So I'm playing LoamGiftsRock, and he's playing Domain. Game one went pretty well, and Game 2 was shaping up to be fine, until this...
There was land and creatures in the graveyards, and both of us had a Goyf.
0:04:01 [Proph] Proph plays Path to Exile from Hand
0:04:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Kitchen Finks to RFG from Play
0:04:11 [Proph] <Proph> res
0:04:12 [Proph] Proph taps Sacred Foundry
0:04:13 [Proph] Proph taps Hallowed Fountain
0:04:14 [Proph] Proph plays Lightning Helix from Hand
0:04:20 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
0:04:21 [Proph] Proph's life total is now 14 (+3)
0:04:22 [Proph] Proph puts Lightning Helix to Graveyard from Play
0:04:23 [Proph] Proph puts Path to Exile to Graveyard from Play
0:04:26 [Proph] Tarmogoyf is now 3/4
0:04:27 [Proph] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:04:28 [PopePaul] Proph taps Wild Nacatl
0:04:28 [Proph] Proph taps Wild Nacatl
0:04:29 [PopePaul] Proph taps Qasali Pridemage
0:04:29 [Proph] Proph taps Qasali Pridemage
0:04:29 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Wait!
0:04:29 [PopePaul] Proph taps Tarmogoyf
0:04:30 [Proph] Proph taps Tarmogoyf
0:04:30 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Wait!
0:04:36 [Proph] <Proph> k
0:04:53 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> unfortunately, lol, you can't kill Goyf with an instant like that...
0:05:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Helix goes to GY, then SBEs are checked...and Goyf is a 3/4
0:05:13 [Proph] <Proph> i said res...res = response
0:05:19 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> doesn't matter
0:05:22 [Proph] <Proph> no damage is resolved
0:05:29 [Proph] <Proph> then the card hits the graveyard
0:05:38 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> as part of the resolution of a spell, it's put into the graveyard
0:05:50 [Proph] <Proph> no damage is resolved
0:05:56 [Proph] <Proph> then card goes to yard
0:06:00 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> then State-Based Effects are checked
0:06:05 [Proph] <Proph> right
0:06:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Goyf is a 3/4 with 3 damage on it.
0:06:11 [Proph] <Proph> so damage...then check
0:06:20 [Proph] <Proph> damage = death
0:06:23 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> no
0:06:31 [Proph] <Proph> lol yes
0:06:41 [Proph] <Proph> i deal lethal damage
0:06:42 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> State-Based Effects see a 3/4 with 3 damage and don't care
0:06:51 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I can get the relevant rules if you like
0:06:55 [Proph] <Proph> for sure man
0:07:11 [Proph] <Proph> cause i have been playing with goyf for over a year
0:07:28 [Proph] <Proph> and never had a judge rule that lethal damage does not kill a creature
0:07:32 [Proph] <Proph> lol
0:07:50 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> People have known about this interaction with Goyf for years
0:07:59 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> If a judge told you differently, he told you wrong
0:08:25 [Proph] <Proph> damage is dealt...then the card goes to yard...has always been that way
0:08:42 [Proph] <Proph> card does not go to yard and then resolve damage
0:08:53 [Proph] <Proph> sorry man if you got wrong info too
0:09:37 [Proph] <Proph> are you going to search for a land?
0:10:24 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
Didn't these issues get known by all and wide like 2 years ago?
That's not that amazing, really. I saw one guy win a game by equipping one of the Swords to a Sak-Elder, and beating face FTW. I've also seen Birds with Swords and/or hammers go for the win. Sounds like Quietus Spike just accelerates the kill.
How does Deft Duelist help at all? I don't get it.
It's a 2/1 that will kill most of Vampire and R/X decks major threats without dying itself, and has shroud, so they can't make it go away. Personally I think it's a meh idea, but I haven't tested it, so don't take my word on it.
That's what I thought he meant but it kind of screws up your own deck. Maybe against a fog deck but any other deck there are just better cards. Duress is way better against control.
D'OH! Yes, I meant Secrets...shows what I get for not double checking the deck list...
And I see what you're saying about the anti-synergy in the deck. But there have been times when it has won me games simply because I get to live through my next draw step; let's face it, this deck does a number on it's own library.
Quest for Ancient Songs buys you the turns you need if you've spent too many turns with too many Howling Mines in play, rapes Mill, and allows the deck (although one should never really need it...) to go infinite. It also allows you to turn 1 resolved Open the Vaults (come on, if you can't get an OtV to resolve just once against mill, then you don't know how to play) into GG against mill.
