4 Stasis
4 Frozen AEther
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thwart
4 Claws of Gix
4 Boomerang
22 Island
2 Stroke of Genius
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force Spike
SB: 4 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 3 Ensnare
If I was going to run Mono U Stasis, it would look something like this. Boomerang and Claws of Gix are for bouncing Stasis, keeping your life high, and playing a generally well rounded game of Magic.
Stroke of Genius is the kill that also pitches to Force of Will, and is better in the long run over Blue Sun's Zenith incase your opponent plays cards that turns your Islands into other lands. Not only that but Blue Sun's Zenith reshuffles back into your library, and if your wanting to play a long control game you might not want that effect to occur since it can clog up your hand, and give you bad draws. It's a preference thing really.
If Gush was unrestricted this deck would be atleast in contention every match seeing as how Gush gives you unrestricted card draw but that is not the case, instead we play Accumulated Knowledge since we won't mind if it get's countered as it's just a benefit.
Other options include over Force Spike include Misdirection, Divert, Disrupt, Pact of Negation, Disrupting Shoal and Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce.
As for the Sideboard Grafdigger's Cage is to fight Dredge, Reanimator, and Flashback strategies.
Chill is to fight Burn, Goblins, Burning Wish, Sneak Attack.
Back to Basics to is another soft lock we usually bring in game 2 against most of the field.
Ensnare is for creature heavy decks and provides a out to Emralku under a Stasis and Frozen Aether.
I feel like in a new format moving on with a weakened Jund and UR Storm Combo Sunny Side Up is in a good position to become one of if not the formats premier combo deck. (Twin, Pod UR Storm hold those spots).
I personally think that unbanning cards is the easiest way to change the format. With that being said how much worse is Zur than Braids, Cabal Minion? You want to play cheap lockdown, it goes both ways.
See the thing is, whatever you unban just about as easily changes the #1 deck to that color. (We can see this in Edric, Rofellos, Erayo) Braids is also in this category since it could compete with Zur. Now whether or not Braids does so on a broad scale as the 3 other banned Generals will take a closer look. Out of those 3 Rofellos and Edric might as well be tied for 1st, and Erayo is a step above Braids IMO. Erayo out of the 4 total would be 3rd strongest though, because that you get those spells casted fast or control the game to get the flip. Something some players are uncomfortable with.
Braids also has a niche factor like Erayo, having to play a attrition Staxlike game with yourself is just as straining sometimes as it is for the opponent. So that makes the deck atleast get played in the hands of skilled players, much like Erayo. Now let's look at what Zur accomplishes again. It just is a swing and win everyone has been saying? Atleast Erayo and Braids (unlike Edric and Rofellos whose impact is burstlike Zur) are harder to pull off. Someone can still take down the Erayo Enchantment, Braids can get destroyed yaddayadda.. Those are monocolor decks too, Zur has the comfort of tech as a weapon. It looks like to me that Zur is just the next best deck a step down from how Edric was. 3 mana to 4 mana. So going to another 4 mana(Braids) Is fair right? Looking at it again though I would say that another reason Braids sits on list like these is because of the pressure it provides in a multiplayer game. While Edric and Zur are playing solitaire style accomplish the goal and Rofellos is pump mana for it's game. Braids is atleast just as powerful as Zur is in that light. But Zur is one of the last good solitaire decks that can dominate. But so can Braids even without things like Crucible of Worlds, Tabernacle, Bitterblossom etc. You would really not want those cards when Braids is legal.
I predict this deck deserves/wil receive a ban list adjustment. Anything that can win on turn 1 (Blazing Shoal) is ineraction Wizards does not want. This whole deck now with Griselbrand is a pile of uninteraction. Expect ban.
There are 2 ways to adjust this deck. (That I know). My general consensus on Vendillion Clique is that it's better to go all-in on 1 matchup you need to beat rather than try to mix and match certain answers since most of the time the answers you need are in multiples, while the other set of answers in that matchup are just dead.
