Desolation Angel has always been a personal favorite, though I have not had a good deck for it for a while now.
A few years ago, I cast it with kicker three times in a single game.
I have also greatly enjoyed Possessed Portal. That card is just fun for the whole table.
Common sense would suggest that you can't "return" a thing to a zone that it's already in, so you cannot pay that cost.
The closest analog we have is 400.8. If an object in the exile zone is exiled, it doesn't change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
This suggests that a hypothetical cost of "Exile an exiled card" could in fact be paid.
Now with the Ninja, there are a few notable differences. Obviously it is not exiled, and as the Gatherer rulings do nothing to suggest it becomes a new game object (doesn't become untapped or removed from combat, affected by 'summoning sickness' if it loses Haste, or have attached objects 'fall off'), we can conclude that it remains the same object on the battlefield. Becoming a new object in the hand is a null point, being a hidden zone, even if that is the case.
The ambiguity comes from the ruling not stating that the card cannot be returned to the hand, but that doing so does nothing.
Neither of those cards function as "another" Ninjitsu enabler.
If you are truly concerned about those effects, you have access to many far superior options of dealing with them, many of which are probably already included in the deck by default.
Lord Windgrace is a considerable disappointment. He is still, unfortunately, the best option for a Jund Lands (destruction) deck I have been planning, and will likely end up being used.
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow has some design elements that irritate me, but is a card I like quite a bit, and will finally allow me to effectively play the archetype I most enjoy - aggro-control.
Commander Ninjitsu? Really?
What could possibly have been so hard about updating Ninjitsu in the CR to function from "the hand or the command zone", and just giving her that. That would even have allowed the two other such Lengendary creatures to finally be viable choices as well, with a nearly nonexistent cost of doing so.
Any particular reason no one has Cabal Coffers/Stronghold and Urborg in their lists?
Because more often than not, Cabal Coffers is a bad card outside of mono-black. That is most certainly the case here, where we care about speed. Coffers is quite a bit worse than tapped lands. Cabal Stronghold is always a bad card.
Cruel Tutor, what about this? It's basically a 3-Mana Sorc-speed Vampiric Tutor, but it may be a better option that Demonic, seeing as how you can setup for Yuriko/Temporal Mastery.
Do not play Cruel Tutor. It takes deliberately bad building for it to not be the worst card in the deck.
The only place you could plausibly argue it is better than Demonic Tutor is in Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, where top of library cheats the mana cost. And you would still be wrong.
If you try to move Masterful Ninja from the battlefield to your hand or vice versa, and it’s in both zones, it will just stay in both zones. For example, if Masterful Ninja is in both zones, casting Unsummon targeting it won’t do anything.
Is returning Masterful Ninja to your hand an action that does nothing (compare to taking damage while controlling Platinum Emperion.
Or is returning Masterful Ninja to your hand an impossible action (compare to paying life while controlling Platinum Emperion).
I suspect it is an impossible action, but do not find the Gatherer ruling sufficiently clear on the matter, and we have no precedent I am aware of to compare to.
This question can be summed up as "Can I use Masterful Ninja to pay Ninjitsu costs?"
Did you consider Spiketail Hatchling? 2cmc, but it hits all kinds of spells. I don't think I've ever actually seen any Force Spike creatures played in EDH, but the psychological chilling effect could be very effective.
Briefly. Not good enough.
The only reason I still have Cursecatcher & Siren Stormtamer listed is that they can attack on turn 2. With seven such cards, Yuriko will hit on turn 2 ~45% of the games.
Shadowmage Infiltrator is a trap I think. 3cmc is too much to ask for a ninjutsu target unless it does something particularly strong (Spellseeker) and we want Finkel hitting players, but getting ninjutsued out. Likewise, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni is just too pricy and her on hit doesn't synergize with our game plan that well. 6cmc is nice for draining people but then you have a dead card in your hand.
