaccurate and a weird thing to bother bringing up.
Didn't see this before I started writing:
Fair enough. The issue this raises with me is that, if you really don't need to unlock all the champs to play competitively, doesn't that mean that champs are bad/lazy design? (also kinda plays into the stale meta thing above). I compare it to dota again, where counter-picking is incredibly important, and where not having full access to heroes would severely impact your team's competitiveness. Either way, I think that that would be a massive flaw with the game.
It's more that the game is balanced well enough that aside from the bottom ~dozen picks (there are exactly 16 picks out of 118 champions currently below a 47% win rate in LoL), you will gain more of an advantage from playing one of the champions that perfectly suit your own playstyle than you will picking the theoretical optimal pick. In Season 3, my top played ADC was Miss Fortune; she was mostly not the best ADC for solo queue in theory, but she suited me better than the top picks.
And let's be clear about that stale meta discussion. Talking about ADCs over a 1 year span, the best picks at the start of S3 were Graves, Ezreal, Corki early, then top picks rotated through Caitlyn, Draven, Ezreal again, Twitch, Miss Fortune did have a few weeks in the sun, then Corki again, Vayne, Varus. The only ADCs who were never literally the best pick at some point in season 3 were Ashe, Kog'maw who is a very team-dependent pick, and Sivir who received a rework at the end of the season because she had a broken design).
The sense in which the meta is stale in LoL is:
You will put 1 player top, 1 mid, 1 jungle, and 2 bottom. Big caveat: competitive teams (but not solo queuers) sometimes lane swap so that it's actually 2 top 1 mid 1 bot, or 1 top 2 mid 1 bot, so there actually is variety there, albeit not as much as in dota. And, since November we've even seen some teams drop the jungler for a second duo lane (with laners farming jungle camps when there's a break in the action) and we've seen some double jungle action. So, pretty much every configuration you can think of except tri lanes. Solo queue players don't experiment that much; too much coordination required for the 30 seconds you have before you start picking (which is a problem with their model imo).
You will have at least 1 Marksman building for high physical damage output.
You will have at least 1 Assassin or Mage building for high magic damage output.
That's really it. It's not as varied as dota, but it's hardly stale. 1/3 to 1/2 the roster won't see play in the professional scene, but there aren't all that many games played there anyway. Nearly every champion has some representation in the Diamond / Challenger tier. There are always a handful of champs who have been intentionally weakened while they're being reworked into a healthier state, but that's not more than a small handful.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, I just feel like its a huge part of the game that riot cut. I also wish that they'd pull a dota and make everything game-related free, and only charge for cosmetic items. God knows how much they make off of those stupid girl-in-tiny-nurse-outfit skins they keep producing.
Little tone thing - you're pretty condescending. E.g. "stupid girl-in-tiny-nurse-outfit skins" - their last four skins were Void Fizz, Super Galaxy Rumble, Battlecast Vel'Koz, and Arctic Ops Varus. Google em. That's a hideous void monster, a super-hero mech pilot, an alien-ish frost archer and a Matrix sentinel homage. 2 of their last 10 skins could be described even remotely the way you did - their valentine's day special (Heartseeker Ashe) and Popstar Ahri - one of the most fan-requested skins ever. You're picking your words in a way that is (intentionally or not) calculated condescension, and isn't even accurate.
So, speaking of season 3 meta, don't forget the C9, the most dominant team in NA, used Ashe, one of the weakest ADC's at the time, to amazing effect. This season, something like 90 champs saw play in the LCS, and it could quite easily be higher, as I missed a few weeks due to school/work related things. There's really only one or two champs that aren't that viable right now, and they are mostly due to being older design that just doesn't stand up to the new design philosophy.
I kind of hope that she stops being FOTM as a support because then they will nerf the duration on her E
It's not her E that gives me problems, it's her Q. One snare, and you've pretty much lost lane early. The duration is insane at rank one, and turns into one of the longest CC's in the game. Yeah, it's slow and what-not, but you are eventually going to get hit by one, and when you do, it's bad. Her plus Draven/Lucian/Sivir is just stupid amounts of damage.