One way is the current style that has tons of free counter, draw, mana denial.(This still has a chance against Edric)
The second way is to give you a better Edric matchup, and it uses all the available Griptide effects, and possibly more bounce. (This has less of a chance against Geist)
I changed my deck up a little bit since Avacyn's Restored came out so go figure my numbers might be off. Usually I would have Rushing River in there somewhere, but since this new set I'm testing Devastating Tides. Too good in EDH for a 2 mana Evacuation. It giving me another out in my Geist beater Vendillion Clique.
Yeah, this deck has problems against Aggro decks if it doesn't use Griptides. It can have more problems against control decks however like Geist of Saint Traft/GAAV, if it does not have the counter package I have in there like Flusterstorm, Disrupting Shoal, and Second Guess. Geist of Saint Traft resolving against us is very, very bad. They usually can win with this guy out since none of our Griptide package against Edric works on him and our bounce becomes useless that is generally used for permanents. He has to be taken care of with counterspells. Eventhough Geist is a (Aggro Control) deck just because of his Hexproof, in this thread he will be control since he forces us to remake our deck not using Griptides and instead counterspells. Pick your poison, lose to Edric/Red Decks or lose to Geist of Saint Traft/GAAV. Of course you can win against both of them with both builds it just requires more luck, and sometimes using Vendillion Clique it is more about matchups since generally the deck plays out the same everygame with as little varience as possible.
You try for 21 general damage. No? Plan B.
Tunnel Vision. No? Play the game of Magic. AKA Plan C.
Let's go for Jace Ultimate. Using Pithing Needle I see.
30 points of normal combat damage or manual deck milling, concession etc.
So Vendillion Clique is a very versitile general that can beat anydeck in this metagame if it's tailored too it, but has weakness obviously to Blue hate cards, and whatever you don't prepare for in the structure of your deck. And in French EDH there is only Aggro(Edric/Red decks)or Control(Geist/GAAV). So you pick to hope to run into 1 and get lucky the rest of the day for the other.
Don't try to make the argument yadda yadda theres combo decks. The combo decks fall to the same things the control decks do. This is the Vendillion Clique thread, not the talk about Clique thread.
So post your decks not your opinons. If you do have opinon's, lets let them be about the cards and how they have worked for you or haven't been.
Actually you can build Metalworker Combo MUD to acheive a close to 90% turn two win ratio, or higher!. Infact, you can even win on the first turn with this deck because of Time Vault and Voltaic Key. The point is to play Metalworker first turn. Then second turn play Umbral Mantle, or Staff of Domination with lots of artifacts in your hand and win.
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Treetop Village
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Primal Command
3 Death Cloud
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Thoughtseize
3 Damnation
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Smother
5 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cry of Contrition
SB: 3 Crime // Punishment
SB: 2 Primal Command
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Damnation
I am losing to Jund, The Mirror, and Living End.deck
I board in 7+ cards against living end.. and still lose. What am I doing wrong? Primal Command, Leylines, and a Relic should make them scoop but somehow lucksacking into Demonic Dreads, Beast Withins and etc is easy for them to do with their superb draw engine. If someone can give me some kind of answers I would appreciate it.
Jund... Braidblood Elf.. nuff said.
The Mirror? Well that comes down to who had what and when.
Those are the matchups I have ever lost with this deck. And I have atleast about high 20-30 something matches played with this deck, but even with experience it is not always enough.
Of course the sideboard and maindeck are different as I go along, like taking out Solemn Simlucrum. Far too slow for this format, and Cry of Contrition I think makes this deck waay better than any other option in the format. 2 for 1 off Sakura all day. If there was only a way to get 8 tribe elders, then this would be tier 1 without question.
