plus a lot of older people are retiring, which could help younger people find jobs but could drain a lot on the system.
Yea but here comes the immigration part of the economy. So you have a good balance of young and old people and not many industrialized countries have that.
I think there really is another depression coming but I think it wouldn't be as bad as people think it would. I mean it would come because the education systems suck and in almost all the West people are generally pretty lazy. But looking overall at America, USA still has huge unused land that can support a growing economy (something that china doesn't have),a lot of natural resources and maybe even more importantly, lots of young people from Latin America constantly immigrating to USA all the time and economies run on young people (something china will soon not have because of their 1 child policy).
And how many people have had their antisemitism grow because Israel identifies itself as Jewish?
Not too much because most of Israel's critics are leftists and leftists are rarely racist. Well that's the West, in the Muslim world antisemitism grow like Hitler only dreamed it would but its a lot less harmful then Western one. In Muslim countries that actually grow economically like Turkey for example, antisemitism is a lot weaker and I'd like to think the same would happen someday in countries like Egypt when they develop.
But just a correction, its not Israel's Jewish identity that causes the Muslim antisemitism, its the fact Israel exists and it hit the Muslim world all the way from Morocco to Pakistan on the day Israel declared independence with antisemitism. Even if Israel would not be a Jewish country but only a country that has a lot of Jewish people the conflict would have still happened. But as long as we have Israel, antisemits can do a lot less harm.
Researches about the holocaust also show that places with more Jews developed much more antisemitism then those with less so the fact Israel exists could have actually decreased the number of antisemits (in europe and America) but that's something we will never know for sure.
This is the problem with Israel calling itself a Jewish state. They think they can hide behind calling everyone an anti-semite who criticizes them. My criticism is of Israel. If they choose to identify Israel with Judaism, it's not my problem.
Nobody said it's you're problem. Darfur is also not you're problem.
But please notice the difference between the ethnic and religious definitions of Judaism. Israel is a Jewish country in the sense of ethnicy, no religion. Just like Japan is the country of the Japanese, not the Shintos (or whatever that religion is called).
And not everyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemit, i for one believe most aren't. But the fact that there are a lot of critics that criticize Israel because of antisemitism causes some people overestimate the number of those antisemit critics.
Sure it can. Israel can be conquered by its populous and motivated neighbors, for instance. If I were a Jew, I'd find the Americas or Europe a much safer place than Israel. Short or long term.
You're underestimating Israel's military Even economically looking its safer then Europe, American economy is another story.
Furthermore, you cannot justify injustice on the basis that the world might change, any more than you can kill a child on the basis that he might be the next Hitler. You do right by the world as it is, not the world you fear in the future.
Nobody's 'killing any children so they can't become Hitler'. I didn't imply anything like that. For injustice, I don't see anything about Israel's creation as injustice. It could have been created without moving anyone from his home and like I said there where already large areas Jews made the majority in, including Jerusalem, and enough in order to make a country.
And yet pluralistic countries like the United States and Canada seem to muddle along just fine somehow. (And by "muddle along" I of course mean "culturally and economically lead the rest of the world".)
You're talking about something different. USA and Canada are countries based on immigration from many other countries and many different people. Its not historic place for those people (except native americans) and their origins already all have their own countries in other places. What I'm trying to say is that USA does not come as an all its citizens country instead of its the bloodlines countries because it comes in addition to them. Having a USA isn't instead of having an Ireland or an Italy.
But don't think the American success came because its not a bloodline country, it came from various reasons like the geographic place and the wars in Europe.
What on earth gives you the impression that I think the first option is better? Was it the part where I told IcecreamMan80 " In the real world, there is no reversing the mistake. The only way to 'fix it' is the peace process"?
I got the impression from the various times said how Israel should seize to exist because of the sole reason that it gets involved in wars. But I might have confused you're posts with some other guy around because I answered a different guy almost every second post, maybe it was Harkius. Sorry about that then.
You're not trying to understand my opinion. You're just lashing out at me because you perceive me as an enemy. This is precisely the kind of behavior that results in alienation from potential friends, and is precisely the reason why an overzealous use of the victim card is self-destructive.
Fine I take back everything you find offensive. I'm honestly trying not to go that way here when I keep getting all those personal insults by Harkius. Oh right, his not flaming me, his flaming my line of thought...
No, it proves the USA could not be your protector seventy years ago. But as I said, the world has undergone a sea-change since the Holocaust.