Quote from xfollowthereaperx »
Duress is a great addition but most of the time you won't need it unless they pack a relic or pithing needle (counters too!), which both massivly hurt this deck. I'm planning on playing just one Into the Roil mainboard for a mainboard answer to pithing needle or whatever might come across my path and a Martial Coup isn't a bad idea.
How has one Jace been going for you? I can see your version running low on cards a lot of the time. I personally use Jace as a fog and not for mill (who uses it for mill in Time Sieve?) Many players will attack Jace with their creatures so I just +2 it almost every turn against aggro. Of course this is usually against bad players.
I have been occasionally finding myself running out of steam after the first few turns if there isn't a Howling Mine or a Jace sticking around, but the cycling cards help with that. I've won games at 1 life several times that I had no business winning because of various random cards I've drawn.
And quite frankly, I don't count on Jace being a fog...I wish I could, but they choose which to attack, and in the early game (when they're more likely to kill Jace in my experience) I'd rather keep Jace around and take the damage, whereas in the mid-late game, it's the other way 'round. I know burn spells can be sent to him, but it's rarely relevant for me.
And I'm used to using Jace for mill because I came from UG Walk Hard, where it felt more reliable then making Beasts and swinging. Maybe I was just playing wrong/stupid, but I didn't pursue the Jace strategy to the exclusion of Red Zone kills. I agree that Tezz is a better win condition, but don't discount the Hulk. His ability to cycle has dug me out of more than one hole, just by virtue of drawing that one card I need to win.
And Martial Coup is a 7-mana Wrath that gets better the later you draw it. I'm almost never sad to see it in any hand.
On a side note, I wonder if Esper Charm wouldn't be a bad card in the Side board, or even main deck. I've been having a lot of trouble with O-Ring lately, and it also deals with Luminarch, as well as potentially allowing us to shred the opponent's hand, allowing us to go off...just a thought.
Keep in mind this is all from MWS, so take my testing with a grain of salt.
I don't see why this combo deck with black can't use the card every combo deck with black has used since 1999. It costs the same as Silence (one colored mana, whether it's B or W) and can conceivably do more than Silence; Silence only protects you for that turn, but if you Duress the threatening card out, they can't cast it ever. With Silence, they just have to wait until you take a Time Walk effect. I also think this deck should move away from the Jace-mill you strategy, and focus even more on Hulk and Tezz beats. Maybe that's just how I played it previously, but between opposing QfAS, and other mill strategies becoming potentially dominant, people are going to be packing the means to do away with putting their library in their graveyard. Winning through the red zone works, or so I hear. I also fell in love with Martial Coup. That card has taken me from "I'm gonna lose" to "Ooops, I win!" so many times. I think that one Conquerer's Pledge is a terrible replacement while we still have Coup.
You know you've played too much Magic when you're listening to Eminem/Dr. Dre's "Say what you say" and this lyric: I'm a Giant and I ain't gotta move 'til I'm evoked
and you think "WTF? Giants don't get evoke..."
Got two that just happened right in a row...sad,really...
<-------- New Game Started -------->
[FR] Grom's Security Code: C7C037F3 [Type 2]
PopePaul's Security Code: FB27D7CF [Type 2]
It is now turn 1 ([FR] Grom)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<PopePaul> Hey
<[FR] Grom> Hello
[FR] Grom rolled a 20, using a 20 sided die
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die
PopePaul shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul shuffles library
<[FR] Grom> pl
PopePaul shuffles library
PopePaul draws 7 cards
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom draws 7 cards
<PopePaul> I'll keep
<[FR] Grom> kp
[FR] Grom plays Plains from Hand
[FR] Grom taps Plains
[FR] Grom plays Figure of Destiny from Hand
It is now the End Phase, Cleanup Step
<[FR] Grom> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (PopePaul)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
PopePaul draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
<PopePaul> End my turn
<System> Player Lost
PopePaul vs Joel [3/2/2009 1:25:33 PM]
0:00:00 [PopePaul] <New Game: waiting for opponent>
0:00:00 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:00 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Yatta!
0:00:00 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 0 cards
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:00 [Joel] <Joel> Bring it.
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel draws 0 cards
0:00:00 [Joel] <-------- New Game Started -------->
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel's Security Code: 1AA6AD94 [???]
