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Treasure Cruisin' Gifts Storm
 
The Role of Ecosystems in Fantasy Worldbuilding
 
Life's Legacy: Delving into Delver
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    I hate etched champion. During Eldrazi winter when I ran two ceremonious rejections in the board my affinity matchup was so good just due to the crossover. Rejection really is great there.

    I usually go fairly minimal on threats against affinity and bring in every piece of removal in the 75. At three mana it can Be slow but in conjunction with all your other interaction you buy yourself enough time to play it and it kills your real target (overseer, skirge, master of etherium) while cleaning up any ornithopters/memnites you otherwise wouldn't waste removal on but are annoying nonetheless.

    @mike

    I wasn't trying to understate CO's effectiveness once it's in play. So many hands (particularly mulligans) start with just lands cantrips and interaction and you have to dig for threats. The enchantment just limits your ability to translate those hands into somewhat aggressive starts while in itself can at times be a poor topdeck. It does have 'home run' potential though in that you can run away with the game whichever is a lot for a one drop. I think using that card will just come down to personal preference, as it can be a little boom or bust.

    Also, I've been really happy with Roast in the main. It's been dead a few times but not a huge deal.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    The double red cost is tough, but I'll at least be testing it again. Against spreading seas it may not be doable.

    Why not bring in Anger against affinity though? I always liked sweepers there personally.

    After seeing several different archetypes incorporate Curious Obsession lately it's obvious it's powerful say the least. My issue with it here is that it's best on a one drop and we usually only have 4. That and if your opponent has immediate answers for your first few threats it's either dead in hand or has its target removed. If you were to build more around it with max shoal, and more one drops it could be the basis of a really good tempo strategy. I don't think our current shell supports more than one of these.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    You know I was huge on curator, but don't know how I could justify an extra cantrip at this point when the deck suddenly crammed two 4 mana walkers. I tried a copy of Jace in the main but it led to some awkward moments so I think for us it's best as a sideboard piece. To include both jaces in my board I took a page out of mikefon's book and moved a roast to the maindeck to hopefully get more out of my sideboard.

    I'm considering swapping firespout for anger of the gods for the same reason. I don't want to ruin my sideboard by clogging it with grave hate but I don't want to be without a hard answer to dredge. Firespout is the superior card here, but if it lets me drop Bojuka bog and get more out of my board it may be worth it. Can anyone sell me on anger?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    A Starcity writer called it out as a potential spec target today, so now it's already starting to move. I'm not sure what shell wants to max out on both Jace and a free counter but there's definitely potential for a powerful tempo deck. Also, pitch an extra Jace to counter a Jace. Sounds fun.

    Unrelated, but if we ever find ourselves in the potential abyss of a Modern riddled with routine Jace on Jace exchanges, a Treetop Village could be a great sideboard card. 3 damage is the sweet spot to hit Jace and two mana to activate it manageable even for this deck.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    I don't think the banlist update has happened on the MTGO client as of now so have yet to play with Jace. Will try to squeeze in a few leaves when it happens.

    @mnesci
    Also worth noting your simic charm would have protected collar from k command. Looks like you dominated lol.

    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    I wouldn't say Melody was 'bad' but it just compared to EE so poorly in terms of the number of matchups in which you actually want it that it's hard to justify its inclusion over a second EE if that's the sort of removal you are looking for. EE is a bomb against affinity, lantern, bogles etc while being a serviceable sweeper in other creature matchups. Melody comes in against deaths shadow, other tarmogoyf decks, and nacatls and not that many other places, and if you look all of those matchups are ground EE also already covers. This format is so hard to cover with a sideboard, which makes melody narrow, even if powerful.

    I actually havnt found hollow one to be that poor, like all the street wraith decks. Outside of their nut draws, tarmogoyf instantly outclasses all their threats. I commonly trade mandrills early with hollow ones. I run vapor snag to somewhat eliminate early hollow one plays and the cheap counters can stop their looting/goblin lore which leaves them durdling early. Out of the board roast and the artifact hate is a huge help and they are usually the unprepared for basilisk collar.