That being said, I don't really think she NEEDS a nerf, but maybe a tune-up on her Q to scale from 1-3 seconds instead of from 2-3?
EDIT: Alistar is also damn hard to use in URF.... His healing's too weak for this mode, his skills put him right in danger and he has no disengage option.... sheesh.
Wat. Alistar is one of the must-ban champs for Urf. AOE knockup on a 2-second CD? Spammable AOE heal? Stupidly tanky w/o having to buy tank items? Option to headbutt people away from you if you're in trouble?
Alistar and Ez are the two champs I hate seeing the most in URF, with Hecarim close behind them. I'm pretty sure I'm done with the mode though, while it was fun at first, now it's just people spamming the OP champs, so if I want to try out someone new, I have to go in knowing that the chances of winning are really low. I'll stick to ARAM and 3's for now, I think.
Personally I think every champ in that mode is pretty strong.
Mundo is terrible, and udyr looks like he'd be terrible. The mode doesn't negate hp costs, and his q is the only thing that benefits from the cd reduction. Udyr also gains next to nothing from the bonuses.
my personal power vote goes to wukong, q with a 1 second cd, and an e that means they'll never get away, plus you can be invisible nearly constantly. Build a trinity and watch the other team explode. Master Yi is also ridiculous. Haven't seen a lucian yet, but it looks like he's probably the best ADC in URF, followed by Sivir.
I second this. Mundo is god-awful...it's like being Mundo in a normal game, but with a better ult...except you explode because you don't have the DPS others do. Hecarim is stupid strong, and Annie isn't half bad either. Still, there's VERY few weak champs in this.
Eh, Turtle tends to make stupid plays a lot when TSM is behind, or REALLY ahead. Usually in a close game, he's better about not being as bad...this split especially, he's looked world-class, though some of that might have to do with Xpecial.
I'd probably put him and Lift-lift together, with each of them having different strengths and weaknesses. Turtle might even be a better fit for all-stars, because his aggressiveness might catch people by surprise, since so many NA ADC's are more passive...Sneaky, Doublelift, Cop...
I voted Dyrus, D-lift, and Xpecial. Gotta send the strongest players, and as much as I like Bjergson, I'd rather him be practicing to keep TSM strong than worrying about all-stars.
I doubt it. I average 6 deaths a game and can't remember the last time I actually won my lane
OP is probably the wrong word, but I've never managed 11 straight wins on ANY champ (even Janna, my previously most successful champion). I definitely feel he's severely underrated.
A big part of it, I'm guessing, is that people forgot how to play against Galio. If you are reasonably good with a champion that has a strong kit, and isn't seeing a lot of play, then you should do well. I have a friend that hit Plat-1 last year in the final 2 months of the season playing nothing but Swain, because nobody remembered how to lane against him, and his damage surprised people. Galio seems like a similar story.
What is everyone's opinion of Nidalee support? I've been arguing with someone about whether she's good in the role or not.
My points: She doesn't bring really any utility to the game, aside from a weak heal and a bit of vision. Her spears don't do anything if you don't build AP, and if you do build enough AP for your spears to do anything, you can't build support items, like Talisman/Crucible/Sightstone/etc. Her ultimate doesn't bring nearly anything to the lane, and if she falls behind, she's beyond useless.
His counter points: If you're good with the champ, anyone can be a support. If you land a spear, you can peel for your carry easily. If you can take Shaco from Bronze to Challenger, then it doesn't matter what the champ pick is if you're good with it.
I'd disagree about when they can safely dive you, but that's a much more complicated discussion and really situation dependant.
Yeah, a non-bruiser is a much riskier proposition in top lane, but it shouldn't be completely unviable. I just think Renekton locks out far too much by himself, while other bullies don't as they have more well defined weaknesses (for instance keeping with Garen he has no proper gap closers so you can position well and fight back).
Eh, I don't think that non-bruiser is completely unviable. There's been quite a bit of Ryze vs. Renekton in the LCS, and it didn't go THAT poorly for Ryze. Kennen and Jayce also do pretty well against him.
