I thought the deck was fairly good, expected to go 2-1 but thought I had a decent chance of 3-0. Issues with the deck were that I had no real bombs, was missing some of the better white removal, and my curve was a little higher on 3 drops than would have ideal; but overall it seemed solid. For whatever reason, the players in my pod did not seem to be interested in Blinding Drone, I got them all 5-9th pick, even had to pass one of them because I needed to take a colorless source over it.
Overperformers - Support cards (Shoulder to Shoulder, Relief Captain, and Expedition Raptor) all ended up playing better than I expected. Shoulder to Shoulder was the one I was least sure about, but I was always happy when I cast it.
Underperformers - Roiling Waters never ended up being great for me. In retrospect, I think that's just because I had multiple other ways to push through damage with Blinding Drone and Cryptic Cruiser, so it wasn't necessary (and being a seven mana spell it would often sit in my hand). Blinding Drone was great... though drawing multiples when I only had one colorless source wasn't always the best.
Definitely not a powerful pool, but you actually have a pretty good curve for an aggressive base UR deck. I went with a black splash for Fathom Feeder and Oblivion Strike, but you could easily splash white instead for Reflector Mage and Ondu Rising.
But I have to say, I wouldn't splash for a 1/1 deathtouch. Baloth Null doesn't have great stats at 4/5 for 6. its ability is goo. But there'S nothing really good to get back from your graveyard. The best you could do is get two 1/1 scions.
Oddly enough I agree with you on Fathom Feeder for BK's deck (his deck is already leaning heavily on his mana and I would rather have something that can reliably be played on turn 2 like Coralhelm Guide), but Baloth Null is quite good, and definitely worth splashing. Getting back two threats in the lategame, even if they're somewhat dorky threats, is huge. He's been compared to Mulldrifter, which I don't think is much of a stretch.
Went 4-0 with a RG beatdown deck, but I opened a very solid pool (turns out 2 fall of the titans is pretty good).
I echo cohort being difficult to activate in sealed, most of the time you won't have enough allies to activate it reliably. Luckily, most of the cohort creatures have reasonably stats anyway, so they are still worth playing, just realize that about 1/3 to 1/2 the time the cohort ability won't be used unless you have 8+ allies.
Scions are useful for activating waste-costs, as expected. Especially mid-combat, you can chump with a scion then sac it to play spatial contortion or activate stalking drone. I don't think you can rely on scion makers as a colorless source, as you're still down half a card whenever you use them, but it adds another avenue of colorless-making in a pinch.
The games definitely felt more board-state and creature-combat oriented. Combat tricks are better than they were in BFZ, definitely compared to BFZ sealed, as is stuff like turn against. Boiling Earth is worse as there aren't as many x/1's running around. My games never got to the point where we were casting 7+ mana eldrazi, but that may have been just because my deck was fairly aggressive.
edit:
Is it worth it to frequently go 18 lands for this sealed to make your manabase better?
I think 18 lands is correct still. There's a lot of mana sink type cards in this format, and as you say you are often going to want to splash for wastes.
Anointer of Champions will be quite good in an aggressive deck that is looking to curve out, I think. It needs a fair number of good 2 and 3 drops (especially with Renown) but in that deck I think it is good.
I'm pretty sure that Molten Vortex is worth it, especially in a deck without much of a top-end. Even if you only end up discarding two lands, that's still almost equivalent to a pyrotechnics, which is a bomb.
I agree with jar on Leaf Gilder and Eyeblight Assassin. I think there are enough X/1's to justify Eyeblight Assassin in the maindeck (and when it's good it will be very good), but occasionally it will need to be sided out.
It's hard to give advice when people just ask "how do I get better?". There's a lot that goes into Limited Magic, so without knowing the skill level or the issues the player is having, it's impossible to give advice that helps them without more info.
With some information though, I think it's very possible to help players at the FNM level. There's no "silver bullet" that transforms them into a pro player, but you have to go one step at a time. I've noticed a lot of FNM players miss simple stuff like "take removal highly" or "Try to have at least 15 creatures" or "1 drops tend to not be worth a card in limited". Many players know these things, but there are definitely some that don't, and can get better from little advice like this.
