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  • posted a message on [M21] Glorious Anthem reprint— CoolStuff Inc preview
    Not new art, this was originally the JSS promo. I enjoy the original, but I prefer this one.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [M21] Carrion Grub— CobaltStreak preview
    Within 1-2 sets, people will wonder why mill was never a keyword in the first place, just like with haste, lifelink, and vigilance.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Voldemort's Throne Room Mafia Signups | 20/20 Players

    Seems like a fun one to follow along.
    Posted in: Old Sign-ups
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives

    [url=https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/817078-matter-mafia-day-1-sursamens-eighth?comment=940]Rodemy's 940[/url] Never had Shadow anywhere close to town, always has been on the scum-lean side.

    [url=https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/817078-matter-mafia-day-1-sursamens-eighth?comment=945]Tom's 945[/url] Yeah, don't want to lynch a lurker cause it's generally dumb. Let Shadow catch up. I gave the reason why I thought my lynch needed to happen and I stand by it.

    Quote from Tom »
    I think itf is a lurker lynch with a little fancying up[/url]

    [quote=Killjoy] but I work in grocery[/url]
    oof, feel for you dude.

    [url=Grapefruit]ITF kind of has that just so level of foreignness where I can't figure out if his weirdness is meta differences, awkwardness fitting into a group that all knows each other, or scumminess. He's very much a shrug to me right now.ITF kind of has that just so level of foreignness where I can't figure out if his weirdness is meta differences, awkwardness fitting into a group that all knows each other, or scumminess. He's very much a shrug to me right now.[url]
    Yeah, I've felt like kind an outsider this game. Usually I love being vanilla town (was fist pumping when I got my role pm), but the meta has changed a bit on this site, and it's gotten more closely knit, making it hard to figure out AND not be super awkward. I wish I hadn't gotten discouraged.

    [url=https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/817078-matter-mafia-day-1-sursamens-eighth?comment=981]981[/url]Ugh, wanted to get away from my old meta, but apparently I'll always suck

    BlueElectric is an ISO alt, that game was super interesting. ISO was very new at that time (younger brother of Seppel) and I think he was trying to find his groove then.

    Forgot that ZDS was scum in LotrII, this game has been giving me ptsd from that one.

    [quote=ZDS]ITF, did you only take "notes" because I directly asked you for opinions on your wagon? If not why does it seem that way so much?
    (If yes I don't particularly care.)

    Embarrassing, but yeah, I don't generally take notes. These were my my notes AFTER checking the game ~3days later, which are focused on my wagon.

    [quote=ZDS]Right now the current me does not see in the current ITF what the past me saw in the past him (the self-imposed imperial duty to find scum)[/url]
    Unfortunate result of me caring less.[

    God, if I do nothing else this game, I'm glad I'm able to give some older MTGS players some nostalgia <3. And I love that their trying to analyze *****.

    I've been liking Tom's recent posts. In fact I'm just going to say Tom is town. I guess he could be a real tryhard, but probably just town.

    Looking at my old games gives me more confidence in my ZDS meta, swore I had reasons for those.

    I'm up to about 1000 atm
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Sweet, I was a little worried I'd get lynched before I got a chance to post, didn't realize there was 24 hour twilight.

    I no longer think Jack is scum; I remembered town reading Jack in Prison but I didn't remember why. I thought it was smack-me-in-the-face obvious towniness but it was more of a tone, unsure of himself but trying to figure things out kinda thing. His flip on me this game was a little weird, but his explanations aren't crazy, and I'm not sure scum even would want to change their stance on me at the stage he did; he was at a comfortable place to be the townie-of-reason there. I guess he could be worried about TMI, but as scum it's easier to just defend your original position there than make a weird 180. Small chance of being scum, but I don't think this is where to look D2.

    Haven't looked at recent posts yet, really rethinking my scumlist and I'm kinda motivated atm.

    (Obligatory apologies for playing like garbage, I am town, I'm not the type to BS this kinda thing to waste everybody's time.)
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Shrugs sorry, but I do.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »
    Can we stop with martyrdom?