I think Renekton definitely needs a nerf, as by himself he shuts out a huge amount of champs from top lane. Being strong early is fine, but he's strong to a point where if you take someone that's a bit squishy without good sustain and make a single mistake early you're going to get utterly crushed in lane (and eventually you won't even be safe under turret due to his ult), while against other lane bullies there's at least options to recover.
Against stuff like Mundo/Shyv/Trundle he's fine, but nerfing him would just open up so many more options up there.
I really don't think that Renekton is that bad, so long as you play smart against him. You just have to know that he's going to leave lane with a CS advantage over you, but you're going to end up scaling better into the late game than him. Honestly, I can't think of anyone top lane that he makes un-viable by being picked.
Yeah, that's standard against all lane bullies. But with Renek more than most others I've seen if you make one small mis-step in positioning you can get chunked badly, and he snowballs a small lead in lane really really hard if you aren't tanky enough to either trade back well with him and/or survive his dives. I just think he's too unforgiving to play against unless you're a handful of champs. Like I'll take Nasus into him any day of the week and just farm up, but with squishier champs I've seen a small-ish lead quickly lead to a point where Renekton can dive 1v1 and kill an opponent from say 80% hp.
I think the main thing is just the point where you can't even sit at your tower happens much quicker against Renek than say a Garen.
I actually think that point happens around the same time, honestly. Both of them can dive you at 6 no problem if you get to 60 percent health or so. I don't know, I just don't think that he's that problematic. Sure, you can't pick any champ into him and expect to win lane, but that's not the way the game is supposed to work, either. I mean, top lane is the home of bruisers, it's generally not a good idea to pick a squishy champ into them anyways. I guess it doesn't matter, I know that Riot is planning to nerf Renekton soon anyways, haha.
I think Renekton definitely needs a nerf, as by himself he shuts out a huge amount of champs from top lane. Being strong early is fine, but he's strong to a point where if you take someone that's a bit squishy without good sustain and make a single mistake early you're going to get utterly crushed in lane (and eventually you won't even be safe under turret due to his ult), while against other lane bullies there's at least options to recover.
Against stuff like Mundo/Shyv/Trundle he's fine, but nerfing him would just open up so many more options up there.
I really don't think that Renekton is that bad, so long as you play smart against him. You just have to know that he's going to leave lane with a CS advantage over you, but you're going to end up scaling better into the late game than him. Honestly, I can't think of anyone top lane that he makes un-viable by being picked.
is riot actually planning on ever nerfing shyvana or should I just give up and quit playing this game right now
I am so extremely tired of her bull*****
They nerfed her two patches ago. Honestly, I don't think she's that much of an issue right now. Renekton, on the other hand, is terrifying. Still, I don't think he needs a nerf, either. Both are in decent spots right now.
I dunno, I just never really even thought about going bite second on support Volibear.
I'm pretty sure that maxing Bite first is the way that Trick2G plays support Voli, when he has to support. It's not terrible. I'd still probably take the slow at level 2 though, since it'll help you just about as much on offense, and a lot more if something goes wrong. It also prevents a TON of creep damage, which will help you win a trade pretty easily as well. That fear has a lot of power in it that a lot of people don't realize.
He's probably one of the best defensive shortstops in the game right now. It's a shame that he'll be out, especially since I've heard lots of talk saying that it'll be until the all-star break, and could possibly be most of the season.
My favorite card of all time is Balduvian Horde. It was the first decent rare I got when I started playing Magic during the transition from 5th-6th edition. Something about the screaming barbarians really did it for me, and I got hooked into the game.
So, speaking of season 3 meta, don't forget the C9, the most dominant team in NA, used Ashe, one of the weakest ADC's at the time, to amazing effect. This season, something like 90 champs saw play in the LCS, and it could quite easily be higher, as I missed a few weeks due to school/work related things. There's really only one or two champs that aren't that viable right now, and they are mostly due to being older design that just doesn't stand up to the new design philosophy.