At higher levels, asking for advice here can still be useful, again as long as people give some specifics that the people here can give input on. The thread NFL brought up was great because it showed an issue with how the OP was evaluating cards and how to make a consistent deck. Not everyone is going to agree what's "right" or "wrong" once we get to more complicated decisions, but there are a lot of good players here, and getting some different voices on a question can be helpful too.
As NFL said, some of the cards you listed I wouldn't really want to play even in the archetype. Cached Defenses in particular doesn't need to be picked highly (as no other deck wants it), and it's too easy to set yourself up for a 2-for-1 much like the runemarks. I would take solid creatures, like sandcrafter mage, misthoof kirin, and sandsteppe outcast from white, or aerie bowmasters from green.
I haven't seen the UW rebound/spells archetype work particularly well either. Student of Ojutai is a good creature if you have Artful Manuver/Center Soul, but the other prowess-esque cards never seemed to be quite good enough to justify going all-in on the archetype.
I don't know if this is the right section for this, but just saw this and have to share my thoughts.
Look at the arts for Whisperwood Elemental and Forgotten Ancient. They are almost completely identical. Both have a small head with slightly extended neck, pronounced ribcage, small torso, and horselike toe/feet. The only real difference between them is that Forgotten Ancient has a small tail, which Whisperwood does not.
My first thought was that they must be the same artist, but they are not. Is this supposed to be an easter egg linking Tarkir's past to Dominaria's future? Maybe I'm looking too deep into this, but they look like the exact same creature, enough that I can't quite believe that's it's just coincidence.
DFF is a fairly tempo oriented format (as compared to Khan), so I don't like these cards as much as I would in Khans. I was happy to play Hero's Blade in FKK, but in DFF I could see it being too slow. I can see it in a UW deck with plenty of evasion (and prowess). I wouldn't call it bad/unplayable, but I certainly wouldn't jam it in every deck.
Echoes of the Kin Tree is like a much worse Mastery of the Unseen. It's amazing once the game gets to topdeck mode, but until then you almost always have something better to do with your mana. My gut is that the format is just too fast for this card to be good (especially against red decks), but I could definitely see it coming in from the sideboard against slower decks.
Quote from Phyrre »
The same experts who don't like these cards have probably thought about many of these same concepts. Your argument seems to center around "but they're just not seeing it the way I do" which rarely works out because you're talking about the collective wisdom of the best players in the world. Trust me, they've thought about it that way.
Even pros don't know everything though. LR also thought that Temur Battle Rage was unplayable, and that Ugin was unplayable in anything but a ramp deck. After experience with the set, he admitted to misjudging the cards. I'm not saying this to bash LSV/Marshal or anything, They're right like 98% of the time, but it's much better to evaluate things for oneself than to rely on what pros say. That way, even when you end up being wrong, you can learn from it by looking at why the pros didn't like it. And if you end up being right, then it's a good sign that you are starting to understand the game.
Yeah its not much of a reason but it is the only one i can provide, i dont begrudge you the pressure vote, i see where you are coming from, if you have anything specific you want to discuss by all means.
Well, let's start with this: What do you think of the wagon on Zionite?
Quote from Archon »
I'm feeling town on Sepiriel. Her posts are very stream-of-consciousness; I don't believe she's filtering herself, which indicates town.
Maybe, but it's easier to post unfiltered as scum when what you're saying isn't directly related to scumhunting.
Cythare I'm getting scum reads from. Notably - his interactions with Antny re: Sepiriel, and his latest post about cooling off. What does he have to cool off from? He wasn't in any significant arguments. But if he was frustrated that his latest target, Huntzilla, became towncleared or nearly towncleared - that would be something to cool off from.
Cythare was the host for the other game Hunt was in, which might have something to do with it. Or it could have been RL related. Don't think he would say he needs to cool off if the reason he needed to cool off was a scum reason; that just doesn't make sense.
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@Killjoy: I think Godot is town. It's mostly a gut read, but actually it's similar to the reason Archon has Sepi as town; everything he's posting appears to be completely unfiltered, and unlike Sepi, he's giving reads and scumhunting as well.
I see your point on the Cythare question, and his reaction was a little weird. Still, I think that's more due to him just posting what he's thinking without thinking about how it looks.
@Huntzilla: I asked for your animal because I thought you already claimed your role, and didn't see any harm to claiming your flavor. I still don't see the harm, but it's not a huge deal either.
Hunt's role is likely town, enough that lynching him Day 1 probably isn't a good idea. I don't want people to forget about him though.