0:00:00 [Joel] PopePaul's Security Code: FB27D7CF [Type 2]
0:00:00 [Joel] It is now turn 1 (Joel)
0:00:00 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:00 [Joel] <Joel> hi
0:00:01 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Hey
0:00:01 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:02 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:02 [PopePaul] PopePaul rolled a 14, using a 20 sided die
0:00:03 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:04 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:05 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:06 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:06 [Joel] Joel rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die
0:00:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:08 [PopePaul] It is now turn 2 (PopePaul)
0:00:08 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I'll Play
0:00:10 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:11 [Joel] Joel draws 7 cards
0:00:11 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 7 cards
0:00:12 [Joel] <Joel> kp
0:00:17 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I'll keep
0:00:20 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
0:00:21 [Joel] <Joel> ok
0:00:21 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:00:27 [Joel] It is now turn 3 (Joel)
0:00:27 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:28 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:28 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:00:28 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:35 [Joel] Joel plays Savage Lands from Hand
0:00:37 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:00:39 [PopePaul] It is now turn 4 (PopePaul)
0:00:39 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:40 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:00:40 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:00:41 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:41 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:00:41 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:44 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
0:00:46 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:00:53 [Joel] It is now turn 5 (Joel)
0:00:53 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:54 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:00:54 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:00:55 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:56 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:00:56 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:58 [Joel] Joel plays Treetop Village from Hand
0:01:03 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:01:04 [PopePaul] It is now turn 6 (PopePaul)
0:01:04 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:05 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:01:05 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:07 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:01:07 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:14 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Fetid Heath from Hand
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Fetid Heath
0:01:17 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Stillmoon Cavalier from Hand
0:01:19 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:01:25 [Joel] It is now turn 7 (Joel)
0:01:25 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:26 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:01:26 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:27 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:27 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:01:27 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:28 [Joel] Joel plays Swamp from Hand
0:01:35 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:01:36 [Joel] Joel taps Swamp
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now Creature Land
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 0/0
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 1/1
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 2/2
0:01:39 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 3/3
0:01:40 [Joel] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:01:41 [PopePaul] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:01:41 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:01:42 [PopePaul] PopePaul's life total is now 17 (-3)
0:01:48 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:01:49 [PopePaul] It is now turn 8 (PopePaul)
0:01:49 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:50 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:01:50 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:52 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:52 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:01:52 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:56 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 2/2
0:01:56 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 1/1
0:01:57 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 0/0
0:01:57 [Joel] Treetop Village is now Land
0:02:06 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Reflecting Pool from Hand
0:02:09 [PopePaul] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:02:10 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:02:12 [Joel] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:02:14 [Joel] Joel's life total is now 18 (-2)
0:02:16 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:02:20 [Joel] It is now turn 9 (Joel)
0:02:20 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:21 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:02:21 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:21 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:22 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:02:22 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:02:25 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:02:26 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:02:27 [Joel] Joel plays Fertile Ground from Hand
0:02:28 [Joel] Fertile Ground is enchanting Swamp now
0:02:32 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:02:39 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Reflecting Pool
0:02:39 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:02:40 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:02:42 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Esper Charm from Hand
0:02:48 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 2 cards
0:02:52 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Esper Charm to Graveyard from Play
0:02:53 [PopePaul] It is now turn 10 (PopePaul)
0:02:53 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:54 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:02:54 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:56 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:02:56 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:01 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Sunken Ruins from Hand
0:03:04 [PopePaul] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:03:04 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:03:08 [Joel] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:03:14 [Joel] Joel's life total is now 16 (-2)
0:03:15 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:03:31 [Joel] It is now turn 11 (Joel)
0:03:31 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:03:32 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:03:33 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:35 [Joel] Joel plays Mountain from Hand
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Swamp
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Fertile Ground
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Mountain
0:03:43 [Joel] Joel plays Primal Command from Hand (pointing at my Arcane sanctum)
0:03:50 [Joel] <Joel> and search
0:03:53 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Cryptic Command from Hand
0:03:54 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:03:55 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Fetid Heath
0:03:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Reflecting Pool
0:03:56 [Joel] Joel is looking its Library...
0:03:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Sunken Ruins
0:04:03 [Joel] Joel puts Cloudthresher into play from Library
0:04:05 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:04:05 [Joel] Joel stops looking its Library...
0:04:10 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
There was land and creatures in the graveyards, and both of us had a Goyf.