It's not her E that gives me problems, it's her Q. One snare, and you've pretty much lost lane early. The duration is insane at rank one, and turns into one of the longest CC's in the game. Yeah, it's slow and what-not, but you are eventually going to get hit by one, and when you do, it's bad. Her plus Draven/Lucian/Sivir is just stupid amounts of damage.
That being said, I don't really think she NEEDS a nerf, but maybe a tune-up on her Q to scale from 1-3 seconds instead of from 2-3?
Wat. Alistar is one of the must-ban champs for Urf. AOE knockup on a 2-second CD? Spammable AOE heal? Stupidly tanky w/o having to buy tank items? Option to headbutt people away from you if you're in trouble?
Alistar and Ez are the two champs I hate seeing the most in URF, with Hecarim close behind them. I'm pretty sure I'm done with the mode though, while it was fun at first, now it's just people spamming the OP champs, so if I want to try out someone new, I have to go in knowing that the chances of winning are really low. I'll stick to ARAM and 3's for now, I think.
You should try Infinity edge on him. 325 percent damage crits at max attack speed are stupidly strong.
I second this. Mundo is god-awful...it's like being Mundo in a normal game, but with a better ult...except you explode because you don't have the DPS others do. Hecarim is stupid strong, and Annie isn't half bad either. Still, there's VERY few weak champs in this.
I'd probably put him and Lift-lift together, with each of them having different strengths and weaknesses. Turtle might even be a better fit for all-stars, because his aggressiveness might catch people by surprise, since so many NA ADC's are more passive...Sneaky, Doublelift, Cop...
I voted Dyrus, D-lift, and Xpecial. Gotta send the strongest players, and as much as I like Bjergson, I'd rather him be practicing to keep TSM strong than worrying about all-stars.
A big part of it, I'm guessing, is that people forgot how to play against Galio. If you are reasonably good with a champion that has a strong kit, and isn't seeing a lot of play, then you should do well. I have a friend that hit Plat-1 last year in the final 2 months of the season playing nothing but Swain, because nobody remembered how to lane against him, and his damage surprised people. Galio seems like a similar story.
My points: She doesn't bring really any utility to the game, aside from a weak heal and a bit of vision. Her spears don't do anything if you don't build AP, and if you do build enough AP for your spears to do anything, you can't build support items, like Talisman/Crucible/Sightstone/etc. Her ultimate doesn't bring nearly anything to the lane, and if she falls behind, she's beyond useless.
His counter points: If you're good with the champ, anyone can be a support. If you land a spear, you can peel for your carry easily. If you can take Shaco from Bronze to Challenger, then it doesn't matter what the champ pick is if you're good with it.
Eh, I don't think that non-bruiser is completely unviable. There's been quite a bit of Ryze vs. Renekton in the LCS, and it didn't go THAT poorly for Ryze. Kennen and Jayce also do pretty well against him.
I actually think that point happens around the same time, honestly. Both of them can dive you at 6 no problem if you get to 60 percent health or so. I don't know, I just don't think that he's that problematic. Sure, you can't pick any champ into him and expect to win lane, but that's not the way the game is supposed to work, either. I mean, top lane is the home of bruisers, it's generally not a good idea to pick a squishy champ into them anyways. I guess it doesn't matter, I know that Riot is planning to nerf Renekton soon anyways, haha.
I really don't think that Renekton is that bad, so long as you play smart against him. You just have to know that he's going to leave lane with a CS advantage over you, but you're going to end up scaling better into the late game than him. Honestly, I can't think of anyone top lane that he makes un-viable by being picked.
They nerfed her two patches ago. Honestly, I don't think she's that much of an issue right now. Renekton, on the other hand, is terrifying. Still, I don't think he needs a nerf, either. Both are in decent spots right now.
I'm pretty sure that maxing Bite first is the way that Trick2G plays support Voli, when he has to support. It's not terrible. I'd still probably take the slow at level 2 though, since it'll help you just about as much on offense, and a lot more if something goes wrong. It also prevents a TON of creep damage, which will help you win a trade pretty easily as well. That fear has a lot of power in it that a lot of people don't realize.