    The Phoenix is a little annoying though so I try to remove their threat precombat; if a lose this matchups is generally due to big game hunter. So good.



    Little update to those interested-


    While I like curator a lot, it was the obvious luxury slot that would Ben perfect to fit in a Jace. I'm also testing a second copy over bedlam reveler in the board and I'm feelings really hopeful about these changes. Jace is...awesome. Having a reliable source of card advantage could be exactly what the ddck needs.

    @mnesci

    Against UW I cut almost all my burn, load up on threats/moon/counters
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 10/02/18)
    Jace was actually about the same price before the ban so How is it fleecing? Those who held them have their investment back. Those that sold high simply have to buy back in, no value lost. Those who never had them? Well it's a really good card with a really high demand so, just like any other magic card, be prepared to pay or crack packs.

    In hindsight all this overreaction is going to be funny, as Jace proves itself to be relatively fair. Tron, Bogles, Burn, Lantern, Storm, Ad Nauseum, Titanshift, and Affinity frankly aren't even a little scared of Jace, and would actually hope to see their opponents tap out on turn for nothing but brainstorm. How can a card that (more or less) blanks against over half the format be dangerous for the game?

    Cmon now. That's silly.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    I was so nervous it was going to be stoneforge. That card would wreck us. (But that's for another thread)

    As already stated, Temur unbannings! At least there's potential for us this time around, even if it in reality only helps other decks.

    I don't think we will be implementing BBE in any fashion. While the guaranteed 2-for-1 makes it a good card against any deck trying to beat you with value, the decks we would bring it in against don't care much about a 3/2 at all. Jund abzan grixis and Mardu have no trouble simply outclassing BBE on the ground and nullifying it's impact as that second spell gained from casting it. If they are ever forced to use removal on it that's great but for four mana I think this deck in particular wants something with a higher rate of success closing out games, by winning on its own. I could see it paired with blue to some degree of success in modern but not with delver I don't think. It is great against Jace though.

    Jace is a little complicated and I'm frankly not very sure at all. He will need testing. I know for certain 2 would be the most you could fit in the 75, and 1 in the MB would probably be the limit as well. Jace is a ridiculously powerful permanent but many of moderns predators can ignore him almost completely. Tron, Affinity, Titanshift, Burn, Ad nauseum, etc. would love to see us tap out on turn four for Jace. He would be greatly effective against our bad matchups in midrange/control but may be too narrow (in terms of what decks it is 'safe' against) for the main deck.

    That being said...he doesn't flip delver, isn't a threat, can't be tutored for, and isn't necessarily effective in a majority of modern matchups. The bar for entry into this deck for a card that fits those specs is ridiculously high, and Jace must do a ton of work to correct bad matchups in my mind to justify its inclusion. Definitely possible though, it is THE Jace.


    One thing I wanted to point out about the Jace unbanning, stubborn denial just got a huge boost in relevance. People are going to be licking their lips when they hit four lands and see us with a mere, single island untapped...

    That, and you'd be crazy not to be packing a Savage Knuckleblade to get out from under a Jace from now on.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    I think this is a very reasonable line of thought. If you don't have the hate in your opening hand it often won't be enough, and this deck can't really afford to jam 3-4 pieces like some decks do. (If only we had nihil spellbomb..)

    Dredge isn't going to be good unless you really dedicate a lot of slots so shoring up other matchups could be worthwhile.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    @mnesci
    I like that seas can complement blood moon by turning off opponents basics. During eldrazi winter most of us were running 3 moon 2 seas and it worked great. Hitti manlands is really good too. Three blood moon can be awkward sometimes when your opponents draws a waste/basics. Even when moon is a bomb drawing multiplex can lose you games. I could see a 2/1 split but if you havnt tried tutoring up a Magus of the moon, it's awesome. Can't bring it in against bolt but so often I can bring it in as my only moon affect and have great access to it. Humans is a great example where it's much better than moon. Naturally helps against multi moon draws as against decks like jeskai you only bring in two. Against decks like eldrazi, you essentially have 6 blood moons. Prettt sweet.

