I have no problem with them changing things in the game. It's what they do. I do have a problem with them changing something with the game that needs to be fundamentally uniform. That would be the card backs.
Yes...I can include the checklist card in my deck and swap stuff out appropriately. I shouldn't have to do that in order to make a non-marked deck though. What if I don't have the checklist card in a draft?
I will have 9,000 of them for constructed...if I buy packs or boxes, but who does that anymore outside of draft where you're forced to?
Can I still include my odd-looking, double sided card in the deck? Isn't it marked now?
They don't force you to have an appropriate token card to represent it on the board...how many zombies have I seen representing thopters or saprolings? You can use dice or pennies if you want. Not so without the "checklist" card and day/night cards.
How many 3/3 beast tokens do you see around typically? Or 0/1 Eldrazi Spawn? The checklists will be just as common as those, and then some, because they'll be provided in bulk to local game stores to provide to players playing in drafts and such.
It will totally change the way people draft, because people wont be drafting this set for this very reason: You arent supposed to see any cards going around a draft table.
Out of 264 cards, 20 of them are flip cards. Only 20.
You're putting too much emphasis on this. You're acting like every other card is going to be a flip card.
And remember, other players being able to see THOSE cards also means YOU'RE able to see THOSE cards as well. It doesnt ruin any sort of balance. Its not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
As I have said before...The only part about this that really upsets me is the number of times I inadvertently purchase semitransparent sleeves. It's a bit of a paranoid thing for me, but I could see myself getting into a bit of trouble far down the road, you know? Like, years from now if one of these cards becomes ridiculously good in some Legacy/Modern deck or something and we're well past the point where everyone has checklist cards coming out of their ears from drafting and the ilk...I will buy the last pack of sleeves available at a store right before a tournament, and I will see the smiling back-face of every double-sided card in my deck.
I think, down the road, the checklist cards will be as common (if not moreso) as older tokens. If anything, they'll be less than dirt cheap, seeing as they'll not only be as common as tokens in packs, but will also be provided in bulk by wizards to local game shops.
okay... so you are drafting, and there are split cards, and people can see the backs of those split cards when you are selecting cards to put into your deck. That sort of defeats the purpose of drafting (where people arent supposed to know what you are pulling). Do I really need proof to know that cards with anything other than the standard magic back will change this?
As for curving out... I had sealed (not drafting) in mind when I made that statement. You could get some god awful card pool that gives you little to play until turn 4. If the other player drops any flip card before then, you are going to be at a serious disadvantage (on top of already having a crappy card pool to begin with).
The purpose of drafting is not to pull cards without people seeing them, its to test your actual deckbuilding skills by giving you a semi-randomized pool of cards to make a deck out of on the fly. Other players seeing a single card is not going to totally change the way players draft. Besides, you're allowed to physically hide your cards, just not anywhere beneath or away from the table.
As for sealed, thats just the luck of the.. draw? That's the point of a randomized pool. There's just as much a chance of you getting a good pool of cards as you getting a horrible pool.
Also...isn't forcing someone to play with opaque sleeves kind of a slap in the face? Oh...can't play with penny sleeves...marked card. Can't play with clear sleeves...marked card.
Gotta play with opaque sleeves for part of your requirements to play this game.
Doesn't matter if 99% of the people in Magic play with sleeved cards or not...it forces you to do so in draft...and they have to be opaque...which cost a little more than clear ones sometimes.
Draft and want clear penny sleeves just as a little protection for the three or four games you're playing before sleeving them properly? Now not an option to you anymore.
For the billionth time, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH OPAQUE SLEEVES. Use the checklist card they provided for you. Thats why they made them.
I know no one actually cares what I think or have to say about this, but its not going to stop me from *****ing.
This is really a terrible choice by WotC. As already mentioned, drafting is going to be a $^&* with this set, which is quite possibly the worst thing that wizards could have done. I mean who buys more packs than a bunch of card shop kids who prefer to draft to get desired cards from a new set? No one is going to want to draft this set, which means the sales of single packs is going to be significantly less than in any other set since drafting was established.
I absolutely hate the proxies (outside of competitive testing), and would never want to put a proxy card in my deck. Now if I want to avoid proxies, I have to buy sleeves? WTF Wizards!?! Now I am not saying that I dont use sleeves, but I wouldnt expect someone else to buy them. And what happens in 2 years when I want to run one or two of these flip guys in extended? Are there going to still be those proxy cards available? Am I going to have to buy them in addition to my actual cards?
And more bad news for limited, what happens when someone drops a flip creature turn 2-3 and you dont have anything in your sealed deck that fits into that mana curve? Suddenly your opponent has a token generating 3/3 for 2 mana just because you are stuck with a clunky card pool.
No sir, I dont like it.
EDIT: my solution would have been to just print split cards like Crime // Punishment
What proof do you have that this will do horrible in drafts?
Also, you choosing to not under any circumstances use the checklist cards is YOUR problem, NOT Wizards. They went through the trouble of making it easier to play with, and by not taking advantage of it, you're only making it difficult for yourself.
Draft is a nightmare because of this...having to a)cover your card when you draft it and/or b) get a checklist card is a pretty clear indicator that you have a flip card.