So does anyone have any advice on how to beat Jund and Living End.worse than dredge? The comments on having stuff like spot removal is worthless, I would rather discard their hand so they can't drop the stuff. I've considered splashing Red far to much, but I don't think thats the direction of a Rock deck. Bloodbraif Elf into Blightning makes me shake my head at how silly that is.. just like Living End monsters.
I win most of my game 1's off just how good the deck is bar Living End. Game 2 I mix it up by bringing in tons of discard and control so I usually take the cake 2-0. If it so happens to go to game 3, discard shines there too when I nab their Noble/Birds or Titans etc. Leave them stripped.
Maybe a better question would be. How do you beat Jund decks? I pretty much dominate everything except decks using Kitchen Finks or Bloodbraid Elf. Then it becomes who can get a Finks first, or find the most of a card etc. Bloodbraif Elf is a beating too. Gets around Inquisition and Smother. Any answers?
I am having trouble against decks using Kitchen Finks to match my Kitchen Finks. So how do I stop Persist creatures in Modern? How do I stop the Mirror?
Being able to randomly recover draws off Scrying Sheets is a good idea with those snow- lands and Coldsteel Heart.
I would not cut Duplicant. This card is too good when playing against competitive EDH decks as it stops their generals for a turn and sacs to Arcum. But if you think Duplicant is not getting the job done, it can be cut. I just think it's usefulness is above and beyond the 6 mana cost investment.
I don't like All is Dust since it is dead at letting you combo off. If your worried about permanents you prolly have already lost unless they are running jank like you said, Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage. Which are not very good in EDH since you -1 CA yourself on a key turn to play ramp.
I would run as much 2CMC and 3CMC artifact ramp as possible, even with the terrible creatures... No Mishra's Workshop? Really? It doesn't matter if you can't cast Arcum off it. It is a black lotus every turn in this deck.
I am unsure on the Time Walks in this type of deck, but being a owner of (Capture of Jingzhou plus the rest) I can attest to their usage in anything using blue.
Arcum Dagsson really has a edge up on what everyone else is running. Zur requires certain colors, and Sharuum is a bit more luck sackish. Azami is slightly slower. The key here is.. How good is your Hermit Druid matchup? Yes. That determines how useful your deck is optimized. Hermit Druid wins turns 1-4 almost every game. This is the multiplayer variant, of course. Hermit Druid's weakness is to the countermagic of course.
So usually in all my Blue EDH decks you want to balance the best countermagic versus ramp. The auto includes are.. Spell Crumple, Hinder, Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Cryptic Command. I might have missed 1, but besides that. Thats 6 counterspells out of 99 cards.
More than Hermit Druid runs, but just enough to scoot you by. Spell Crumple and Hinder have to be in these Blue EDH decks, simply because they take Zur, Sharuum, Azami, Arcum out of the game unless they can draw them.
You really need to run Pact even if you can't pay the cost, because out of any other counterspell you can run, you might as well sacrifice yourself to stop that Hermit Druid. Honestly. Heck, someone might even slip you some packs under the table. Force of Will/Mana Drain/Cryptic Command are staples. You run them because you are in Blue. This argument applys to Brainstorm as well.
Arcum's advantage over the 'other' Big Blue EDH decks not using Hermit Druid is really speed. Thats why I think Mishra's Workshop is important to a deck like this, even if it's not relevant in most games. You can usually be a step ahead of other combo decks in the combo game, barring something silly that is not blue. (Maralen-Ad Nauseam, Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon.) Those types of decks are not as consistant as Big Blue EDH decks are, and usually are cost prohibitive. (Imperial Seal for instance resides in these kinds of decks.) Sharuum the Hedgemoon or Arcum seem like the only contenders to race you as a Blue deck barring disruptive countermagic/jank effects. (Null Rod anyone?)
Terrible ban list for both of them. I mean in the MTGSalvation list I get to play Rofellos and win my games pretty clutchly. Then with the French banlist you play Clique or gtfo. What kind of varience is that?