PS: How many countries do you think are "next to" the United States?
The world has changed a lot and I'm sure USA today would not do what it did but the world can change again.
The country I was talking about is the Dominican Republic but it would be unfair to blame it all on USA for them not taking inn the Jews they agreed to take because it was economic problems she had that didn't allow it. Although USA could have done something about it...
Yes it can. Why couldn't it? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than artificially creating new states for every oppressed minority by kicking the current inhabitants off their land. Whose land should we take to create the Romani state?
Because too many people demand to rule themselves. If I'm correct its even scientifically proven that people need to categories other people and not see everyone as the same.
As for kicking others off the land, its not even a must. There were enough areas Jews made the majority in for a country to be made. And it really was made by the UN. If everyone would have been OK with it there wouldn't have been any wars but the Arabs could not agree to have a Jewish state around and made war.
The Arab states have behaved unacceptably towards Israel. That does not absolve Israel of all wrongdoing.
But here is the problem because the conflict could have always be solved by:
a. Kick all the Jews out, no more Israel.
b. Arabs learn to live side by side with Israel.
And you seem so sure the first option is the better one but why?
But Banon, not every Jew thinks this way. One of my mentors in college was a Jew (originally from Yorkshire) who spent some time on a kibbutz in Israel as a youth, and whose family is still very much involved in the country... as advocates of Palestinian human and political rights. I wouldn't call them anti-Zionists, though; that label only applies to some other Jews.
They are far from making the majority of the Jewish opinion on the mater. Most people and it includes most American Jews can't imagine how USA will even change but it can happen and the majority of Jews do think the only place safe on the very long term is a Jewish country.
They are never, as a people, condemned for the incident (though it is treated as a mistake on their part)
I know this is how most Christians see it today but radical Christians often see it differently, just like Christianity did in the past. At times they give less credit to the fact Jesus was a Jew when thinking of how Jews killed him. Historically that's bull**** but that's what radicals do.
This is one of the worst things wrong with the world today. The good news is, this sort of medieval barbarism is slowly fading away.
I don't think that's fading away. In return for having countries based on bloodlines lots of new small countries pooped out that are based on bloodlines themselves. Sometimes they are ridiculously small too.
I dispute this. Come to the USA. Move next door to me. When I have a daughter, your son can marry her (assuming he's not just, you know, a regular-variety dick :P). Can I be more clear? I don't think I can be more clear.
USA didn't except Jews when they tried to escape Nazi Europe and that ended up with the German Jews staying around when the holocaust happened. It was more then USA denying Jews entry, a small republic next to USA agreed to take in almost all the Jews who wanted to flee Europe but USA didn't allow that to happen because it would make USA look bad. Why did USA do that? Lots of reasons but a big one is that when a place has a lot of Jews antisemitism grows much faster and USA probably didn't want that. USA refusing to bomb the Nazi death camps is another point that proves even USA cannot be our protector.
I dispute this. Come to the USA. Move next door to me. When I have a daughter, your son can marry her (assuming he's not just, you know, a regular-variety dick :P). Can I be more clear? I don't think I can be more clear.
That's hardly the answer because the majority of those Palestinians who have been in refugee camps all their lives are not exactly found of Jews who they are told endless stories about.
And its not having a country different then anyone else, like I said many other countries are the same (Maybe most but I don't know the exact number). The world can't just be one big country for everyone you know.
I think any two-state solution that does not include some variety of dual access, if not shared control, over Jerusalem, is a deliberately unacceptable solution offered only for the purpose of being rejected so the opponents can be accused of being dishonest. Any honest and fair solution will recognize that Jerusalem MUST be shared.
Jerusalem is a big issue but its just another thing to be debated in a 2 state solution. When it comes to that it can be traded by many things such as more land outside Jerusalem, a connector for the West bank and Gaza, evacuating more settlements, giving more electromagnetic wavelengths (yes, its also something that needs to be settled when were so close), etc.
You see anti-semitism under every rock, but every solution you come up with is based on dividing people up on the basis of their ethnic origins. Are you even listening to yourself? Anti-semitism will never be defeated if you continue to feed the racist mindset by treating race as if it were a thing that mattered. This is the way in which racism serves as a set of perceptual blinders and a kind of mental poison, even for people of good intent.
