I think if you’re running Rhythm then you almost have to be jamming a Melira. To have a persist creature, a sac outlet, and not being able to tutor for the combo at that point feels bad.
Speaking of image, it actually does a nice imitation of Scryb to let you combo off from two one drops by either copying scryb or an untapper already on the field. The way that clones change CMC could be very interesting for the chains. Body double can help you buy back an untapper you binned earlier in the chain, maybe in some way that’s the solution?
Lectrys, I won’t say that the price isn’t worth it but to find a way around it would be ideal! My list is hyper focused on getting Vannifar out and activating it ASAP trying to increase the consistency of it translating to a win seems more important. At what point does requiring two bodies to combo just seem like a better option than essentially doubling the number of untappers (for the record I think krasis is a pretty miserable card). At least for Temur, to win off one creature everything has to literally line up perfectly. I have to imagine just increasing the card quality and lowering the curve could lead to more wins than a more compact combo, but perhaps that’s pointless without adding white. Back to the drawing board, I suppose.
To me that makes it seem like comboing from a single creature is largely inconsistent - even with all those slots dedicated. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem like much of a workaround to that aside from an active Minamo.
I’ve tested 3x cerulean wisps but didn’t really get enough games in to get a good read on it. With a mana dork in play, it’s virtually a zero mana cantrip to dig for Vannifar. When Vannifar is in play you simply pod into Kitchen Finks, use whisps to untap, and then go off from there. Obviously you have to have it in hand and there will be a nonzero amount of games where you have one creature in play and zero out of the nine cards you can’t draw in hand AND won’t have wisps. I just feel like the ability to combo being based on what’s left in your deck is severely limiting and if built in ways to work around that can be implemented it could allow us to shave some of those expensive and semi useless combo pieces. I think wisps has potential.
I have run into it but have found ways to win regardless. I’ve found that the times you have it lined up but end up with conscripts or bellower in your hand have been really frustrating and essentially eliminate the line. I could be wrong with this but without some way to shuffle bodies back in (riverwise auger?) could be helpful in that way.
Also not crazy about white!
EDIT: so I’ve been testing incorporating conscripts/bellower back in because I admit I havnt tested them since adding Pact/Servant, and I had a quick question. Am I right to understand that to go off from a single one drop and Vannifar, you need to go one drop>ranger>krasis>hippo>conscripts>bellower for krasis>krasis into hippo>hippo into Kiki, targeting bellower, grab krasis? Because that’s literally every untapped in the deck being cycled through. Am I correct when I say that if ANY of these untappers (9 total counting bellower) end up in hand, exiled, or the graveyard, you cannot actually combo from just a single one drop?
Well boys, I’m packing it in for RUG delver. Temur Phoenix has pretty much stolen my heart, and it’s time to move on to a new 3/2 flyer. It was great debating with you guys. best of luck
Straight Temur for consistency, Blood Moon, and better at casting Kiki. I quickly fell in love with Gen Servant and I’m shocked nobody else has found success with it. It’s actually been pretty hard not to goldfish turn three if your opening hand is dork/Servant/Vannifar. Cut bellower and conscripts to help out the curve and finding that combining all the way up the chain of s single body wasn’t worth the deck space. Phantasmal Image and Minamo are there to help me navigate through combos when pieces are exiled or in the yard. Hall of the Bandit lord takes a spell slot for me and has been tremendous. Pact over Chord to make use of The haste enablers, plus chord kinda sucks when all your tutor targets are four or five mana.I think this list is the fastest I’ve seen.
With 7 virtual copies of Vannifar with Pact, Gen Servant is pretty much the ideal turn two while it also combines with Fauna Shaman for a sick line of:
Crack Servant, use one ‘haste mana’ to cast shaman, activate for Vannifar, use the second ‘haste mana’ for Vannifar and combo off at the cost of your Servant, any creature from hand, and 1GGGU to start chaining. Not bad as a tertiary way to combo same turn with Gen Servant.
I know my list is quite different so I’m hoping for some feedback from you guys
I play a version of UR breach that splashes for Time of Need. I tested explore but it conflicted with the decks desire to hold Remand on turn two but now I won’t have to choose. I’m really happy about Growth Spiral.
Battle rage pretty much requires become immense to steal any games in your list so I would probably cut that. I’m not really sure BI itself is even worth it but I havnt tried your list. The issue with pump spells is that if you can’t stick a creature they’re dead cards.
You could run a copy unsubstantiate to give you a little more interaction without having to run another counterspell, and a few copies of mandrills should probably be in here if you cut BI. 4 snag/3 pierce seems like a lot. Maybe a little more diversity here.
Alternatively running Traverse gives you another proactive cantrip and would allow you to run a single Bedlam Reveler to tutor up.
Through the Breach+Time of Need in a Temur Breach shell? You could run less copies of Emrakul then.
You could also splash blue in a Titanshift deck to get Scapeshift+Breach/Pact. Doesn’t exactly work together but you can increase your threat density quite a bit which the deck has no way to do.
I see your point and it is kinda dumb but that isn’t how sets have been designed and the card pool we have today is reflective of that. So, when we get batches of enemy pairing cards it absolutely is a more rare occurrence than allied pairing cards which make it into sets all the time. This makes it an utter disappointment when that rare opportunity for sweet new enemy pairing cards passes by with just another set focused on GB.