I atleast want a format (mtgsalvation) where I can play something besides Rofellos or Library of Alexander.broken/deck. The French list is more fair and thought out on what is used. I know these list have been debated over and over and decided on what is used etc so I am not going into that. But I think atleast with the French, they got something right and thats why it is one of the most popular list to use.. barring Vendilion Clique.
4 Frozen AEther
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thwart
4 Claws of Gix
4 Boomerang
22 Island
2 Stroke of Genius
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force Spike
SB: 4 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 3 Ensnare
If I was going to run Mono U Stasis, it would look something like this. Boomerang and Claws of Gix are for bouncing Stasis, keeping your life high, and playing a generally well rounded game of Magic.
Stroke of Genius is the kill that also pitches to Force of Will, and is better in the long run over Blue Sun's Zenith incase your opponent plays cards that turns your Islands into other lands. Not only that but Blue Sun's Zenith reshuffles back into your library, and if your wanting to play a long control game you might not want that effect to occur since it can clog up your hand, and give you bad draws. It's a preference thing really.
If Gush was unrestricted this deck would be atleast in contention every match seeing as how Gush gives you unrestricted card draw but that is not the case, instead we play Accumulated Knowledge since we won't mind if it get's countered as it's just a benefit.
Other options include over Force Spike include Misdirection, Divert, Disrupt, Pact of Negation, Disrupting Shoal and Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce.
As for the Sideboard Grafdigger's Cage is to fight Dredge, Reanimator, and Flashback strategies.
Chill is to fight Burn, Goblins, Burning Wish, Sneak Attack.
Back to Basics to is another soft lock we usually bring in game 2 against most of the field.
Ensnare is for creature heavy decks and provides a out to Emralku under a Stasis and Frozen Aether.
Any suggestions feel free to post.
See the thing is, whatever you unban just about as easily changes the #1 deck to that color. (We can see this in Edric, Rofellos, Erayo) Braids is also in this category since it could compete with Zur. Now whether or not Braids does so on a broad scale as the 3 other banned Generals will take a closer look. Out of those 3 Rofellos and Edric might as well be tied for 1st, and Erayo is a step above Braids IMO. Erayo out of the 4 total would be 3rd strongest though, because that you get those spells casted fast or control the game to get the flip. Something some players are uncomfortable with.
Braids also has a niche factor like Erayo, having to play a attrition Staxlike game with yourself is just as straining sometimes as it is for the opponent. So that makes the deck atleast get played in the hands of skilled players, much like Erayo. Now let's look at what Zur accomplishes again. It just is a swing and win everyone has been saying? Atleast Erayo and Braids (unlike Edric and Rofellos whose impact is burstlike Zur) are harder to pull off. Someone can still take down the Erayo Enchantment, Braids can get destroyed yaddayadda.. Those are monocolor decks too, Zur has the comfort of tech as a weapon. It looks like to me that Zur is just the next best deck a step down from how Edric was. 3 mana to 4 mana. So going to another 4 mana(Braids) Is fair right? Looking at it again though I would say that another reason Braids sits on list like these is because of the pressure it provides in a multiplayer game. While Edric and Zur are playing solitaire style accomplish the goal and Rofellos is pump mana for it's game. Braids is atleast just as powerful as Zur is in that light. But Zur is one of the last good solitaire decks that can dominate. But so can Braids even without things like Crucible of Worlds, Tabernacle, Bitterblossom etc. You would really not want those cards when Braids is legal.
Heres the decklist.