Making war is not a demand for Israel to exist. Israel could have had no wars at all from its first day if Arabs could have agreed to the UN foundation of Israel. It could also have helped of countries like Egypt, Syria and Jordan would honor how the UN also founded a palestinian state. Instead of saying Israel brings wars so it needs to go, why don't you say Arabs need to except Israel's right to exist and not make any more wars?
LOL. This is really so wrong it's actually funny. Jewish-Americans do *not* go to bed at night thinking, "Whew, I'd be worried to print that op-ed calling Sarah Palin a whacko, but thankfully Israel's there, half a planet away, ready to jump to my defense at any moment! And if things get too bad here what with the mortgage and car payments and having difficulty finding a good manicure, why, I could always trade all that in for huddling in my basement during a rocket attack!" ¬_¬
No they don't think that but they do think that if times are hard in America they will have someplace else to go. Right now for example antisemitism is rapidly growing in Turkey so many Turkish Jews escape to Israel, the same thing happened with Iran and is still happening today. In the recent years growing antisemitism also made Jewish people from places like France and Britain to go to Israel.
As for a backing, there is not much need in USA right now but I'll give you an example:
Radical Muslims made two terror attacks in Argentina around the 1970's on Jewish communities. Argentina did not investigate it too much and recently even offered Iran to drop the issue in return for improving relations with her. The only ones left who could investigate was Israel.
Well, in Europe they made the mistake (IMO) of officially banning anti-semitic speech. No First Amendment over there, you know. This naturally had the opposite effect than was intended, and led to a proliferation of hate speech, and hatred. :\
Its far from ended, its just continued with "Zionists" instead of "Jews".
For Europe, if there as no Israel it would not be possible to get all the Jews in USA, many if not most of who you see in Israel today would go to Europe. And as history has shown, places with a lot of Jews develop antisemitism more easily so a USA with double as much Jewish people as it has today would be different then what we see today.
O RLY? Please relate for us, here, the price the Zionist settlers paid the then-inhabitants of what is now Israel for the lands they settled on, stated as qty. / sq. mi. Either period money or current $US adjusted for inflation will do.
From its earliest days the Zionist organization made the organization "keren kayemet leisrael" to do that. It mostly got its money form rich Jewish people around the world. It operated mostly around the Ottoman times, not in the British times because the British banned the sale of Lands to Jews. The exact number of the money spend I'm sure can be found on the internet but I'll give a link later because I gtg now, it was a long reply.
Edit: Ok found something it did in it's early days: The orginisation was founded in 1901 and by 1904 it made it's first purchase of about 3600 Dunam from landowners, paying 20 frank per Dunam. (1 Dunam is about 1/4 acres so 3600 dunams is about 900 acers). I'm posting this because it's something but I didn't find a reliable source that says the exact amount of money spent in one place. Instead I found in the "keren kayemet leisrael"'s site about 30 Hebrew pages explaining the history. Don't have the time to go over all of it right now but here's the link anyway: http://www.kkl.org.il/kkl/hebrew/nosim_ikaryim/al_kakal/history/asorkkl/asorim.x
The English version of the site doesn't have those pages so don't bother with it unless you feel like google translate.
Let me say this again, I am not anti christian. I am aware most Christians are not antisemitic and that today another holocaust is not possible in the christian world.
What I am saying is that radical Christians are usually so. You want an example? I can easily name KKK for one. Let me give you another one: Neo Nazi groups (they aren't always religious but they are built mostly out of christian people). But again, today radical Christians don't have much power, something that can change over time.
This is both 1) factually untrue, as the US has a far larger percentage of Christians than Europe and 2)Evidence of a raging anti-christian attitude just under the surface.
Europe has a much larger percentage then you think it does if you try not to count the new minorities, and there is the fact USA has far less radical Christians then Europe.
The fact I brought up that radical Christians are usually antisemitic suddenly makes me so hateful of Christians? No but it makes me understand that at hard times christian communities could turn more radical and that usually means more antisemitic. Today Europe and USA aren't in such bad times but anything can happen when you look a little into the future. Maybe after a devastating war happens or Muslim immigration affecting Europe's Christian communities.
most of us are from the US or Canada, but there is a significant international portion as well. Look at the little flag deally under most people's names -- thats their country of origin.
I can see that but the ones commenting my reply seem to me like Americans. The only guy around that isn't seems to be Tuss.
I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said you are being more anti-christian, then the amount of anti-semitism an average american Jew would encounter on a given day.
