Ratchet Bomb should be in your sideboard period. Slows Frites way down, deals with token hordes, and is a 2-mana answer to Entreat the Angels.
The white version of WRR (with DOJ/Terminus) is much more suited to beating miracles.dec. I played against a deck like that last FNM and stomped it, despite having Entreat cast against me four times during that match. If you don't have DOJ handy, Slag+Whipflare works in a pinch.
If control in particular is giving you fits, try playing two Cavern of Souls. Just two.
No one at my LGS plays Frites and there are hardly any token decks, maybe one or two. I'll get a few Ratchet Bombs if I see Miracle decks (or Frites or Tokens) gaining popularity around my area. I wont be playing any variant of ramp aside from the GR version, I like it more and already have everything for it. I would play two or three cavern of souls if more control was played, but my local meta is mainly aggro decks so they aren't worth more colorless land.
Last FNM I was 2-0 and then lost to a Miracle deck pretty badly. Do you guys think Miracle decks will become popular? I saw two people playing them and one of them made top 8.
My downfall was Tamyio + Gideon, and then he top decked Entreat the Angels.
After he countered all my titans I had nothing to save me. Game two I used thrun to almost kill him but his Gideon kept it away from him for the most part.
What do I do against this kind of deck? Here's the list I ran:
Well he not only did win the 8 Rouds Straight, he won the PTQ.
But the Player himself said that he played it for 2 Weeks on a Cruise over to Barcelona and he still lost a game because he didn´t Dissipate an Avacyns Pilgrim who was the 6th Card on the enemys Field.
I just think it is a very good Deck in the Hands of the right player but not made for the wide masses.
The entire Canadian team + Adam Yurchik played this deck, and only one of them posted a record of better than 6-4-0, and that was Hayne who went 6-3-1 including an ID. I guess overall, he went 9-3 with that deck.
Small nitpick, Huntmaster is good against control decks. He forces them to do somthing other than hold up counter mana/removal. Plus he is 2 bodies to wolf run.
Turn three/four Huntmaster:
Opponent's answers on your turn: doom blade, go for the throat, mana leak, dissipate, or snapcaster mage + any of the preceding.
Opponent's answers on his turn: black sun's zenith, or any of the above.
Late game huntmaster:
Control wants the game to go long, so late game it will hardly when karn, lilana, consecrated sphinx, grave titan, wurmcoil engine ect... are staring you down.
So, he does force them to do something. And when they do ... then what?
Not playing thrun because of image abilities is like not playing Geist of Saint Traft because of image abilities. Turn three thrun + kessig is a 6/4 trample hexproof on turn 4. That's better than Geist, and it can keep getting bigger and bigger as the game goes on because you play more lands each turn.
Also not playing thrun because it can be removed is like not playing P. titan because of doom blade and go for the throat. Anything can be removed, it isn't a reason to not play the card.
Plus, think about this: They cast an image to kill thrun. That's one last copy of one of your titans to worry about, one less copy of a captain to worry about, one less copy of a reanimated sun titan to worry about, ect.
You still have 3 Thrun, 4 Primeval Titan, 4 Inferno Titan, and 2 Green Sun's Zenith to get the green guys out.
I feel like these changes are not where you want to take the deck. You have more titans and less ramp than most ramp decks--that's not a winning strategy.
Also, Kessig Wolf Run is not something you want multiples of, so you might want to only play 2-3. Getting a Wolf Run on line by turn 4 isn't that important because you can't dump your mana into it anyways. Usually after a Primeval Titan is when you start to think about Wolf Run.
I honestly don't see why everyone loves Huntmaster in WRR so much. He is good against aggro decks, and so is slagstorm and whipflare. He isn't good against control decks, neither is slagstorm and whipflare. So every time you want him in your deck you're going to have sweepers...great idea.
Anyways:
The deck list I posted was just an example list I came up with. Changes can be made like taking a few titans out and adding in more ramp. It all depends on what you want to do of course.
As for Kessig, I don't see why you can't dump your mana into it any time.
Drawing Multiple Titans or Huntmasters is usually a pretty good thing.
Drawing Multiple Thruns are not.
You cant pressure as much with only 1 thrun.
Of course drawing multiple titans is good, and multiple huntmasters are good depending on the board state.
Drawing multiple thruns isn't that big of a deal, if they can answer the current one then you just lay down the one in your hand. Same thing with Geist of Saint Traft, Mox Opal (just like mana flooding), and other legendary cards.
Thrun + Kessig = a lot of pressure, on turn 4 its a 6/4 trample hexproof, turn 5 its a 7/4 trample hexproof, ect. If you don't need to regenerate him at all and if there's no blockers then it is a turn 6 win. Same time as P. Titan + inkmoth but with thrun you don't have to worry about most of the popular removal. And if you do need to regenerate him then you still should be winning on turns 7 - 8.
Think about this: If you're on a turn 6 clock that will be hard to stop you're going to try and slow it down, right?
Well when this happens you're going to be loosing most of your blockers because of Kessig + Thrun. So for the Thrun Run Ramp deck your thrun is going to be killing at least a few creatures per turn if you're playing against aggro.