3 mana is a lot to pay for a Ninjitsu enabler. That is why I currently list only 2; each of which is a strong card on its own. I do admit that Shadowmage Infiltrator is probably one of the weaker cards, it is still a strong effect that can be a Ninjitsu enabler if needed, but is not included for that reason alone.
I do still need to make cuts, so maybe it will get pulled anyway.
I want eight 'native' Ninja's in the deck. Ink-Eyes is actually a place holder for Masterful Ninja, which would be swapped out for either Ink-Eyes or Silent-Blade Oni if players in any particular group complains - most people in my area are fine with Un-set cards so long as they do not require 'un rules' to work, even if no one has actually used any yet (Masterful Ninja is admittedly borderline, but there is reason to believe the Comprehensive Rules could support a card being in multiple zones simultaneously, unlike tracking spoken words or throwing cards).
Ultimately I decided the single color and reduced cost of Ink-Eyes made it a better option than Silent-Blade, but I may revisit that decision after play testing.
(On the subject of Masterful Ninja, that is probably the single strongest enabler for Yuriko available, despite not having evasion, provided your group allows it). Edit: After thinking about it more, Masterful Ninja is either a far stronger enabler than I had thought, or doesn't enable her at all (still worth playing though).
This depends on if moving the Ninja to your hand effectively does nothing (stay a on the battlefield attacking), or if it is an impossible action (cannot be used to pay Ninjitsu costs). I suspect the latter, but we have no clear ruling, and no precedent to compare to.
I will have to inquire about that later.
I think 36 lands is excessive. We have a low curve, run lots of cantrips, and can run the good mana rocks.
I see that you cut Trinket Mage but kept a sweet package for him. So many juicy targets. That was actually where my head was at before I stated seriously looking at your list.
High initial land count was with the expectation of the deck playing similarly to control builds, coupled with high CMC threats.
I am going to reduce the land count to 34 though, and likely add Grim Monolith & Mana Vault in their place to help with the high CMC finishers. Though with the deck still over by ~10 cards, even that is up for debate. I have reduced the number of high CMC finishers, so they are less necessary than initially expected.
Trinket Mage has six targets, all good but none valuable enough to devote a CMC 3 card to finding. This may go down after final cuts. Spellseeker has fourteen targets, generally higher quality than Trinket Mage but still not spectacular (basically draw effects and other tutors).
I strongly considered both cards, but without evasion allowing them to be easily reused, they are just not worth the slots.
My preliminary deck list can be found here.
The core strategy is very much agro-control. I expect it to play similarly to a slower, more control oriented Edric deck.
I am currently over by 16 cards.
The deck is weighted far more heavily towards blue than I would like, so blue cards will likely be cut first.
The deck runs more creatures than I think is necessary, so creatures will likely be cut first. Starting with the 2 worst ninja's, I think.
The mana base and individual card choices are likely to be adjusted.
In particular, what is the opinion of Damnation vs. Decree of Pain?
Edit: A few specific cards worth mentioning.
Only cyberium has mentioned Gush, with no discussion on it as far as I can see.
Also, no one thought of Blinkmoth Nexus & Inkmoth Nexus?
They should have given her Ninjitsu, and errata'd the ability to work from the Command Zone (opening up both Higure & Ink Eyes as Commanders.
With the bonus of not sounding snip.
I really hope there are some new, solid Ninja's in the set to work with her. The supply as it stands now is very limited.
Disappointing her ability only works with Ninjas, but I do like her quite a bit.
Anyone who is still 'meh' after the spoilers today is just a stick in the mud. This set it bonkers good!
Saheeli, Estrid, Vedalkin Humiliator, & Treasure Napper are the only new cards spoiled thus far worth playing. None of which I will use.
Of the reprints I have seen, none are worthwhile.
I had originally planned to purchase all four. Based off of what we have seen so far, I expect to cancel my orders.