I never said anyone said it doesn't exist. But there were some doubts its a serious problem for Jewish people around the world.
I did say its a lot more minor in USA then in Europe. I'm taking all you guys are from USA right? If you're in Europe and still don't see the antisemitism then you're just blind. Hell even on the internet try going to European forums and see for you'reself.
As far as antisemitism goes, if you think it doesn't exist that much then enjoy you're American bubble.
You're writing sounds exactly like the writings of anti-Semites with the word "Christian" substituted for "Jew".
Not even close. I have nothing against Christians and even have Christian Arab friends but the fact is that in Christianity its told that Jews killed Jesus and that makes almost all the radical christian groups antisemitic.
Barring the destruction of all life on Earth, you'll need to worry about winter. There is no such certainty with respect to another genocide attempted on the Jews.
You say that as if you know what the chances are for another genocide attempt. I said why I think it can be attempted without an Israel existing, say why do you think it can't.
hat's great. Except that geopolitical affairs aren't justified by paranoia. Such a thing is just...insanity.
Paranoia is irrational fear. In geopolitics affairs its not irrational to fear an invasion from others and it would be foolish not to do so. I gave the Russian example and if you don't like it then I can give more.
If radical Christians came to power in the US, and if they were willing to ignore the probability of the country revolting due to their illicit and unacceptable actions, then maybe Jews would be in some danger.
If radical Christians got control of USA I doubt it will only be Some harm they would cause to the Jews if there would be no place they can be kicked to or anyone to stand up for them against the government. But USA is a bad example because it has large unchristian population, unlike Europe.
I don't know if you're aware of this, but everyone doesn't hate Jewish people. It's true! I know it's amazing, but it's true!
Nope. not every single person is antisemitic. But as a Jew that has family around the world I can tell you there is antisemitism everywhere. Even in good old America. But you wouldn't understand because you can't see antisemitics for who they are unless you're Jewish.
First, Israel isn't going to go to war with the US. If they do, the world will put them down like a rabid dog. That would be the point where everyone realized that Israel is not tolerable at all.
Except Russia, China and others. But that doesn't even matter because I didn't say anything close to Israel making war with America. I said that without Israel Jews in America would be a lot less safe then they are with Israel existing to back them up in hard times.
Third, you feeling safe and warm and happy is not a sufficient justification for murdering people. Never was, never will be.
My will to survive is very much a justification for making my own country. Making my own country is not killing others, its buying lands and industrializing them. The war part is Palestinians who prefer war instead of sharing the land, war is not a must for Israel to exist if noone wants it.
Who the hell will want to become a cop with such a law? Not to mention that it would be immoral to hold cops under laws that would fit a fascist regime. The fear they would face everyday and paranoia of people lying about them would be overwhelming.
yea, as an arab american whos parents grew up in Lebanon ill tell you now that Israel has had enough problems. The media portrays some of these Palestinians as unarmed when they are in fact armed to the teeth (ive seen it I was in Lebanon during the summer when they bombed the airport and I had to be evacuated). The truth of the matter is most of these individuals do not believe Israel has the right to exist.
Thx for posting this. If I may ask, are you SLA or have a SLA family?
Icecreamman,
A lot if not most of today's countries are based on bloodlines, unlike countries like USA or France. In Israel's case there's a reason, we didn't just come here because we like the weather, were here because we need a country for ourselves. If all those Palestinians who want to come will be allowed in it would not be a Jewish country anymore and will no longer be our country. Palestinians who want to come should go to Gaza or the West Bank and have their own country. Two countries for two people is the best solution. Plus, Palestinians don't exactly want a Jewish minority in their country.
Aside from that I think Jordan should be named Palestine and maybe annex some parts of the West bank and Gaza. Jordan is part of the historic Palestina and has an overwhelming Palestinian majority. Its not called Palestine today because the British Empire gave that land to some loyal small tribe, but now when the colonial days are over I think its about time the Bedouin minority gives the leadership to the majority and historic owners of the land.
Just pointing out here...if you had paid any attention, or read back a page or two...I know there are 14-15 million I'M the one who linked their population and residencies, but 45% live HERE< and I was talking about the 45% that live >THERE (6-7million in ISRAEL)
Well I read only that post before replying so I misunderstood, nvm then.
You got your history wrong.
Some Jewish people did LIVE there, but alongside Arabs.