0:04:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Kitchen Finks to RFG from Play
0:04:11 [Proph] <Proph> res
0:04:12 [Proph] Proph taps Sacred Foundry
0:04:13 [Proph] Proph taps Hallowed Fountain
0:04:14 [Proph] Proph plays Lightning Helix from Hand
0:04:20 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
0:04:21 [Proph] Proph's life total is now 14 (+3)
0:04:22 [Proph] Proph puts Lightning Helix to Graveyard from Play
0:04:23 [Proph] Proph puts Path to Exile to Graveyard from Play
0:04:26 [Proph] Tarmogoyf is now 3/4
0:04:27 [Proph] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:04:28 [PopePaul] Proph taps Wild Nacatl
0:04:28 [Proph] Proph taps Wild Nacatl
0:04:29 [PopePaul] Proph taps Qasali Pridemage
0:04:29 [Proph] Proph taps Qasali Pridemage
0:04:29 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Wait!
0:04:29 [PopePaul] Proph taps Tarmogoyf
0:04:30 [Proph] Proph taps Tarmogoyf
0:04:30 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Wait!
0:04:36 [Proph] <Proph> k
0:04:53 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> unfortunately, lol, you can't kill Goyf with an instant like that...
0:05:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Helix goes to GY, then SBEs are checked...and Goyf is a 3/4
0:05:13 [Proph] <Proph> i said res...res = response
0:05:19 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> doesn't matter
0:05:22 [Proph] <Proph> no damage is resolved
0:05:29 [Proph] <Proph> then the card hits the graveyard
0:05:38 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> as part of the resolution of a spell, it's put into the graveyard
0:05:50 [Proph] <Proph> no damage is resolved
0:05:56 [Proph] <Proph> then card goes to yard
0:06:00 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> then State-Based Effects are checked
0:06:05 [Proph] <Proph> right
0:06:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Goyf is a 3/4 with 3 damage on it.
0:06:11 [Proph] <Proph> so damage...then check
0:06:20 [Proph] <Proph> damage = death
0:06:23 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> no
0:06:31 [Proph] <Proph> lol yes
0:06:41 [Proph] <Proph> i deal lethal damage
0:06:42 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> State-Based Effects see a 3/4 with 3 damage and don't care
0:06:51 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I can get the relevant rules if you like
0:06:55 [Proph] <Proph> for sure man
0:07:11 [Proph] <Proph> cause i have been playing with goyf for over a year
0:07:28 [Proph] <Proph> and never had a judge rule that lethal damage does not kill a creature
0:07:32 [Proph] <Proph> lol
0:07:50 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> People have known about this interaction with Goyf for years
0:07:59 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> If a judge told you differently, he told you wrong
0:08:25 [Proph] <Proph> damage is dealt...then the card goes to yard...has always been that way
0:08:42 [Proph] <Proph> card does not go to yard and then resolve damage
0:08:53 [Proph] <Proph> sorry man if you got wrong info too
0:09:37 [Proph] <Proph> are you going to search for a land?
0:10:24 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
Didn't these issues get known by all and wide like 2 years ago?
I know, but I like that even less, somehow.
Thanks! Now I just have to get accustomed to the sounds it makes...
It's a 2/1 that will kill most of Vampire and R/X decks major threats without dying itself, and has shroud, so they can't make it go away. Personally I think it's a meh idea, but I haven't tested it, so don't take my word on it.
D'OH! Yes, I meant Secrets...shows what I get for not double checking the deck list...
And I see what you're saying about the anti-synergy in the deck. But there have been times when it has won me games simply because I get to live through my next draw step; let's face it, this deck does a number on it's own library.
Quest for Ancient Songs buys you the turns you need if you've spent too many turns with too many Howling Mines in play, rapes Mill, and allows the deck (although one should never really need it...) to go infinite. It also allows you to turn 1 resolved Open the Vaults (come on, if you can't get an OtV to resolve just once against mill, then you don't know how to play) into GG against mill.
I have been occasionally finding myself running out of steam after the first few turns if there isn't a Howling Mine or a Jace sticking around, but the cycling cards help with that. I've won games at 1 life several times that I had no business winning because of various random cards I've drawn.
And quite frankly, I don't count on Jace being a fog...I wish I could, but they choose which to attack, and in the early game (when they're more likely to kill Jace in my experience) I'd rather keep Jace around and take the damage, whereas in the mid-late game, it's the other way 'round. I know burn spells can be sent to him, but it's rarely relevant for me.