    Sorry, didn't expect Jack to offer himself as well, I didn't want that to happen.

    At the very least, don't nolynch.

    Quote from Jackrito »

    I just realized this how is Umani your top town. Your notes do not make it sound that way espically her stance on you.

    Having Grape that high also makes little sense bases off your comments on Me. I would expect Grape to be same as Tom or lower not higher. A lot of these reads make no sense based off the comments

    I have a lot of conflicting reads tbh, part of why I was having trouble catching up. Umami's interaction with my wagon is slightly strange, but I've had gut-town vibes from her posts.

    There've been a few posts by Grape that's I've liked. His meta read on Umami is more likely to come from town. His push on you feels more focused than Tom's as well. Tom (as well as most of the others in the neutral block) have made many posts that could easily be scum or town posts.

    The notes were just looking at my wagon, whereas my reads were more holistic.

    Quote from LW »
    I agree that ZDS is just not someone I want to lynch, and this has very little to do with me agreeing with your read, and more so how you presented it
    first it was, "because he was scum hunting" and then it was because "he is re-evaluating"

    Ugh I'm going to crazy saying how I think these two very related concepts, but you aren't the only one who sees these as different, so this may be genuine.

    Quote from GJ »
    My issue right now as I try to restart my brain, is that I don't really see a strong counter push for anyone other than ITF. Everyone has their one white wolf they are trying to hunt, but it doesn't seem like there is a real counterwagon opposition to ITF.

    It's making it difficult to find the scum on my wagon, because scum don't really need to do anything... they can just let it happen.

    Quote from GJ »
    Are you voting JAck right now?

    Haven't voted because I assumed I was the lynch, wanted to vote after I got my reads together and felt comfortable with them, but I never really got to that point. Even now, I'm worried that my strong scum-reads (Tubba and Jack) are just low hanging fruit, which is a fine place to look D1 but less good on later days.

    Quote from Tom »
    @itf difference between grapes jack posts and my jack posts?

    Grape's points stuck out more in my head.

    Quote from Rodemy »
    to be fair, i skimmed the pages until something pops out, i avoid long walls and stuff because i don't have the attention span to read them. I do it either alignment.

    Sadly, I believe you.

    Quote from Axel »
    Like Shadow! This is still pretty bad. After all this time, he comes back with a readlist, and...that's it. I mean, the readlist is fine to do, and even appropriate when you're way behind, but I expected something else/more.

    I think shadow's readlist is very meh as well, but I don't think there's enough content there to lynch him now. Something to look at D2 when he's really caught up.

    Quote from Shadow »
    If you’re town, fight to live, it’s a lot harder to find scum pushing a mislynch when the lynchee ties the noose.

    u right

    Quote from Shadow »
    Jack/ITF both town, both conceding their own lynches, and because of that we chain lynch them.

    This is making me paranoid that Jack's town as well. I want to be doubly sure Jack is scum before I push a wagon on him, need to reread the parts in Prison that made me gut-town there.

    Quote from Rod »
    vote Tom this is a real scumread.

    so I have a thing, 9 out of ten, when people answer questions directed at other people, they are scum.

    I caught someone in overwatch mafia doing this and I’ll be damned if I stop now.

    I've done this a few times as town, but my brain isn't quite following the chain of events.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Haven't read the books, but I should be the lynch regardless. There'll be too many question marks with my slot if I live, so I'd rather get lynched now than later.

    On Rod, I read parts of Prison, some more than others, don't remember the part you're talking about. But it's a fair point that Rod is the type to miss stuff like that. Bleh.

    Axelrod is fairly gut, unvoting me on 735 seemed somewhat premature. Come to think of it he maybe should be light red rather than red.

    Tubba has a few things. His vote coming into the game didn't feel right. After that, he didn't do much other than question Rhand on a fairly obvious joke post, and didn't really try to push his scumread. Didn't comment on my wagon either, which although Grapefruit sorta did the same thing, Grapefruit was actively going after his scumread. #779 was a better post, but his points on me seem like trying to look better after I get lynched. It's not trying to stop the wagon really, it's more saying he has a bad feeling about it.