I think he means what happened before Arabs came. Before the Arabs came it was Jewish, around 2000 years ago. Between the time Arabs expanded into Israel and the time of the Jewish kingdom there were mostly people brought in by various empires that ruled their subjects by forcing people into places unknown to them so they will feel less patriotic and therefore not rebel.
Honestly. If the American Indians kept fighting back, even to today, attacking us, blowing up a starbucks or two, using sneaky tactics because we have much bigger guns. I'm pretty sure we would kick their asses some more. Because the land is ours now
But would you say that its right?
I don't get whats with the opposite opinions you have. Why couldn't we say "Because the land is ours now" just like you did?
And its true, you bit the Indians in wars so you get the loot. That's how history goes.
The jewish nation of israel was carved out by the UN after WWII. In order to rid europe of all the jewish prisoners they were sent back to israel and the land was carved out for them. the arabs at the time protested but the UN held it's ground.
In 1948 Israel declared independance from british and UN rule and became their own nation.
Right after that there was an invasion (just one of many) in which the other arab countries lost.
All true. I'd just like to add that in the first few years Israel was more neutral-pro soviet in the cold war. It was the communist block that sold Israel the weapons needed to win Israel's war of independance and it was the Soviets that wanted to support Zionism so someone could finally kick the British out of the middle east and cut off the connection between Britain's bases in N. Africa and Iraq/Jordan. Israel only joined USA in the cold war in the Korean war by sending aid to S. Korea.
Yea but here comes the immigration part of the economy. So you have a good balance of young and old people and not many industrialized countries have that.
Not too much because most of Israel's critics are leftists and leftists are rarely racist. Well that's the West, in the Muslim world antisemitism grow like Hitler only dreamed it would but its a lot less harmful then Western one. In Muslim countries that actually grow economically like Turkey for example, antisemitism is a lot weaker and I'd like to think the same would happen someday in countries like Egypt when they develop.
But just a correction, its not Israel's Jewish identity that causes the Muslim antisemitism, its the fact Israel exists and it hit the Muslim world all the way from Morocco to Pakistan on the day Israel declared independence with antisemitism. Even if Israel would not be a Jewish country but only a country that has a lot of Jewish people the conflict would have still happened. But as long as we have Israel, antisemits can do a lot less harm.
Researches about the holocaust also show that places with more Jews developed much more antisemitism then those with less so the fact Israel exists could have actually decreased the number of antisemits (in europe and America) but that's something we will never know for sure.
Nobody said it's you're problem. Darfur is also not you're problem.
But please notice the difference between the ethnic and religious definitions of Judaism. Israel is a Jewish country in the sense of ethnicy, no religion. Just like Japan is the country of the Japanese, not the Shintos (or whatever that religion is called).
And not everyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemit, i for one believe most aren't. But the fact that there are a lot of critics that criticize Israel because of antisemitism causes some people overestimate the number of those antisemit critics.
You're underestimating Israel's military
Nobody's 'killing any children so they can't become Hitler'. I didn't imply anything like that. For injustice, I don't see anything about Israel's creation as injustice. It could have been created without moving anyone from his home and like I said there where already large areas Jews made the majority in, including Jerusalem, and enough in order to make a country.
You're talking about something different. USA and Canada are countries based on immigration from many other countries and many different people. Its not historic place for those people (except native americans) and their origins already all have their own countries in other places. What I'm trying to say is that USA does not come as an all its citizens country instead of its the bloodlines countries because it comes in addition to them. Having a USA isn't instead of having an Ireland or an Italy.
But don't think the American success came because its not a bloodline country, it came from various reasons like the geographic place and the wars in Europe.
I got the impression from the various times said how Israel should seize to exist because of the sole reason that it gets involved in wars. But I might have confused you're posts with some other guy around because I answered a different guy almost every second post, maybe it was Harkius. Sorry about that then.
Fine I take back everything you find offensive. I'm honestly trying not to go that way here when I keep getting all those personal insults by Harkius. Oh right, his not flaming me, his flaming my line of thought...
The world has changed a lot and I'm sure USA today would not do what it did but the world can change again.
The country I was talking about is the Dominican Republic but it would be unfair to blame it all on USA for them not taking inn the Jews they agreed to take because it was economic problems she had that didn't allow it. Although USA could have done something about it...
Because too many people demand to rule themselves. If I'm correct its even scientifically proven that people need to categories other people and not see everyone as the same.