If Hunt is scum, Chris is pretty much confirmed town.
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On Snurfy: I haven't been getting scum vibes from his recent posts, and I like his activity. Most of the stuff people are taking issue with are from him being new.
On Cythare: I'm still not seeing the case on her, and I think her interaction with Antny makes her more likely town than scum. I don't see fluff posts from her either, so I dunno what Zionite is talking about there.
I'm really not a fan of Zionite's vote on Cythare, and nothing he's done has been giving me strong town vibes. Only thing giving me some doubts is that he usually seems like scum in games that I've played with him, but I would be okay with lynching him.
However, I really think Sepiriel needs some attention. She has been doing hardly any scumhunting; a vote on Sir Chris near the beginning of the game... and nothing since then. While I agree with her with regards to Cythare, and I agree with her that we shouldn't assume Hunt is town because of his role, but neither of those things helps us find scum today.
I thought that Godot said something about Huntzilla replacing him in the other game... but it looks like that isn't the case, so nvm I guess.
I'd just rather not have modkills when they aren't necessary. If he's scum, we get an unfair advantage. If he's town, the scum get an unfair advantage. Either way it messes with the balance of the game.
:/ He doesn't need to be modkilled. I can understand it for the other game, because what he said here made it somewhat obvious that he was town there (especially given Godot's reaction). But I don't think it applies vice-versa.
Hmm, there are a two main ways Hunt's role could be a scum role:
-Can only give the extra vote to non-mafia
-Can only use the ability Day 1-3 (ie before lylo)
The role is definitely more likely to be town, but it is possible it's a scum role. He used his role... pretty much exactly how I would expect either town or scum to use it, both would want to confirm it once they get pressured. Still feel his behavior has been scummy, but probability-wise it's more likely a town role.
I backed off because of Chris and his post. Chris is one of my favortie town analysts, and I trust his judgement. He said Snurf is good, so I pretty much /barned him.
I am new to the site too, so yes, the idea that noobs are easier to mislynch is fresh in my head.
It still looks odd. Chris basically just gave a gut read... What if Chris were scum?
@godot: I assume you play Magic? You ever hear the stories about how new players cast T1 Lightning Bolt at their opponent because hey, the goal is to lower the opponent's life total, right? The reason it's bad strategy is that it maximizes the opponent's opportunity to adapt to his circumstances, while minimizing your ability to adapt to yours. The same principle applies in mafia. Show some restraint, and hold things a little (a lot) closer to the vest unless you have a specific goal you're trying to achieve that you think your info/suspicions/thoughts have some potential to accomplish.
Well, unless you're playing a burn deck and have no other T1 play. Better analogy would be why you leave all colors of mana untapped if you can, even if you have nothing to play during their turn.
But, um, there are pluses and minuses to restraint. Typically, you want to keep role info close to the chest and most other things out in the open, though there are benefits to the flip side of both of those.
From Hunt: He's definitely frustrated, but it looks more like frustrated at being caught for (in his mind) dumb reasons. What makes you think he's town?
On Puddle: Scum can be cool and calculated, but so can town. It's usually more of a playstyle thing than an alignment thing (though it's easy to be scum when you are cool and calculated). What specifically makes you think this is his scum game?
3 Blinding Drone
1 Hedron Crawler
1 Kor Sky Climber
1 Shadow Glider
1 Wall of Resurgence
2 Benthic Infiltrator
1 Cultivator Drone
1 Relief Captain
1 Cryptic Cruiser
1 Murk Strider
1 Expedition Raptor
1 Jwar Isle Avenger
1 Oracle of Dust
1 Windrider Patrol
1 Searing Light
1 Sheer Drop
1 Shoulder to Shoulder
1 Containment Membrane
1 Sweep Away
1 Roiling Waters
Lands: 17
1 Unknown Shores
1 Holdout Settlement
1 Wastes
1 Sandstone Bridge
1 Meandering River
7 Island
5 Plains
1 Searing Light
1 Spell Shrivel
1 Comparative Analysis
1 Roilmage's Trick
1 Wastes
P1P1 was Oath of Nissa (worth a few tickets and reasonably playable), P2P1 was Relief Captain (iirc), P3P1 was Windrider Patrol.