    There's a reason clique has seen so much play in eternal formats. It's not a big player in modern for a number of reasons but what is essentially a pre-flipped delver with flash for three mana it absolutely fits into our aggressive gameplan while extending your game against any deck trying to go over the top of you. Doubles down as great against removal heavy decks. (Steal a push/demands a push). I personally wish I could fit it in.

    There's a bigger showing of death and taxes/coco/soul sisters and things like that online so perhaps I see more that others. Boros burn too. Revelry is great elsewhere so it's not there necessarily because RIP is everywhere.

    I will add that deprive is naturally a better sideboard card for us than a MB inclusion as I am currently doing, because then you only have to fetch for it when you bring it in. Also, if you board it in that means they have 'must-counter' spells so the land bounce should generally be even more likely to be negligible. I only moved it to the main recently in an attempt to get more out of my sideboard.

    There's loaming shaman or ooze. There's also that dinosaur. 3/2 for 2G, exiles stuff in the yard to gain life or a pump, but I don't know if those are fast enough.

    @mike

    Whoops, I forgot what flashfreeze did halfway through that post it seems...lol

    I'm interested in your tracker results

    I like the idea of extraction. Beats goryo. Against dredge pulling amalgam seems like it would often be enough. Other than that conflagrate can beat you but their aggro plan would be diminished. Against living end if you counter the first living end you just extract it and it leaves them dead in the water. Plus snapcaster lets you do it twice for only two mana total. That's cool.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    Just try to remember with curator it's a cantrip first and a threat second. I aggressively cycle it away where a 4/4 flyer isn't likely to be better than interaction. Being able to use it on turn one to help dig for lands/interaction is the best feature a creature can have in a 17 land deck. Doubling down as a threat against our worst matchups is gravy.

    I like seas, bur with three slots already dedicated to blood moon, four total is a lot and limits your interaction suite quite a bit. I do like that it is good against both midrange/control AND the big mana decks. Have you tried clique here? In conjunction with counters it really enhances a permission suite IMO, and tutoring for it on a critical turn is great.

    It stands out to me that you only have one Revelry and an EE to deal with RIP. I'm too scared to run without two Revelry myself. The cards just really good against us.

    I also really like forked bolt here and have argued for it much in the past but with traverse I think I would always give the nod to tarfire. Unless forked bolt was in the board.

    The counterspell debate is one I've had over this deck quite a bit and it's a tough call. The options are effective but narrow. I see flashfreeze has merits against burn but unless it hits deflecting palm it's generally going to work about 4 life. That's good but not gamebreaking. It's great against shift except...it misses through the breach. Falls flat against tron any all combo. I'm not sure where this card shines in the format honestly. Stroke is good against tron, shift, ad nauseum, reasonable against storm for gifts/pif, Ok against jeskai for nahiri and cryptic but not great, effective against eldrazi, and other places but some matchups where you really want an extra counter it does nothing. Like lantern control for example. Rejection is probably the most powerful overall but the most narrow. A bomb against tron, lantern, eldrazi, and affinity(countering champion is amazing), hits lotus bloom from ad nauseum...ect. But completely misses archetypes all together.

    In a deck where you already have moon clogging up the board space, most of us are already compromising on graveyard hate to do so. That makes every sideboard slot incredibly valuable, meaning narrow counters arnt going to be as big of a contributor as one you can bring in to a diverse array of matchups. This is why Deprive has been my go to complement to mana leak in this deck. I would say at least 80% of the time it is functionally counterspell. We always miss land drops so replaying a land the next turn is usually not even a draw back. I often use it on my turn to generate a mana (net loss of one mana for counterspell? Wow) when opponents try to disrupt my combat step with removal. Sure, the land bounce can hurt occasionally, but nothing makes a counterspell worse than being dead in hand or not even worth bringing in to matchups where you need another counter desperately. Deprive never misses and comes in whenever I need more permission. I love it.