    I've agreed with Grapefruit's points on Jack. Also haven't had the same gut-town read on him as Prison.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Mostly written for myself to keep track of what happened with my wagon. Half of it was written intending to become a post, but it's sorta half formed.

    Rod's vote on Vaimes was pretty meh, and his reversal from Axelrod to me didn't feel genuine. Like, I can understand reading someone's analysis and changing one's mind, but I find it very strange that he didn't read Axelrod's pbpa until his vote on me if he was scumreading Axel.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives

    Gentleman Johnny


    current gut reads. I hate how much neutral I have, but I don't feel confident right now.

    Lw's moved down because I can't figure out his reactions to my wagon. I liked Grapefruit's points on Jack.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    I felt your vote on me was reasonable. I don't have a super solid read on you, but I don't think your interaction with my wagon was bad.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    notes are pretty incomplete, but may as well dump them.

    ITF - 7 (Killjoy, ZeDorkSlipeur, Rhand, Axelrod, Gentleman Johnny, Lastwhisper, Rodemy)

    Vaimes, Tom, and Jack gave tacit approval for my wagon as well.

    Shadow and M+/Sloth are absent.

    Tubba never gave a stance on me until recently

    Umami gives a light town read on me before my wagon starts, but never talks about me again. Later, in 652, she quickly gives her town and scum reads, but doesn't put me in either list.

    Grapefruit doesn't give a stance on me (other than saying that he can't figure out why Jack had a gut-town read on me)

    The last three votes on me (GJ, LW, and Rod) were ALL voting Axelrod before moving onto my wagon.

    LW, Jack, and to a lesser extent Rodemy listed me as seeming town before voting / supporting my wagon.
    What strikes me as wierd is I didn't feel Axelrod's pbpa on me particularly good, yet a lot of people seemed convinced by it. I'm obviously biased, but a lot of it was based on me not explaining myself. It wasn't awful, but it a slam dunk case either (Axel himself admits this).

    GJ votes me immediately after the case, despite having his vote on Axel previously. TBF, he had me/axel/Jack as his "there likely scum here" pile, and his read on Axel seemed to be more based on Axel not providing effort rather than Axel being actively scummy. If either flips scum, I would take a look at the other; GJ prodding Axel then unvoting when Axel provides content could be s/s.

    LW's vote is strange.

    540 he seems to change his mind midpost. He starts off disliking Axel's wall, then agreeing with all of the points. It's especially weird because he had me as town up until this, and I don't understand what about Axel's post changed that. like look

    Quote from LW »
    if you read Prisoners, I still agree this is a good reason to see ZDS as town, but definitely not strong

    feels like an afterthought to explain a read, that was probably just TMI

    If he agrees that the reasoning is good... how is that TMI? I can see not agreeing with my reasoning, that's fine, but he seems to simultaneously agree with my reasoning and not see it.

    LW strikes me as the type of player that always says what's on top of his head (main reason I've been town reading him), but this makes no sense.

    With Jack, it's extremely similar. Saying I'm likely town, then changing their mind after reading Axel's post.

    Tom and Vaimes say my wagon is fine which is... well fine. It's passive, but I can understand the feeling of being okay with a wagon but not having super strong feeling one way or another.

    Tubba doesn't comment on me, just responds to a question.

    Grapefruit doesn't really comment on me, but seems to have a much stronger scumread on Jack.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Quote from Axelrod »
    Why do you say that?

    There are points where I would be able to keep up, but I know myself well enough at this point that I know there will be days that I don't have enough energy to spend making perfectly explained posts.

    I'm not faulting GJ or KJ or anyone for grilling me on it, it's understandable to have a slight scum reaction on reads you don't understand, and I'm not trying to make an excuse, I should be held accountable.

    Quote from ZDS »
    I'm not swayed one way or another by ITF's matter-of-fact explanations, they say nothing about his intent. I was expecting something like this to happen regardless of his alignment (because it often does, with any player) and I expect the wagon-analysis to be a lot more telling.