I thought the deck was fairly good, expected to go 2-1 but thought I had a decent chance of 3-0. Issues with the deck were that I had no real bombs, was missing some of the better white removal, and my curve was a little higher on 3 drops than would have ideal; but overall it seemed solid. For whatever reason, the players in my pod did not seem to be interested in Blinding Drone, I got them all 5-9th pick, even had to pass one of them because I needed to take a colorless source over it.
Overperformers - Support cards (Shoulder to Shoulder, Relief Captain, and Expedition Raptor) all ended up playing better than I expected. Shoulder to Shoulder was the one I was least sure about, but I was always happy when I cast it.
Underperformers - Roiling Waters never ended up being great for me. In retrospect, I think that's just because I had multiple other ways to push through damage with Blinding Drone and Cryptic Cruiser, so it wasn't necessary (and being a seven mana spell it would often sit in my hand). Blinding Drone was great... though drawing multiples when I only had one colorless source wasn't always the best.
1 akoum stonewaker
1 makindi sliderunner
1 zada's commando
1 Fathom feeder
1 Stormchaser Mage
1 Coralhelm guide
1 eldrazi skyspawner
1 benthic inflitrator
1 akoum flameseeker
1 cultivator drone
1 Thought harvester
1 embodiment of fury
1 cyclone sire
1 jwar isle avenger
1 cinder hellion
1 Ulamog's Despoiler
Spells 5
1 negate
1 devour in flames
1 boulder salvo
1 brute strength
1 Oblivion Strike
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Holdout Settlements
1 Wandering Fumarol
1 Swamp
7 Island
6 Mountain
Oddly enough I agree with you on Fathom Feeder for BK's deck (his deck is already leaning heavily on his mana and I would rather have something that can reliably be played on turn 2 like Coralhelm Guide), but Baloth Null is quite good, and definitely worth splashing. Getting back two threats in the lategame, even if they're somewhat dorky threats, is huge. He's been compared to Mulldrifter, which I don't think is much of a stretch.
I echo cohort being difficult to activate in sealed, most of the time you won't have enough allies to activate it reliably. Luckily, most of the cohort creatures have reasonably stats anyway, so they are still worth playing, just realize that about 1/3 to 1/2 the time the cohort ability won't be used unless you have 8+ allies.
Scions are useful for activating waste-costs, as expected. Especially mid-combat, you can chump with a scion then sac it to play spatial contortion or activate stalking drone. I don't think you can rely on scion makers as a colorless source, as you're still down half a card whenever you use them, but it adds another avenue of colorless-making in a pinch.
The games definitely felt more board-state and creature-combat oriented. Combat tricks are better than they were in BFZ, definitely compared to BFZ sealed, as is stuff like turn against. Boiling Earth is worse as there aren't as many x/1's running around. My games never got to the point where we were casting 7+ mana eldrazi, but that may have been just because my deck was fairly aggressive.
edit:
I think 18 lands is correct still. There's a lot of mana sink type cards in this format, and as you say you are often going to want to splash for wastes.
I'm pretty sure that Molten Vortex is worth it, especially in a deck without much of a top-end. Even if you only end up discarding two lands, that's still almost equivalent to a pyrotechnics, which is a bomb.
I agree with jar on Leaf Gilder and Eyeblight Assassin. I think there are enough X/1's to justify Eyeblight Assassin in the maindeck (and when it's good it will be very good), but occasionally it will need to be sided out.
With some information though, I think it's very possible to help players at the FNM level. There's no "silver bullet" that transforms them into a pro player, but you have to go one step at a time. I've noticed a lot of FNM players miss simple stuff like "take removal highly" or "Try to have at least 15 creatures" or "1 drops tend to not be worth a card in limited". Many players know these things, but there are definitely some that don't, and can get better from little advice like this.
At higher levels, asking for advice here can still be useful, again as long as people give some specifics that the people here can give input on. The thread NFL brought up was great because it showed an issue with how the OP was evaluating cards and how to make a consistent deck. Not everyone is going to agree what's "right" or "wrong" once we get to more complicated decisions, but there are a lot of good players here, and getting some different voices on a question can be helpful too.
I haven't seen the UW rebound/spells archetype work particularly well either. Student of Ojutai is a good creature if you have Artful Manuver/Center Soul, but the other prowess-esque cards never seemed to be quite good enough to justify going all-in on the archetype.