In the context of the plane it doesn’t matter so maybe my point wasn’t that great but at least when looking at non ravnica sets enemy pairing are supposed to naturally occur less often because those two colors contradict flavor-wise. It’s the same reason we see allied pairings so much more often than enemy. If you could point to the other enemy pairings and show me examples of the same sort of love GB gets then it wouldn’t a huge deal to me but to single out ONE color combination as essentially treat it as the sixth allied pair is dumb.
Lectrys, I won’t say that the price isn’t worth it but to find a way around it would be ideal! My list is hyper focused on getting Vannifar out and activating it ASAP trying to increase the consistency of it translating to a win seems more important. At what point does requiring two bodies to combo just seem like a better option than essentially doubling the number of untappers (for the record I think krasis is a pretty miserable card). At least for Temur, to win off one creature everything has to literally line up perfectly. I have to imagine just increasing the card quality and lowering the curve could lead to more wins than a more compact combo, but perhaps that’s pointless without adding white. Back to the drawing board, I suppose.
I’ve tested 3x cerulean wisps but didn’t really get enough games in to get a good read on it. With a mana dork in play, it’s virtually a zero mana cantrip to dig for Vannifar. When Vannifar is in play you simply pod into Kitchen Finks, use whisps to untap, and then go off from there. Obviously you have to have it in hand and there will be a nonzero amount of games where you have one creature in play and zero out of the nine cards you can’t draw in hand AND won’t have wisps. I just feel like the ability to combo being based on what’s left in your deck is severely limiting and if built in ways to work around that can be implemented it could allow us to shave some of those expensive and semi useless combo pieces. I think wisps has potential.
Also not crazy about white!
EDIT: so I’ve been testing incorporating conscripts/bellower back in because I admit I havnt tested them since adding Pact/Servant, and I had a quick question. Am I right to understand that to go off from a single one drop and Vannifar, you need to go one drop>ranger>krasis>hippo>conscripts>bellower for krasis>krasis into hippo>hippo into Kiki, targeting bellower, grab krasis? Because that’s literally every untapped in the deck being cycled through. Am I correct when I say that if ANY of these untappers (9 total counting bellower) end up in hand, exiled, or the graveyard, you cannot actually combo from just a single one drop?
I’ve been playing Vannifar for a few weeks and here’s where I’m at:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Generator Servant
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Spellskite
2 Deceiver Exarch
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Breaching Hippocamp
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Prime Speaker Vannifar
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Summoner's Pact
2 Eldritch Evolution
Lands:22
2 Breeding Pool
1 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dire Fleet Daredevil
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
2 Flame Slash
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
Straight Temur for consistency, Blood Moon, and better at casting Kiki. I quickly fell in love with Gen Servant and I’m shocked nobody else has found success with it. It’s actually been pretty hard not to goldfish turn three if your opening hand is dork/Servant/Vannifar. Cut bellower and conscripts to help out the curve and finding that combining all the way up the chain of s single body wasn’t worth the deck space. Phantasmal Image and Minamo are there to help me navigate through combos when pieces are exiled or in the yard. Hall of the Bandit lord takes a spell slot for me and has been tremendous. Pact over Chord to make use of The haste enablers, plus chord kinda sucks when all your tutor targets are four or five mana.I think this list is the fastest I’ve seen.
With 7 virtual copies of Vannifar with Pact, Gen Servant is pretty much the ideal turn two while it also combines with Fauna Shaman for a sick line of:
Crack Servant, use one ‘haste mana’ to cast shaman, activate for Vannifar, use the second ‘haste mana’ for Vannifar and combo off at the cost of your Servant, any creature from hand, and 1GGGU to start chaining. Not bad as a tertiary way to combo same turn with Gen Servant.
I know my list is quite different so I’m hoping for some feedback from you guys
You could run a copy unsubstantiate to give you a little more interaction without having to run another counterspell, and a few copies of mandrills should probably be in here if you cut BI. 4 snag/3 pierce seems like a lot. Maybe a little more diversity here.
Alternatively running Traverse gives you another proactive cantrip and would allow you to run a single Bedlam Reveler to tutor up.
You could also splash blue in a Titanshift deck to get Scapeshift+Breach/Pact. Doesn’t exactly work together but you can increase your threat density quite a bit which the deck has no way to do.
I see your point and it is kinda dumb but that isn’t how sets have been designed and the card pool we have today is reflective of that. So, when we get batches of enemy pairing cards it absolutely is a more rare occurrence than allied pairing cards which make it into sets all the time. This makes it an utter disappointment when that rare opportunity for sweet new enemy pairing cards passes by with just another set focused on GB.
In the context of the plane it doesn’t matter so maybe my point wasn’t that great but at least when looking at non ravnica sets enemy pairing are supposed to naturally occur less often because those two colors contradict flavor-wise. It’s the same reason we see allied pairings so much more often than enemy. If you could point to the other enemy pairings and show me examples of the same sort of love GB gets then it wouldn’t a huge deal to me but to single out ONE color combination as essentially treat it as the sixth allied pair is dumb.