Lets say you are able to answer thrun before you die, how are you going to answer the other 13 titans in the deck that they will most likely have by the time you kill thrun? (The other 3 Thrun, 4 Primeval Titan, 4 Inferno Titan, and 2 Green Sun's Zenith to act as extra copies of Thrun and Primeval.)
Well, youre not running solemn which slows your ramp considerably.
Also, tapping all you're mana to pump thrun leaves you soft to day of judgement.
If you feel that they have a DoJ then you can leave two mana untapped to regenerate thrun.
I don't want solemn here, the plan is this:
Turn 1 Land
Turn 2 Land -> Cast a ramp spell.
Turn 3 Land -> Cast Thrun
Turn 4 Land -> Pump Thrun with Kessig
Turn 5 Land -> Pump Thrun or cast a titan (depending on the situation)
Turn 6 and on...ect.
It slows down the turn four titan plan by one turn by only casting a ramp spell turn two. And with 11 turn two ramp spells (4 Rampant Growth, 4 Sphere of the Suns, 2 Green Sun's Zenith, 1 Birds of Paradise) it wont be hard for that to happen if you draw Thrun early.
If you don't get Thrun then you're plan is to just ramp into a turn 4/5 titan, I've casted turn four titans off of two rampant growth/sphere of the suns before many times. The lack of solemn wont be that big of a deal most of the time.
“Thrun Run Ramp” is a mild variation of the typical GR wolf run ramp deck that I’ve been testing recently. The main goal is turn three Thrun, the Last Troll and to have a Kessig Wolf Run on the battlefield before turn four. If you do this they will be on a very fast clock and will have to throw blockers in front of Thrun very quickly to stay alive. Because Thrun is so hard to remove it will be a challenge for most decks to answer him in time.
As you can tell the full titan package is still in the deck. If you do get a turn three thrun and start trampling over for large amount of damage then you’re rarely going to be casting things with your mana. This means by the time they answer thrun (if they can) you’re going to have near seven cards, and most likely a titan or two. What are the chances that they will have an answer to multiple titans after answering thrun? I’ll say slim to none.
The good thing about this variant is that it isn’t the end of the world if you don’t draw thrun at all. You still have the full titan and ramp package to keep pressure on your opponent. Another thing about this variant is that is greatly helps our match up against UB/x control without hurting our mana base with 3 - 4 Cavern of Souls or hurting our other match ups at all.
I don't even like including the Birds. 50% of the time you won't get to untap with it and that hurts just as much as having your T2 Rampant Growth get hit with Mana Leak. I can understand the lure of keeping it, just to have 10 T2 ramp options, but I've grown bitter on mana dorks in general. Also, Pillar of Flame totally invalidates any thought of running Viridian Emissary, even in an aggro-heavy meta. The best answer now is hitting your T4 Titan and fetching up Glimmerposts.
I rarely have had my Birds killed because most removal that hits birds will be saved for inkmoth.
It sounds like your meta is just full of Wolf Run so you must be thinking EVERYONE is playing Wolf Run elsewhere as well. I personally play Wolf Run and at FNM I run into a lot of things: I run into around the same amount of the Mirror as I do U/W/x Delver or W/u Humans, and there are still other people playing U/B Zombies, UB/x Control, RG Aggro, W/x Tokens, and more. So please don't think that Wolf Run is completely dominating the format, with the release of Cavern of Souls it will have an increase but I don't think it will be more than 35% of any large event (PTQ, GP, ect.)
No one at my LGS plays Frites and there are hardly any token decks, maybe one or two. I'll get a few Ratchet Bombs if I see Miracle decks (or Frites or Tokens) gaining popularity around my area. I wont be playing any variant of ramp aside from the GR version, I like it more and already have everything for it. I would play two or three cavern of souls if more control was played, but my local meta is mainly aggro decks so they aren't worth more colorless land.
My downfall was Tamyio + Gideon, and then he top decked Entreat the Angels.
After he countered all my titans I had nothing to save me. Game two I used thrun to almost kill him but his Gideon kept it away from him for the most part.
What do I do against this kind of deck? Here's the list I ran:
7 Forest
6 Mountains
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Ghost Quarter
//13 Creature:
4 Primeval Titan
4 Inferno Titan
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Slagstorm
4 Rampant Growth
2 Green Sun's Zenith
//7 Instants:
3 Beast Within
4 Galvanic Blast
//4 Artifacts:
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Traitorous Blood
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Act of Agression
2 Whipflare
1 Beast Within
If these decks become popular I'll be running 4 Beast Within in the main deck, and some ratchet bombs in the side board.
Any other ideas on how t combat this deck?
What?
The PTQ? You mean the PT right?
Yeah, winning a pro tour is unspectacular.
Why? You want to be drawing them by turn three.
Turn three/four Huntmaster:
Opponent's answers on your turn: doom blade, go for the throat, mana leak, dissipate, or snapcaster mage + any of the preceding.