Look at the arts for Whisperwood Elemental and Forgotten Ancient. They are almost completely identical. Both have a small head with slightly extended neck, pronounced ribcage, small torso, and horselike toe/feet. The only real difference between them is that Forgotten Ancient has a small tail, which Whisperwood does not.
My first thought was that they must be the same artist, but they are not. Is this supposed to be an easter egg linking Tarkir's past to Dominaria's future? Maybe I'm looking too deep into this, but they look like the exact same creature, enough that I can't quite believe that's it's just coincidence.
Echoes of the Kin Tree is like a much worse Mastery of the Unseen. It's amazing once the game gets to topdeck mode, but until then you almost always have something better to do with your mana. My gut is that the format is just too fast for this card to be good (especially against red decks), but I could definitely see it coming in from the sideboard against slower decks.
Even pros don't know everything though. LR also thought that Temur Battle Rage was unplayable, and that Ugin was unplayable in anything but a ramp deck. After experience with the set, he admitted to misjudging the cards. I'm not saying this to bash LSV/Marshal or anything, They're right like 98% of the time, but it's much better to evaluate things for oneself than to rely on what pros say. That way, even when you end up being wrong, you can learn from it by looking at why the pros didn't like it. And if you end up being right, then it's a good sign that you are starting to understand the game.
Well, let's start with this: What do you think of the wagon on Zionite?
Maybe, but it's easier to post unfiltered as scum when what you're saying isn't directly related to scumhunting.
Cythare was the host for the other game Hunt was in, which might have something to do with it. Or it could have been RL related. Don't think he would say he needs to cool off if the reason he needed to cool off was a scum reason; that just doesn't make sense.
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@Killjoy: I think Godot is town. It's mostly a gut read, but actually it's similar to the reason Archon has Sepi as town; everything he's posting appears to be completely unfiltered, and unlike Sepi, he's giving reads and scumhunting as well.
I see your point on the Cythare question, and his reaction was a little weird. Still, I think that's more due to him just posting what he's thinking without thinking about how it looks.
Hunt's role is likely town, enough that lynching him Day 1 probably isn't a good idea. I don't want people to forget about him though.
If Hunt is scum, Chris is pretty much confirmed town.
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On Snurfy: I haven't been getting scum vibes from his recent posts, and I like his activity. Most of the stuff people are taking issue with are from him being new.
On Cythare: I'm still not seeing the case on her, and I think her interaction with Antny makes her more likely town than scum. I don't see fluff posts from her either, so I dunno what Zionite is talking about there.
I'm really not a fan of Zionite's vote on Cythare, and nothing he's done has been giving me strong town vibes. Only thing giving me some doubts is that he usually seems like scum in games that I've played with him, but I would be okay with lynching him.
However, I really think Sepiriel needs some attention. She has been doing hardly any scumhunting; a vote on Sir Chris near the beginning of the game... and nothing since then. While I agree with her with regards to Cythare, and I agree with her that we shouldn't assume Hunt is town because of his role, but neither of those things helps us find scum today.
Vote Sepiriel
I'd just rather not have modkills when they aren't necessary. If he's scum, we get an unfair advantage. If he's town, the scum get an unfair advantage. Either way it messes with the balance of the game.
-Can only give the extra vote to non-mafia
-Can only use the ability Day 1-3 (ie before lylo)
The role is definitely more likely to be town, but it is possible it's a scum role. He used his role... pretty much exactly how I would expect either town or scum to use it, both would want to confirm it once they get pressured. Still feel his behavior has been scummy, but probability-wise it's more likely a town role.
@Huntzilla: What animal are you?
It still looks odd. Chris basically just gave a gut read... What if Chris were scum?
Eh, especially given Hunt's reaction to it, I don't think they're buddies.
Well, unless you're playing a burn deck and have no other T1 play. Better analogy would be why you leave all colors of mana untapped if you can, even if you have nothing to play during their turn.
But, um, there are pluses and minuses to restraint. Typically, you want to keep role info close to the chest and most other things out in the open, though there are benefits to the flip side of both of those.
From Hunt: He's definitely frustrated, but it looks more like frustrated at being caught for (in his mind) dumb reasons. What makes you think he's town?
On Puddle: Scum can be cool and calculated, but so can town. It's usually more of a playstyle thing than an alignment thing (though it's easy to be scum when you are cool and calculated). What specifically makes you think this is his scum game?