And I'm used to using Jace for mill because I came from UG Walk Hard, where it felt more reliable then making Beasts and swinging. Maybe I was just playing wrong/stupid, but I didn't pursue the Jace strategy to the exclusion of Red Zone kills. I agree that Tezz is a better win condition, but don't discount the Hulk. His ability to cycle has dug me out of more than one hole, just by virtue of drawing that one card I need to win.
And Martial Coup is a 7-mana Wrath that gets better the later you draw it. I'm almost never sad to see it in any hand.
On a side note, I wonder if Esper Charm wouldn't be a bad card in the Side board, or even main deck. I've been having a lot of trouble with O-Ring lately, and it also deals with Luminarch, as well as potentially allowing us to shred the opponent's hand, allowing us to go off...just a thought.
Keep in mind this is all from MWS, so take my testing with a grain of salt.
My ideas:
6 Island
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
2 Arcane Sanctum
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
Card Advantage: 12
4 Kaleidostone
4 Howling Mine
3 Duress
1 Jace Beleren
4 Time Sieve
4 Time Warp
4 Open the Vaults
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Quest for Ancient Songs
1 Martial Coup
Control/Keep Yo' Ass Alive: 8
4 Angelsong
3 Day of Judgment
1 Glassdust Hulk
3 Essence Scatter
3 Negate
3 Into the Roil
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Silence
1 Day of Judgment
1 Duress
I don't see why this combo deck with black can't use the card every combo deck with black has used since 1999. It costs the same as Silence (one colored mana, whether it's B or W) and can conceivably do more than Silence; Silence only protects you for that turn, but if you Duress the threatening card out, they can't cast it ever. With Silence, they just have to wait until you take a Time Walk effect. I also think this deck should move away from the Jace-mill you strategy, and focus even more on Hulk and Tezz beats. Maybe that's just how I played it previously, but between opposing QfAS, and other mill strategies becoming potentially dominant, people are going to be packing the means to do away with putting their library in their graveyard. Winning through the red zone works, or so I hear. I also fell in love with Martial Coup. That card has taken me from "I'm gonna lose" to "Ooops, I win!" so many times. I think that one Conquerer's Pledge is a terrible replacement while we still have Coup.
Just my...erm...$.05...
Of course, if they're more worried about Archive Trap, then they can just not search for PtE...
Troll: N., a person who posts inflammatory comments on the internet in order to piss people off.
Jerk: N. someone who just doesn't care if their comments piss someone off.
Which better describes the people on your forums?
Note: I have not explored GG.com's forums, I'm just posting this for the **** of it...
I'm a Giant and I ain't gotta move 'til I'm evoked
and you think "WTF? Giants don't get evoke..."
[FR] Grom's Security Code: C7C037F3 [Type 2]
PopePaul's Security Code: FB27D7CF [Type 2]
It is now turn 1 ([FR] Grom)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<PopePaul> Hey
<[FR] Grom> Hello
[FR] Grom rolled a 20, using a 20 sided die
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die
PopePaul shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
PopePaul shuffles library
<[FR] Grom> pl
PopePaul shuffles library
PopePaul draws 7 cards
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom shuffles library
[FR] Grom draws 7 cards
<PopePaul> I'll keep
<[FR] Grom> kp
[FR] Grom plays Plains from Hand
[FR] Grom taps Plains
[FR] Grom plays Figure of Destiny from Hand
It is now the End Phase, Cleanup Step
<[FR] Grom> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (PopePaul)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
PopePaul draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
<PopePaul> End my turn
<System> Player Lost
PopePaul vs Joel [3/2/2009 1:25:33 PM]
0:00:00 [PopePaul] <New Game: waiting for opponent>
0:00:00 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:00 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Yatta!
0:00:00 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 0 cards
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:00 [Joel] <Joel> Bring it.
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel draws 0 cards
0:00:00 [Joel] <-------- New Game Started -------->
0:00:00 [Joel] Joel's Security Code: 1AA6AD94 [???]