    This is the reaction I was expecting, kinda surprised Axel unvoted me.

    Quote from ZDS »
    1) Why did you go from "I like that ZDS is scumhunting and am not interested in lynching him today." (#270) to "I think ZDS is town because he is reevaluating his reads. " (#274)? They aren't the same at all.

    To me, they are very similar. "Scumhunting" is somewhat vague, so I tried to expand on what it was about your scumhunting that I liked.

    Quote from ZDS »
    2) Why not mention the meta basis behind 274 until after you've been pushed, and why not actually explain it until after you've been pushed some more?

    Honestly, I didn't realize it would be necessary. I know that sounds silly now, but at the time I thought the second post was enough to give why I thought what I thought.

    Quote from ZDS »
    3) Why single me out? I understand why you would townclear Whispy and Umami, they are/were controversial figures, but that wasn't the case for me at all. And it's not like you've been liberally throwing town reads all over the place, aside from me (and to a degree your vote on shadow) you have only expressed opinions on a very limited number of then-controversial figures.

    Because it stood out to me, my feelings on other players weren't solid enough at time.

    Quote from LW »
    why didnt you claim?

    Claims are for when we're sure we want to lynch, as a last resort before that point.

    Quote from LW »
    this isn't a case of explaining it later, its the case of your read changed which doesn't show a natural progression

    Um, no? My read never changed.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Sorry people, I can't focus.

    I didn't claim because my wagon was bad, and my claim wasn't going to change anything, but at this rate the game just needs to move on.

    I'm the WorldGod, vanilla town.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Matter Mafia -- End Game: Sursamen Survives
    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    @ITF how much experience do you have in forum mafia and in person mafia? You obviously have a grasp on the concepts but your reply to GJ made me think you haven't actually played much online.

    I've played quite a bit online, but not in like ~5 years. Granted, I preferred playing on sites that are way more casual than this one, but I've played a few games here as well.

    Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »

    ITF town read on me rings like he knows my alignment and is putting the cart before the horse. There is no reason to single me out for changing my mind, other players have done it too and I only did it once so far.

    The meta argument is a little better, but easy to fake especially since all he has to do is parrot Rhand while pretending it was his own idea all along. Speaking of which, "I like that ZDS is scumhunting" (270) is not the same as "I think ZDS is town because he is reevaluating his reads" (274 and on), and NEITHER of these hint at an underlying meta read. Ergo I'm calling bull*****.

    Scumhunting, reevaluating reads, and meta reads are 100% related... I have no idea how you don't see a connection between those three. In Prison, you dug into Flarg... and didn't reevaluate when information changed (trying to lynch claimed Vig D2). Here, you gave initial pressure to LW, and despite the fact that the LW wagon was gaining progress, you switched tacks to Umami. Why would ZDS do it? Scum!ZDS may have done because he thought that's what Town!ZDS would do, but based on what I saw from the previous game, I thought it was more likely that Town!ZDS saw something that changed his mind. Ergo, my read that this is more likely Town!ZDS than Scum!ZDS. Is this reasoning 100% full-proof? No, of course not, but at the time you had a vote or two on you, and I wanted to express that ZDS was less likely to be scum this game (and therefore not interested in lynching you unless more info comes out) so we can focus on other things.

    My read was never "don't lynch ZDS ever", it was "don't lynch ZDS today". I'm allowed to have reads that aren't absolute, it's D1.

    Quote from Rodemy »

    I don’t like ITF’s obvtown read of jack. Nobody was obv town that game.

    Lol hard disagree. I thought Flarg was clearly town as well... though tbf I thought your slot was likely scum.

    Quote from Rhand »

    I have played with them but I can’t remember the meta.

    I remember Winterfell mafia we were on a scumteam together. Our scummate got lynched D1 and I was cop'd N3 or so, but you rode a doc claim to endgame. There was likely another game we were in together but I don't remember.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    He says three things here, and kind of undercuts himself twice: (1) Doesn't think Last is particularly scummy BUT (here is a scummy thing I would like him to explain. (2) I think ZDS made a decent point on Umami BUT (it is also weak and I don't agree with this other thing). And (3) Thinks ZDS is scumhunting and is not interested in lynching him (which is not quite the same thing as saying he thinks ZDS is Town).