    @mike

    I see you dropped a mandrills. What led to that?

    Also, how has extraction been for you?

    I'm glad I see so many of us on Knuckeblade now. So many wouldn't give him a chance!
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    When I first included collar I always brought it in against shadow but less often after being hit by command a few too many times. If they weren't so heavy on discard the counters would be better and it would be a safer play but I really don't like the two mana counters here, at least leak. It is a really good trump to their hard to deal with threats but if the game goes long they usually answer it. Perfectly reasonable to bring in though, a couple of stubborn denials can easily carry it to victory.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    Agreed with mike, steel overseer needs to die on sight and any early ravaged won't be able to survive a roast even with modular shenanigans. Master of etherium also often falls within range, at least for a while. Every once in a while I take out a key signal pest or something. What's really essential is being able to use the roast in order to save a bolt/tarfire in hand to protect against big cranial/ravaged swings or manlands.

    Bog in itself is pretty weak. Getting what is essentially colorless mana from it after is nice and it has synergy with deprive but it can't be the only interaction you have against grace decks. For living end you're most likely going to have to counter 1 living end and then on your following turn when you play bog, they 99% of the time living end again in response which you obviously must also counter. Generally that leaves them pretty much out of gas or at least gives you a window to win. I think my delerium access is pretty good. I lose to end because I don't have a second counter or don't find traverse/bog but not really because traverse is dead. Curator is cute here but isn't a huge game changer, although only jungle weaver/macabre blocks it so if they have to cast end on their turn you could get a chance to bash for four.

    Yeah you're right about collar and grapeshot. Only if they don't have a baral and/or PIf would the storm be low enough to matter. I will say that they seem to always go for the empty the warrens plan with me, hoping to spit out a bunch of tokens early when I'm establishing a board. I don't always bring in collar though, I previously only ran one firespout and brought collar in as a third way to fight empty the warrens but no longer.

    At least online hollow one is everywhere so delver creatures are seeing more play than ever and they help fill out the removal suite in a ton of other matchups so while its not a perfect card its the card we need IMO.

    Collar may be less valuable now because there is less eldrazi but it doubles down as a powerful anti burn piece, let's you race/wall a fat Slippery Bogle, race etched champion, lets your snapcaster trade with a 7/7 champion of the parish, and really gives you a counter to so many aggressive draws in the format that would usually crush a tempo deck like this. Not many other cards can save you from a multiple hollow one+angler+Phoenix start, but collar can.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    happy to.

    Traverse really is awesome. Makes so many one land hands keepers that would otherwise be questionable and has so much late game power.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Monkey Grow (RUG/Temur Delver)
    No problem! If I skip any you would want to know about just say so.

    I've been trying some sideboard tweaks as I've been seeing more of the meta. The MD right now is: -1 remand +1 deprive.
    Sideboard is: -1 deprive -1 vendilion clique +1 roast +1 bedlam reveler. Hurts the big mana matchups and combo but way too many fair decks are being played right now and roast is now a premium sideboard piece IMO.



    Burn:

    -4 Delver
    -2 snag
    -1 curator

    +1 basilisk collar
    +1 feed the clan
    +2 roast
    +2 firespout
    +1 EE

    Affinity:

    +2 revelry
    +1 grudge
    +2 firespout
    +2 roast
    +1 basilisk collar
    +1 EE

    -1 curator
    -1 savage knuckleblade
    -1 vapor snag
    -1 serum visions
    -1 deprive
    -2 mana leak
    -1 stubborn denial
    -1 mishra's bauble

    Living End:

    +1 bog
    +1 basilisk collar
    +2 roast

    -2 spell snare (lol...)
    -2 tarfire

    Storm:

    -2 snag
    -1 curator
    -1 knuckleblade

    +2 firespout
    +1 EE
    +1 bog

    (Collar is also an option here over a cantrip as empty the warrens can't beat you and it's plausible to put yourself out of grapeshot range)

    Dredge:

    +1 bog
    +2 firespout
    +1 basilisk collar
    +1 feed the clan

    -2 mana leak
    -1 deprive
    -1 curator
    -1 savage knuckleblade

    Bogles:

    +2 destructive revelry
    +1 EE
    +2 blood moon
    +1 magus of the moon
    +2 firespout

    -2 vapor snag
    -2 tarfire
    -1 curator
    -1 savage knuckleblade
    -2 lightning bolt

    Jund:

    +1 Bedlam Reveler
    +2 blood moon
    +2 roast
    +1 EE

    -2 tarfire
    -3 stubborn denial
    -1 deprive

    Abzan:

    +2 blood moon
    +1 magus of the moon
    +1 EE
    +2 roast
    +1 basilisk collar (they don't have K command so it races souls/rhino)
    +1 reveler


    -2 tarfire
    -1 deprive
    -3 stubborn denial
    -2 mana leak
    -1 lightning bolt

    Grixis/jund/four/five color shadow:

    +2 roast
    +1 EE
    +2 blood moon
    +1 reveler

    -1 deprive
    -2 mana leak
    -2 tarfire
    -1 thought scour

    These decks are hard to board against because the burn is so good even tarfire sometimes gets the nod which makes it hard to include other interaction. Their best threats costs one so mana leak isn't great here. Also a ton of variance between lists make this plan very loose and deck list specific.

    Mardu:

    +2 firespout
    +1 EE
    +2 roast
    +1 basilisk collar
    +1 bedlam reveler

    -2 vapor snag
    -1 deprive
    -2 mana leak
    -2 tarfire

    Tron:

    +2 blood moon
    +1 magus
    +2 revelery
    +1 grudge

    -1 curator
    -1 knuckleblade
    -2 tarfire
    -2 spell snare

    Eldrazi tron:

    +2 roast
    +2 moon
    +1 magus
    +1 collar
    +2 revelry
    +1 grudge

    -3 stubborn denial
    -2 spell snare
    -2 tarfire

    Humans/merfolk:

    +2 revelery
    +2 spout
    +1 EE
    +2 roast
    +1 collar
    +1 magus

    -3 denial
    -2 leak
    -1 deprive
    -1 curator
    -1 savage knuckleblade
    -1 vapor snag

    uwr/uw/grixis

    +2 blood moon
    +1 reveler

    Grixis gets both roasts, jeskai and WR get both destructive revelry so 5 total slots out/in

    -2 tarfire
    -3 bolt

    If UW has queller or Geist this changes a bit.

    KKC/ad nauseum/lantern:

    -2 snag
    -2 tarfire
    -1 curator

    +2 revelry
    +1 grudge
    +1 magus
    +1/2 blood moon

    Lantern/nauseum gets EE and drops 1 or 2 spell snare.

    BR hollow one:

    +2 roast
    +1 bog
    +2 revelry
    +1 grudge
    +1 collar

    -1 deprive
    -2 mana leak
    -1 curator
    -2 stubborn denial
    -1 savage knuckleblade

    Titanshift:

    +2 moon
    +1 grudge
    +2 revelry
    +2 roast (courser/baloth)

    -2 tarfire
    -1 curator
    -1 knuckleblade
    -3 bolt

    CoCo:

    -1 deprive
    -1 curator
    -1 knuckleblade
    -2 stubborn denial
    -1 vapor snag

    +2 roast
    +2 firespout
    +1 EE
    +1 destructive revelry (RIP and Choke)

    Death & taxes:
    +2 roast
    +2 spout
    +1 EE
    +2 revelry
    +1 grudge
    +1 collar
    +1 magus

    -3 stubborn denial
    -1 deprive
    -2 snag
    -2 mana leak
    -1 knuckleblade
    -1 spell snare

    I don't have this written down anywhere so I don't always follow this exact plan and oftentimes people have unique lists that call for unique setups. Sometimes I'll leave in an extra counter, or leave in knuckleblade, or bring in feed the clan against aggro, or take out a cantrips to include more interaction- all depending on individual opponents lists- but this is a good place to start for each matchup. I did it quick so sorry for any errors.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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