(Anti-Geist/GAAV within reason)
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
1 Force Spike
1 Submerge
1 Essence Scatter
1 Exclude
1 False Summoning
1 Negate
1 Preemptive Strike
1 Psychic Barrier
1 Remove Soul
1 Spell Pierce
1 Cryptic Command
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ertai's Meddling
1 Spell Crumple
1 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Remand
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Snap
1 Dust Bowl
1 Wasteland
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Spell Snare
1 Delay
1 Memory Lapse
1 Wipe Away
1 Complicate
1 Daze
1 Deprive
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Dream Fracture
1 Frightful Delusion
1 Miscalculation
1 Rewind
1 Consign to Dream
1 Gush
1 Into the Roil
1 Repeal
1 Repulse
1 Withdraw
25 Snow-Covered Island
1 Flusterstorm
1 Brainstorm
1 Standstill
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Spin into Myth
1 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Squelch
1 Interdict
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Devastation Tide
1 Second Guess
1 Vanishment
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Logic Knot
1 Hinder
1 Dissipate
There are 2 ways to adjust this deck. (That I know). My general consensus on Vendillion Clique is that it's better to go all-in on 1 matchup you need to beat rather than try to mix and match certain answers since most of the time the answers you need are in multiples, while the other set of answers in that matchup are just dead.
One way is the current style that has tons of free counter, draw, mana denial.(This still has a chance against Edric)
The second way is to give you a better Edric matchup, and it uses all the available Griptide effects, and possibly more bounce. (This has less of a chance against Geist)
I changed my deck up a little bit since Avacyn's Restored came out so go figure my numbers might be off. Usually I would have Rushing River in there somewhere, but since this new set I'm testing Devastating Tides. Too good in EDH for a 2 mana Evacuation. It giving me another out in my Geist beater Vendillion Clique.
Yeah, this deck has problems against Aggro decks if it doesn't use Griptides. It can have more problems against control decks however like Geist of Saint Traft/GAAV, if it does not have the counter package I have in there like Flusterstorm, Disrupting Shoal, and Second Guess. Geist of Saint Traft resolving against us is very, very bad. They usually can win with this guy out since none of our Griptide package against Edric works on him and our bounce becomes useless that is generally used for permanents. He has to be taken care of with counterspells. Eventhough Geist is a (Aggro Control) deck just because of his Hexproof, in this thread he will be control since he forces us to remake our deck not using Griptides and instead counterspells. Pick your poison, lose to Edric/Red Decks or lose to Geist of Saint Traft/GAAV. Of course you can win against both of them with both builds it just requires more luck, and sometimes using Vendillion Clique it is more about matchups since generally the deck plays out the same everygame with as little varience as possible.
You try for 21 general damage. No? Plan B.
Tunnel Vision. No? Play the game of Magic. AKA Plan C.
Let's go for Jace Ultimate. Using Pithing Needle I see.
30 points of normal combat damage or manual deck milling, concession etc.
So Vendillion Clique is a very versitile general that can beat anydeck in this metagame if it's tailored too it, but has weakness obviously to Blue hate cards, and whatever you don't prepare for in the structure of your deck. And in French EDH there is only Aggro(Edric/Red decks)or Control(Geist/GAAV). So you pick to hope to run into 1 and get lucky the rest of the day for the other.
Don't try to make the argument yadda yadda theres combo decks. The combo decks fall to the same things the control decks do. This is the Vendillion Clique thread, not the talk about Clique thread.
So post your decks not your opinons. If you do have opinon's, lets let them be about the cards and how they have worked for you or haven't been.
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Treetop Village
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Primal Command
3 Death Cloud
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Thoughtseize
3 Damnation
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Smother
5 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cry of Contrition
SB: 3 Crime // Punishment
SB: 2 Primal Command
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Damnation
I am losing to Jund, The Mirror, and Living End.deck
I board in 7+ cards against living end.. and still lose. What am I doing wrong? Primal Command, Leylines, and a Relic should make them scoop but somehow lucksacking into Demonic Dreads, Beast Withins and etc is easy for them to do with their superb draw engine. If someone can give me some kind of answers I would appreciate it.
Jund... Braidblood Elf.. nuff said.
The Mirror? Well that comes down to who had what and when.
Those are the matchups I have ever lost with this deck. And I have atleast about high 20-30 something matches played with this deck, but even with experience it is not always enough.