    So, this is self-meta, but I doubt myself a lot more as town. A lot of times I try to explain my thought process, but I just don't know anything, especially this early. I usually express my views more clearly when I'm scum because it's not hard to do, and people ask less questions. My gut was telling me LW and Umami were both likely town, and for newer players I prefer following my gut, but at the same time LW's vote on you was strange.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    It's a tiny bit strange that ZDS is the one he singles out here as not wanting to lynch when he apparently disagreed with both ZDS's main conclusions to that point (on LW and then on Umami)

    He then will explain in #274 that it is actually ZDS's reversal on LW which is making him like ZDS - his re-evaluating of his reads. I don't think that's an especially good reason to town-read someone, but, YMMV.

    I felt that ZDS's drive was correct, as in at the time when he made his votes LW and Umami had done things scummy enough to warrant votes in the early game. I liked ZDS's rethought on LW because my thoughts were very similar as I was reading the thread; LW seemed scummy early, but later posts made me rethink it. In addition to this feeling different than last game, it was enough for me to be looking elsewhere for scum.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    He then votes Shadow for Shadow's very first post/vote of the game, saying it was the "scummiest" vote on LW. I think that represented the third vote on Shadow (Vaimes, Rhand, ITF). Doesn't say what he felt was scummy about it, except that he's saying he now thinks LW is likely Town - ergo, vote the "scummiest" vote against the person you think is Town. I do not know who else may have been voting for LW and why they said they were (except ZDS did at one point, and ITF did not think that was scummy).

    Rhand and ZDS were voting LW at that point (so Shadow was the third vote iirc). Both were more or less starting the wagon, and in general I don't find votes to get out of RVS scummy unless they are quite bad. Votes building on those wagons can be. I didn't have a good place to put my vote at the moment, and I wanted to see more from Shadow.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    He then indicates willingness to follow a wagon onto Tubba. Which is...okay? as a thing to throw out there, but would maybe be better with some explanation.

    I mean, sure, but the alternate was not posting at all. I had just finished my earlier post.

    I didn't like Tubba's vote because it didn't seem like it was trying to view things from LW's eyes; it was more seeing LW doing something strange and voting him for it.

    Quote from Axelrod »

    Could be someone who's just overwhelmed by it all, I suppose, but I don't feel like - in this game so far - there's been anything to get overwhelmed by.

    It's more that I know I won't be able to keep up... which makes me feel kinda poopy.

    Quote from Lastwhisper »

    their thoughts on Jack are just as bad, his thoughts don't actually say much
    My post on Jack says literal nothing, I don't even know why I posted it.

    [quote]if you read Prisoners, I still agree this is a good reason to see ZDS as town, but definitely not strong

    feels like an afterthought to explain a read, that was probably just TMI

    You aren't the only one to bring up TMI, but I still don't quite get this. I gave a read and explained myself later... this is a very common thing to happen in a game of mafia. If my reasoning that I gave later doesn't make sense in the context that it was originally given, sure, that would be bad. Nobody seems to think that, just that I didn't explain it upfront.

    Quote from Axelrod »
    It’s so not a good idea to try and make connections between players like that this early. Aside from it being a bad idea, I just don’t do it. So you probably shouldn’t read too much into that.

    TBH I agree with this. Too many variables to figure that kinda stuff out right now.

    Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »

    ITF, what are your opinions on how other players relate to you or your wagon? For example, did anyone ping you for having bad reasons for voting you, or for not voting you, or for looking like they are testing the waters, and so on?

    I'm going to respond to everything before getting to this, but the main thing weird about my wagon is that it's a lot of just tacit approval, rather strong reads that I am scum.

    Quote from Jackrito »
    Their stance on seeing me as a confirmed town in prison, and ZDS as scum early feels like them trying to give off air that they are good at mafia.

    Sorry, wasn't my intention, I was off on plenty of stuff that game.
    Posted in: Mafia
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