Opponent's answers on his turn: black sun's zenith, or any of the above.
Late game huntmaster:
Control wants the game to go long, so late game it will hardly when karn, lilana, consecrated sphinx, grave titan, wurmcoil engine ect... are staring you down.
So, he does force them to do something. And when they do ... then what?
Of course. Thrun dies to:
Phantasmal Image
Phyrexian Metamorph
Black Sun's Zenith
Lilana of the Veil and a few other sac cards.
Thrun doesn't die to:
Tragic Slip
Doom blade
Go for the throat
Day of Judgment
Creatures
Burn Spells
ect.
Not playing thrun because of image abilities is like not playing Geist of Saint Traft because of image abilities. Turn three thrun + kessig is a 6/4 trample hexproof on turn 4. That's better than Geist, and it can keep getting bigger and bigger as the game goes on because you play more lands each turn.
Also not playing thrun because it can be removed is like not playing P. titan because of doom blade and go for the throat. Anything can be removed, it isn't a reason to not play the card.
Plus, think about this: They cast an image to kill thrun. That's one last copy of one of your titans to worry about, one less copy of a captain to worry about, one less copy of a reanimated sun titan to worry about, ect.
You still have 3 Thrun, 4 Primeval Titan, 4 Inferno Titan, and 2 Green Sun's Zenith to get the green guys out.
I honestly don't see why everyone loves Huntmaster in WRR so much. He is good against aggro decks, and so is slagstorm and whipflare. He isn't good against control decks, neither is slagstorm and whipflare. So every time you want him in your deck you're going to have sweepers...great idea.
Anyways:
The deck list I posted was just an example list I came up with. Changes can be made like taking a few titans out and adding in more ramp. It all depends on what you want to do of course.
As for Kessig, I don't see why you can't dump your mana into it any time.
Of course drawing multiple titans is good, and multiple huntmasters are good depending on the board state.
Drawing multiple thruns isn't that big of a deal, if they can answer the current one then you just lay down the one in your hand. Same thing with Geist of Saint Traft, Mox Opal (just like mana flooding), and other legendary cards.
Thrun + Kessig = a lot of pressure, on turn 4 its a 6/4 trample hexproof, turn 5 its a 7/4 trample hexproof, ect. If you don't need to regenerate him at all and if there's no blockers then it is a turn 6 win. Same time as P. Titan + inkmoth but with thrun you don't have to worry about most of the popular removal. And if you do need to regenerate him then you still should be winning on turns 7 - 8.
Think about this: If you're on a turn 6 clock that will be hard to stop you're going to try and slow it down, right?
Well when this happens you're going to be loosing most of your blockers because of Kessig + Thrun. So for the Thrun Run Ramp deck your thrun is going to be killing at least a few creatures per turn if you're playing against aggro.
Lets say you are able to answer thrun before you die, how are you going to answer the other 13 titans in the deck that they will most likely have by the time you kill thrun? (The other 3 Thrun, 4 Primeval Titan, 4 Inferno Titan, and 2 Green Sun's Zenith to act as extra copies of Thrun and Primeval.)
========================================================
Please test the deck guys, and thanks for the input.
If you feel that they have a DoJ then you can leave two mana untapped to regenerate thrun.
I don't want solemn here, the plan is this:
Turn 1 Land
Turn 2 Land -> Cast a ramp spell.
Turn 3 Land -> Cast Thrun
Turn 4 Land -> Pump Thrun with Kessig
Turn 5 Land -> Pump Thrun or cast a titan (depending on the situation)
Turn 6 and on...ect.
It slows down the turn four titan plan by one turn by only casting a ramp spell turn two. And with 11 turn two ramp spells (4 Rampant Growth, 4 Sphere of the Suns, 2 Green Sun's Zenith, 1 Birds of Paradise) it wont be hard for that to happen if you draw Thrun early.
If you don't get Thrun then you're plan is to just ramp into a turn 4/5 titan, I've casted turn four titans off of two rampant growth/sphere of the suns before many times. The lack of solemn wont be that big of a deal most of the time.
This is the list I’m currently testing:
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Kessig Wolf Run
5 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Primeval Titan
4 Inferno Titan
1 Birds of Paradise
//10 Sorceries:
4 Slagstorm
4 Rampant Growth
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Beast Within
//4 Artifacts:
4 Sphere of the Suns
As you can tell the full titan package is still in the deck. If you do get a turn three thrun and start trampling over for large amount of damage then you’re rarely going to be casting things with your mana. This means by the time they answer thrun (if they can) you’re going to have near seven cards, and most likely a titan or two. What are the chances that they will have an answer to multiple titans after answering thrun? I’ll say slim to none.
The good thing about this variant is that it isn’t the end of the world if you don’t draw thrun at all. You still have the full titan and ramp package to keep pressure on your opponent. Another thing about this variant is that is greatly helps our match up against UB/x control without hurting our mana base with 3 - 4 Cavern of Souls or hurting our other match ups at all.
What do you guys think of this variation?
I rarely have had my Birds killed because most removal that hits birds will be saved for inkmoth.