0:00:00 [Joel] PopePaul's Security Code: FB27D7CF [Type 2]
0:00:00 [Joel] It is now turn 1 (Joel)
0:00:00 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:00 [Joel] <Joel> hi
0:00:01 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> Hey
0:00:01 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:02 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:00:02 [PopePaul] PopePaul rolled a 14, using a 20 sided die
0:00:03 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:04 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:05 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:06 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:06 [Joel] Joel rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die
0:00:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:08 [PopePaul] It is now turn 2 (PopePaul)
0:00:08 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:09 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I'll Play
0:00:10 [PopePaul] PopePaul shuffles library
0:00:11 [Joel] Joel draws 7 cards
0:00:11 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 7 cards
0:00:12 [Joel] <Joel> kp
0:00:17 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> I'll keep
0:00:20 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
0:00:21 [Joel] <Joel> ok
0:00:21 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:00:27 [Joel] It is now turn 3 (Joel)
0:00:27 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:28 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:28 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:00:28 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:35 [Joel] Joel plays Savage Lands from Hand
0:00:37 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:00:39 [PopePaul] It is now turn 4 (PopePaul)
0:00:39 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:40 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:00:40 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:00:41 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:41 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:00:41 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:44 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Arcane Sanctum from Hand
0:00:46 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:00:53 [Joel] It is now turn 5 (Joel)
0:00:53 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:54 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:00:54 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:00:55 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:00:56 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:00:56 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:00:58 [Joel] Joel plays Treetop Village from Hand
0:01:03 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:01:04 [PopePaul] It is now turn 6 (PopePaul)
0:01:04 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:05 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:01:05 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:07 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:07 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:01:07 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:14 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Fetid Heath from Hand
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:01:15 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Fetid Heath
0:01:17 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Stillmoon Cavalier from Hand
0:01:19 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:01:25 [Joel] It is now turn 7 (Joel)
0:01:25 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:26 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:01:26 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:27 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:27 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:01:27 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:28 [Joel] Joel plays Swamp from Hand
0:01:35 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:01:36 [Joel] Joel taps Swamp
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now Creature Land
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 0/0
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 1/1
0:01:38 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 2/2
0:01:39 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 3/3
0:01:40 [Joel] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:01:41 [PopePaul] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:01:41 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:01:42 [PopePaul] PopePaul's life total is now 17 (-3)
0:01:48 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:01:49 [PopePaul] It is now turn 8 (PopePaul)
0:01:49 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:01:50 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:01:50 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:01:52 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:01:52 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:01:52 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:56 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 2/2
0:01:56 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 1/1
0:01:57 [Joel] Treetop Village is now 0/0
0:01:57 [Joel] Treetop Village is now Land
0:02:06 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Reflecting Pool from Hand
0:02:09 [PopePaul] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:02:10 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:02:12 [Joel] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:02:14 [Joel] Joel's life total is now 18 (-2)
0:02:16 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:02:20 [Joel] It is now turn 9 (Joel)
0:02:20 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:21 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:02:21 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:21 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:22 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:02:22 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:02:25 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:02:26 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:02:27 [Joel] Joel plays Fertile Ground from Hand
0:02:28 [Joel] Fertile Ground is enchanting Swamp now
0:02:32 [Joel] <Joel> End my turn
0:02:39 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Reflecting Pool
0:02:39 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:02:40 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:02:42 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Esper Charm from Hand
0:02:48 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws 2 cards
0:02:52 [PopePaul] PopePaul puts Esper Charm to Graveyard from Play
0:02:53 [PopePaul] It is now turn 10 (PopePaul)
0:02:53 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:54 [PopePaul] PopePaul untaps his/her permanents
0:02:54 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:56 [PopePaul] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul draws a card
0:02:56 [PopePaul] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:01 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Sunken Ruins from Hand
0:03:04 [PopePaul] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:03:04 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:03:08 [Joel] PopePaul taps Stillmoon Cavalier
0:03:14 [Joel] Joel's life total is now 16 (-2)
0:03:15 [PopePaul] <PopePaul> End my turn
0:03:31 [Joel] It is now turn 11 (Joel)
0:03:31 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:03:32 [Joel] Joel untaps his/her permanents
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:03:33 [Joel] Joel draws a card
0:03:33 [Joel] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:35 [Joel] Joel plays Mountain from Hand
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Savage Lands
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Treetop Village
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Swamp
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Fertile Ground
0:03:41 [Joel] Joel taps Mountain
0:03:43 [Joel] Joel plays Primal Command from Hand (pointing at my Arcane sanctum)
0:03:50 [Joel] <Joel> and search
0:03:53 [PopePaul] PopePaul plays Cryptic Command from Hand
0:03:54 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Arcane Sanctum
0:03:55 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Fetid Heath
0:03:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Reflecting Pool
0:03:56 [Joel] Joel is looking its Library...
0:03:56 [PopePaul] PopePaul taps Sunken Ruins
0:04:03 [Joel] Joel puts Cloudthresher into play from Library
0:04:05 [Joel] Joel shuffles library
0:04:05 [Joel] Joel stops looking its Library...
0:04:10 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
That was epic!