As for kicking others off the land, its not even a must. There were enough areas Jews made the majority in for a country to be made. And it really was made by the UN. If everyone would have been OK with it there wouldn't have been any wars but the Arabs could not agree to have a Jewish state around and made war.
But here is the problem because the conflict could have always be solved by:
a. Kick all the Jews out, no more Israel.
b. Arabs learn to live side by side with Israel.
And you seem so sure the first option is the better one but why?
They are far from making the majority of the Jewish opinion on the mater. Most people and it includes most American Jews can't imagine how USA will even change but it can happen and the majority of Jews do think the only place safe on the very long term is a Jewish country.
I know this is how most Christians see it today but radical Christians often see it differently, just like Christianity did in the past. At times they give less credit to the fact Jesus was a Jew when thinking of how Jews killed him. Historically that's bull**** but that's what radicals do.
I don't think that's fading away. In return for having countries based on bloodlines lots of new small countries pooped out that are based on bloodlines themselves. Sometimes they are ridiculously small too.
USA didn't except Jews when they tried to escape Nazi Europe and that ended up with the German Jews staying around when the holocaust happened. It was more then USA denying Jews entry, a small republic next to USA agreed to take in almost all the Jews who wanted to flee Europe but USA didn't allow that to happen because it would make USA look bad. Why did USA do that? Lots of reasons but a big one is that when a place has a lot of Jews antisemitism grows much faster and USA probably didn't want that. USA refusing to bomb the Nazi death camps is another point that proves even USA cannot be our protector.
That's hardly the answer because the majority of those Palestinians who have been in refugee camps all their lives are not exactly found of Jews who they are told endless stories about.
And its not having a country different then anyone else, like I said many other countries are the same (Maybe most but I don't know the exact number). The world can't just be one big country for everyone you know.
Jerusalem is a big issue but its just another thing to be debated in a 2 state solution. When it comes to that it can be traded by many things such as more land outside Jerusalem, a connector for the West bank and Gaza, evacuating more settlements, giving more electromagnetic wavelengths (yes, its also something that needs to be settled when were so close), etc.
Making war is not a demand for Israel to exist. Israel could have had no wars at all from its first day if Arabs could have agreed to the UN foundation of Israel. It could also have helped of countries like Egypt, Syria and Jordan would honor how the UN also founded a palestinian state. Instead of saying Israel brings wars so it needs to go, why don't you say Arabs need to except Israel's right to exist and not make any more wars?
No they don't think that but they do think that if times are hard in America they will have someplace else to go. Right now for example antisemitism is rapidly growing in Turkey so many Turkish Jews escape to Israel, the same thing happened with Iran and is still happening today. In the recent years growing antisemitism also made Jewish people from places like France and Britain to go to Israel.
As for a backing, there is not much need in USA right now but I'll give you an example:
Radical Muslims made two terror attacks in Argentina around the 1970's on Jewish communities. Argentina did not investigate it too much and recently even offered Iran to drop the issue in return for improving relations with her. The only ones left who could investigate was Israel.
Its far from ended, its just continued with "Zionists" instead of "Jews".
For Europe, if there as no Israel it would not be possible to get all the Jews in USA, many if not most of who you see in Israel today would go to Europe. And as history has shown, places with a lot of Jews develop antisemitism more easily so a USA with double as much Jewish people as it has today would be different then what we see today.
From its earliest days the Zionist organization made the organization "keren kayemet leisrael" to do that. It mostly got its money form rich Jewish people around the world. It operated mostly around the Ottoman times, not in the British times because the British banned the sale of Lands to Jews. The exact number of the money spend I'm sure can be found on the internet but I'll give a link later because I gtg now, it was a long reply.
Edit: Ok found something it did in it's early days: The orginisation was founded in 1901 and by 1904 it made it's first purchase of about 3600 Dunam from landowners, paying 20 frank per Dunam. (1 Dunam is about 1/4 acres so 3600 dunams is about 900 acers). I'm posting this because it's something but I didn't find a reliable source that says the exact amount of money spent in one place. Instead I found in the "keren kayemet leisrael"'s site about 30 Hebrew pages explaining the history. Don't have the time to go over all of it right now but here's the link anyway: http://www.kkl.org.il/kkl/hebrew/nosim_ikaryim/al_kakal/history/asorkkl/asorim.x
The English version of the site doesn't have those pages so don't bother with it unless you feel like google translate.