There's also a pretty solid chance that only a few of these will be draftable and therefore you are hinting pretty strongly at your colors, that is if someone didn't see the other side of the card.
Morbid is smart, Curse auras are okay, Fight is.....well bearable. Flip cards, terrible idea, I am disappointed.
You know how to solve this problem? You cover up your cards, like you're supposed to.
Besides, its open information. It isnt cheating if you see the backs of these cards, and you can just get a small handful of checklist cards before you start the draft in preparation.
I'm no longer confused and it definitely 'works' but it still feels awkward. I absolutely hate the idea of the checklist cards and after a while wrestling with taking cards in and out of their sleeves will speed up the wear and tear, so I'm more inclined to get two playsets of Transformers I want and just have the sleeved transformed faces on the side (like the fusion monsters in Yugi-Oh... oh god.) That's assuming I'm not using penny sleeves. Basically I just don't want to look at the checklist or any other proxy. I'm not sure if anyone else shares this sentiment.
I think you're making this a lot more difficult for yourself than it needs to be. They made the checklist cards for a reason, so that you wouldnt have to do this.
You can do what you want, but I suggest you just suck it up and memorize what your transform cards do and just sleeve the checklists. It makes things infinitely easier.
Putting penny sleeves on your dual-sided card isnt a bad idea either if you're worried about your card getting worn out from either being exposed or being flipped in and out of the sleeves.
I was talking about casual for the pro point I made; guess I should of clarified that. I was thinking EDH and not about cards you play in multiples. Good point you made though.
Thanks for clarifying the cons. Open information is open information I suppose. Not a fan myself.
Yeah it kinda sucks, the open information, but really, who actually hate-drafts? Seeing the back of someones non-hidden flip card is just like seeing/hearing someone glee over a foil Gideon or Chandra.
I think having double sided cards is silly. People will know the card in your hand now if you arn't playing with sleeves.
For the millionth time, you use the heavily provided checklist cards in your hand and library, and bring in the actual dual-sided card in when you cast it as if it were a token (though it isnt an actual token.)
I usually have no problem with new mechanics, but I'm going to come right out and say I think these double-faced cards are a terrible idea. I mean Arabian Nights almost had a different card back, and most players hated that idea. Double-faced cards have the potential to cause way more problems than a different back would. Not saying I'm not going to quit over this, I just don't like it.
What problems would this create that cant be fixed?
How many 3/3 beast tokens do you see around typically? Or 0/1 Eldrazi Spawn? The checklists will be just as common as those, and then some, because they'll be provided in bulk to local game stores to provide to players playing in drafts and such.
Out of 264 cards, 20 of them are flip cards. Only 20.
You're putting too much emphasis on this. You're acting like every other card is going to be a flip card.
And remember, other players being able to see THOSE cards also means YOU'RE able to see THOSE cards as well. It doesnt ruin any sort of balance. Its not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
I think, down the road, the checklist cards will be as common (if not moreso) as older tokens. If anything, they'll be less than dirt cheap, seeing as they'll not only be as common as tokens in packs, but will also be provided in bulk by wizards to local game shops.
I stopped reading here.
Your problem. Seriously.
Notice how at the top of the checklist it says "You can mark this card to represent a double-faced card in your library or hand."
The purpose of drafting is not to pull cards without people seeing them, its to test your actual deckbuilding skills by giving you a semi-randomized pool of cards to make a deck out of on the fly. Other players seeing a single card is not going to totally change the way players draft. Besides, you're allowed to physically hide your cards, just not anywhere beneath or away from the table.
As for sealed, thats just the luck of the.. draw? That's the point of a randomized pool. There's just as much a chance of you getting a good pool of cards as you getting a horrible pool.
For the billionth time, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH OPAQUE SLEEVES. Use the checklist card they provided for you. Thats why they made them.
What proof do you have that this will do horrible in drafts?
Also, you choosing to not under any circumstances use the checklist cards is YOUR problem, NOT Wizards. They went through the trouble of making it easier to play with, and by not taking advantage of it, you're only making it difficult for yourself.
You have a deckbox? Keep them in there, or hidden within your sideboard if you have one.
You know how to solve this problem? You cover up your cards, like you're supposed to.
Besides, its open information. It isnt cheating if you see the backs of these cards, and you can just get a small handful of checklist cards before you start the draft in preparation.
These allow for the cards to do MUCH more. More room for more text.
I think you're making this a lot more difficult for yourself than it needs to be. They made the checklist cards for a reason, so that you wouldnt have to do this.
You can do what you want, but I suggest you just suck it up and memorize what your transform cards do and just sleeve the checklists. It makes things infinitely easier.
Putting penny sleeves on your dual-sided card isnt a bad idea either if you're worried about your card getting worn out from either being exposed or being flipped in and out of the sleeves.
Yeah it kinda sucks, the open information, but really, who actually hate-drafts? Seeing the back of someones non-hidden flip card is just like seeing/hearing someone glee over a foil Gideon or Chandra.
For the millionth time, you use the heavily provided checklist cards in your hand and library, and bring in the actual dual-sided card in when you cast it as if it were a token (though it isnt an actual token.)
What problems would this create that cant be fixed?