Edit: Okay, I really like Yuriko. Just sad her trigger is restricted to ninjas
Still, probably better to buy a couple singles than the sealed product from what I have seen.
Also, "Commander Ninjitsu" is <snip>; they should have just errata'd Ninjitsu to work from the Command Zone.
Except that with Stax he might as well send emails to his friends insulting them and their ancestry and save the money since stax is likely to produce the same reaction.
While the Gravetide may very well be the best UBG Stax Commander, Stax is not the best Gravetide build. Also consider that there are far superior choices for Stax in other color combinations.
Something to keep in mind for Stax is that, while you probably should be utilizing cards like Smokestack, most of the Stax strategy revolves around Resistance & Orb effects to strain resources. The Gravetide has no particular synergy with those, or their complementary support.
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Possessed Portal, attack for 2
Turn 3: Attack for 2
Turn 4: Attack for 2
...
Turn 61: Attack for 2, eliminating third opponent.
As someone with extensive experience playing with said cards, no, it's not.
Library of Alexandria very much needs to remain banned.
A few years ago, I cast it with kicker three times in a single game.
I have also greatly enjoyed Possessed Portal. That card is just fun for the whole table.
The closest analog we have is
400.8. If an object in the exile zone is exiled, it doesn't change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled.
This suggests that a hypothetical cost of "Exile an exiled card" could in fact be paid.
Now with the Ninja, there are a few notable differences. Obviously it is not exiled, and as the Gatherer rulings do nothing to suggest it becomes a new game object (doesn't become untapped or removed from combat, affected by 'summoning sickness' if it loses Haste, or have attached objects 'fall off'), we can conclude that it remains the same object on the battlefield. Becoming a new object in the hand is a null point, being a hidden zone, even if that is the case.
The ambiguity comes from the ruling not stating that the card cannot be returned to the hand, but that doing so does nothing.
If you are truly concerned about those effects, you have access to many far superior options of dealing with them, many of which are probably already included in the deck by default.
Those faeries are bad.
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow has some design elements that irritate me, but is a card I like quite a bit, and will finally allow me to effectively play the archetype I most enjoy - aggro-control.
Commander Ninjitsu? Really?
What could possibly have been so hard about updating Ninjitsu in the CR to function from "the hand or the command zone", and just giving her that. That would even have allowed the two other such Lengendary creatures to finally be viable choices as well, with a nearly nonexistent cost of doing so.
Because more often than not, Cabal Coffers is a bad card outside of mono-black. That is most certainly the case here, where we care about speed. Coffers is quite a bit worse than tapped lands.
Cabal Stronghold is always a bad card.
Do not play Cruel Tutor. It takes deliberately bad building for it to not be the worst card in the deck.
The only place you could plausibly argue it is better than Demonic Tutor is in Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, where top of library cheats the mana cost. And you would still be wrong.
Phyrexian Tower and Scroll Rack are both listed in the original post of the thread.
If you try to move Masterful Ninja from the battlefield to your hand or vice versa, and it’s in both zones, it will just stay in both zones. For example, if Masterful Ninja is in both zones, casting Unsummon targeting it won’t do anything.
Is returning Masterful Ninja to your hand an action that does nothing (compare to taking damage while controlling Platinum Emperion.
Or is returning Masterful Ninja to your hand an impossible action (compare to paying life while controlling Platinum Emperion).
I suspect it is an impossible action, but do not find the Gatherer ruling sufficiently clear on the matter, and we have no precedent I am aware of to compare to.
This question can be summed up as "Can I use Masterful Ninja to pay Ninjitsu costs?"
Briefly. Not good enough.
The only reason I still have Cursecatcher & Siren Stormtamer listed is that they can attack on turn 2. With seven such cards, Yuriko will hit on turn 2 ~45% of the games.
3 mana is a lot to pay for a Ninjitsu enabler. That is why I currently list only 2; each of which is a strong card on its own. I do admit that Shadowmage Infiltrator is probably one of the weaker cards, it is still a strong effect that can be a Ninjitsu enabler if needed, but is not included for that reason alone.