Because I was not speaking to you but to someone who seems to think otherwise.
I've already explained why I think my opinion, maybe you should too? Why is antisemitism not a serious problem for Jews?
What I am saying is that radical Christians are usually so. You want an example? I can easily name KKK for one. Let me give you another one: Neo Nazi groups (they aren't always religious but they are built mostly out of christian people). But again, today radical Christians don't have much power, something that can change over time.
Europe has a much larger percentage then you think it does if you try not to count the new minorities, and there is the fact USA has far less radical Christians then Europe.
The fact I brought up that radical Christians are usually antisemitic suddenly makes me so hateful of Christians? No but it makes me understand that at hard times christian communities could turn more radical and that usually means more antisemitic. Today Europe and USA aren't in such bad times but anything can happen when you look a little into the future. Maybe after a devastating war happens or Muslim immigration affecting Europe's Christian communities.
I can see that but the ones commenting my reply seem to me like Americans. The only guy around that isn't seems to be Tuss.
I never said anyone said it doesn't exist. But there were some doubts its a serious problem for Jewish people around the world.
As far as antisemitism goes, if you think it doesn't exist that much then enjoy you're American bubble.
Not even close. I have nothing against Christians and even have Christian Arab friends but the fact is that in Christianity its told that Jews killed Jesus and that makes almost all the radical christian groups antisemitic.
You say that as if you know what the chances are for another genocide attempt. I said why I think it can be attempted without an Israel existing, say why do you think it can't.
Paranoia is irrational fear. In geopolitics affairs its not irrational to fear an invasion from others and it would be foolish not to do so. I gave the Russian example and if you don't like it then I can give more.
If radical Christians got control of USA I doubt it will only be Some harm they would cause to the Jews if there would be no place they can be kicked to or anyone to stand up for them against the government. But USA is a bad example because it has large unchristian population, unlike Europe.
Nope. not every single person is antisemitic. But as a Jew that has family around the world I can tell you there is antisemitism everywhere. Even in good old America. But you wouldn't understand because you can't see antisemitics for who they are unless you're Jewish.
Except Russia, China and others. But that doesn't even matter because I didn't say anything close to Israel making war with America. I said that without Israel Jews in America would be a lot less safe then they are with Israel existing to back them up in hard times.
My will to survive is very much a justification for making my own country. Making my own country is not killing others, its buying lands and industrializing them. The war part is Palestinians who prefer war instead of sharing the land, war is not a must for Israel to exist if noone wants it.
Thx for posting this. If I may ask, are you SLA or have a SLA family?
Icecreamman,
A lot if not most of today's countries are based on bloodlines, unlike countries like USA or France. In Israel's case there's a reason, we didn't just come here because we like the weather, were here because we need a country for ourselves. If all those Palestinians who want to come will be allowed in it would not be a Jewish country anymore and will no longer be our country. Palestinians who want to come should go to Gaza or the West Bank and have their own country. Two countries for two people is the best solution. Plus, Palestinians don't exactly want a Jewish minority in their country.
Aside from that I think Jordan should be named Palestine and maybe annex some parts of the West bank and Gaza. Jordan is part of the historic Palestina and has an overwhelming Palestinian majority. Its not called Palestine today because the British Empire gave that land to some loyal small tribe, but now when the colonial days are over I think its about time the Bedouin minority gives the leadership to the majority and historic owners of the land.
Well I read only that post before replying so I misunderstood, nvm then.
I think he means what happened before Arabs came. Before the Arabs came it was Jewish, around 2000 years ago. Between the time Arabs expanded into Israel and the time of the Jewish kingdom there were mostly people brought in by various empires that ruled their subjects by forcing people into places unknown to them so they will feel less patriotic and therefore not rebel.
I don't get whats with the opposite opinions you have. Why couldn't we say "Because the land is ours now" just like you did?
And its true, you bit the Indians in wars so you get the loot. That's how history goes.
All true. I'd just like to add that in the first few years Israel was more neutral-pro soviet in the cold war. It was the communist block that sold Israel the weapons needed to win Israel's war of independance and it was the Soviets that wanted to support Zionism so someone could finally kick the British out of the middle east and cut off the connection between Britain's bases in N. Africa and Iraq/Jordan. Israel only joined USA in the cold war in the Korean war by sending aid to S. Korea.