Of course the sideboard and maindeck are different as I go along, like taking out Solemn Simlucrum. Far too slow for this format, and Cry of Contrition I think makes this deck waay better than any other option in the format. 2 for 1 off Sakura all day. If there was only a way to get 8 tribe elders, then this would be tier 1 without question.
So does anyone have any advice on how to beat Jund and Living End.worse than dredge? The comments on having stuff like spot removal is worthless, I would rather discard their hand so they can't drop the stuff. I've considered splashing Red far to much, but I don't think thats the direction of a Rock deck. Bloodbraif Elf into Blightning makes me shake my head at how silly that is.. just like Living End monsters.
I win most of my game 1's off just how good the deck is bar Living End. Game 2 I mix it up by bringing in tons of discard and control so I usually take the cake 2-0. If it so happens to go to game 3, discard shines there too when I nab their Noble/Birds or Titans etc. Leave them stripped.
No Worn Powerstone, Dreamstone Hedron?
Being able to randomly recover draws off Scrying Sheets is a good idea with those snow- lands and Coldsteel Heart.
I would not cut Duplicant. This card is too good when playing against competitive EDH decks as it stops their generals for a turn and sacs to Arcum. But if you think Duplicant is not getting the job done, it can be cut. I just think it's usefulness is above and beyond the 6 mana cost investment.
I don't like All is Dust since it is dead at letting you combo off. If your worried about permanents you prolly have already lost unless they are running jank like you said, Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage. Which are not very good in EDH since you -1 CA yourself on a key turn to play ramp.
I would run as much 2CMC and 3CMC artifact ramp as possible, even with the terrible creatures... No Mishra's Workshop? Really? It doesn't matter if you can't cast Arcum off it. It is a black lotus every turn in this deck.
I am unsure on the Time Walks in this type of deck, but being a owner of (Capture of Jingzhou plus the rest) I can attest to their usage in anything using blue.
Arcum Dagsson really has a edge up on what everyone else is running. Zur requires certain colors, and Sharuum is a bit more luck sackish. Azami is slightly slower. The key here is.. How good is your Hermit Druid matchup? Yes. That determines how useful your deck is optimized. Hermit Druid wins turns 1-4 almost every game. This is the multiplayer variant, of course. Hermit Druid's weakness is to the countermagic of course.
So usually in all my Blue EDH decks you want to balance the best countermagic versus ramp. The auto includes are.. Spell Crumple, Hinder, Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Cryptic Command. I might have missed 1, but besides that. Thats 6 counterspells out of 99 cards.
More than Hermit Druid runs, but just enough to scoot you by. Spell Crumple and Hinder have to be in these Blue EDH decks, simply because they take Zur, Sharuum, Azami, Arcum out of the game unless they can draw them.
You really need to run Pact even if you can't pay the cost, because out of any other counterspell you can run, you might as well sacrifice yourself to stop that Hermit Druid. Honestly. Heck, someone might even slip you some packs under the table.
Arcum's advantage over the 'other' Big Blue EDH decks not using Hermit Druid is really speed. Thats why I think Mishra's Workshop is important to a deck like this, even if it's not relevant in most games. You can usually be a step ahead of other combo decks in the combo game, barring something silly that is not blue. (Maralen-Ad Nauseam, Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon.) Those types of decks are not as consistant as Big Blue EDH decks are, and usually are cost prohibitive. (Imperial Seal for instance resides in these kinds of decks.) Sharuum the Hedgemoon or Arcum seem like the only contenders to race you as a Blue deck barring disruptive countermagic/jank effects. (Null Rod anyone?)
I atleast want a format (mtgsalvation) where I can play something besides Rofellos or Library of Alexander.broken/deck. The French list is more fair and thought out on what is used. I know these list have been debated over and over and decided on what is used etc so I am not going into that. But I think atleast with the French, they got something right and thats why it is one of the most popular list to use.. barring Vendilion Clique.