I do still need to make cuts, so maybe it will get pulled anyway.
I want eight 'native' Ninja's in the deck. Ink-Eyes is actually a place holder for Masterful Ninja, which would be swapped out for either Ink-Eyes or Silent-Blade Oni if players in any particular group complains - most people in my area are fine with Un-set cards so long as they do not require 'un rules' to work, even if no one has actually used any yet (Masterful Ninja is admittedly borderline, but there is reason to believe the Comprehensive Rules could support a card being in multiple zones simultaneously, unlike tracking spoken words or throwing cards).
Ultimately I decided the single color and reduced cost of Ink-Eyes made it a better option than Silent-Blade, but I may revisit that decision after play testing.
(On the subject of Masterful Ninja, that is probably the single strongest enabler for Yuriko available, despite not having evasion, provided your group allows it).
Edit: After thinking about it more, Masterful Ninja is either a far stronger enabler than I had thought, or doesn't enable her at all (still worth playing though).
This depends on if moving the Ninja to your hand effectively does nothing (stay a on the battlefield attacking), or if it is an impossible action (cannot be used to pay Ninjitsu costs). I suspect the latter, but we have no clear ruling, and no precedent to compare to.
I will have to inquire about that later.
High initial land count was with the expectation of the deck playing similarly to control builds, coupled with high CMC threats.
I am going to reduce the land count to 34 though, and likely add Grim Monolith & Mana Vault in their place to help with the high CMC finishers. Though with the deck still over by ~10 cards, even that is up for debate. I have reduced the number of high CMC finishers, so they are less necessary than initially expected.
Trinket Mage has six targets, all good but none valuable enough to devote a CMC 3 card to finding. This may go down after final cuts.
Spellseeker has fourteen targets, generally higher quality than Trinket Mage but still not spectacular (basically draw effects and other tutors).
I strongly considered both cards, but without evasion allowing them to be easily reused, they are just not worth the slots.
The core strategy is very much agro-control. I expect it to play similarly to a slower, more control oriented Edric deck.
I am currently over by 16 cards.
The deck is weighted far more heavily towards blue than I would like, so blue cards will likely be cut first.
The deck runs more creatures than I think is necessary, so creatures will likely be cut first. Starting with the 2 worst ninja's, I think.
The mana base and individual card choices are likely to be adjusted.
In particular, what is the opinion of Damnation vs. Decree of Pain?
Edit: A few specific cards worth mentioning.
Only cyberium has mentioned Gush, with no discussion on it as far as I can see.
Also, no one thought of Blinkmoth Nexus & Inkmoth Nexus?
Seriously?
They should have given her Ninjitsu, and errata'd the ability to work from the Command Zone (opening up both Higure & Ink Eyes as Commanders.
With the bonus of not sounding snip.
I really hope there are some new, solid Ninja's in the set to work with her. The supply as it stands now is very limited.
Disappointing her ability only works with Ninjas, but I do like her quite a bit.
Saheeli, Estrid, Vedalkin Humiliator, & Treasure Napper are the only new cards spoiled thus far worth playing. None of which I will use.
Of the reprints I have seen, none are worthwhile.
I had originally planned to purchase all four. Based off of what we have seen so far, I expect to cancel my orders.
Edit: Okay, I really like Yuriko. Just sad her trigger is restricted to ninjas
Still, probably better to buy a couple singles than the sealed product from what I have seen.
Also, "Commander Ninjitsu" is <snip>; they should have just errata'd Ninjitsu to work from the Command Zone.
I don't understand...
I see no issue with casting Possessed Portal on turn 3.
Something to keep in mind for Stax is that, while you probably should be utilizing cards like Smokestack, most of the Stax strategy revolves around Resistance & Orb effects to strain resources. The Gravetide has no particular synergy with those, or their complementary support.