This is what I've been playing at my local store for the past couple months with varying amounts of success. I'll answer a few obvious questions that may pop up when reviewing the list.
Why only 3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?
Well to put bluntly, I only own 3. At the start I wanted to play with the full 4 like everyone else, but I recently did some testing with a few friends that play various different decks in the current standard meta and it turns out that Jace flooding is a lot worse than Jace deficit. Having a consistent T2 Jace every game did smooth out a lot of draws, but it also turns out that just having a Jace in and opening hand can lead to very greedy keeps which can then lead to game loses. Don't get me wrong, Jace is good. Jace is REALLY good, he just isn't quite as necessary as I'd like him to be.
Why only 3 Dig Through Time?
As with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, it is a strong card, but not one that I really want to see a lot of. Its a spectacular top deck and only gets stronger as the game progressed. It is just so clunky to see more than 1 in the opener.
Maindeck Negate?
A very strong card right now. Blue decks are really popular at my store and even the non-blue decks are running a lot of relevant non-creature spells that I just can't deal with if they resolve.
I would love any and all constructive criticism and input.
Just want to note how good Appetite for Brains is in the current meta, no matter where you are. A lot of you will call it a sideboard card at first, no doubt, but I've been testing it as a four-of maindeck and it has performed unbelievably well.
Not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for. It uses very little Gatecrash cards, but I think it could be good. And yes, before you ask, the list does contain a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
Want to know how playable you think this card is. Below are two lists of commonly used creatures. I left out the creatures that are targeted-removal-immune.
Dropping an Entreat on turn 5, hardcasted, doesn't win you the game. It's worse than Serra Angel. Entreat becomes completely lethal at 13 mana when hardcasted, and even more with chumb blockers or removal. Army, on the other hand, is always lethal at eight mana with three extra tokens. That's a big difference in power for the hardcasted version. Army also nets you two uses.
When miracled, Entreat is miles better. However, I don't like to build on the best scenario. I think that building on the average is more accurate. To get that Entreat on turn four or five or even six, when you have two in our deck... Well, let's say the odds aren't in your favor. The odds of having it in your starting hand or draw it too soon or too late are much greater.
Army is more consistent and resilient. Entreat has more variance and the power to block when cast and save your butt on turn five. These are the pros and cons. I prefer Army. Some will prefer Entreat. I don't think here actually is any good answer other than "depends on your playstyle". Maybe the best answer, given Slaughter Games, is one of each. I can't say.
Well, this is how i break down the two cards. I myself feel that Entreat the Angels is stronger.
Entreat the Angels
Pros: Insanely powerful when miracled, Can control amount of angels to create, Can cast on your opponent's turn if Miracled, Angels are big and have evasion, Angels ETB untapped
Cons: Less powerful when hardcasted, Seemingly dead in opening hand, Costs triple W to hardcast
Army of the Damned
Pros: Consistent CMC, Consistent number of creatures created, Has Flashback
Cons: Can't control amount of zombies to create, Zombies are small and don't have evasion, Zombies ETB tapped, Costs triple B to cast both from hand and from graveyard
Is this Reid Duke's list? If not, it's almost identical. I have been running this build for a couple of months but it never felt right. It was really good at answering threats but really poor at closing the game. Maybe it's because I'm a U/B Control player and I'm used to "if I survive the first 5-6 turns I've won the game" mindset, but I always felt that I lost games that I shouldn't have. After stabilizing it often became a matter of who top decked a monster or an answer, where normally you should be the favorite to win the game if you got to that point.
I also tried a couple of times to simply run out of win cons due to Ravings + the opponents answers. I don't know, I might have played the deck wrong.
If you're having an issue ending the game after stabilizing then stabilize with planeswalkers. They are very versatile in what they do and do different things at different points during the game. Late game? Lock down or win-con. Early game? Answering threats and acting as a fog or two. I run 10 in my list and have been happy with the results.
Here's what I've been running for a few weeks. It has performed very well against most of the meta. These are what matchups are generally like, of the decks I've played:
Delver Tragic Slip was a superstar in this matchup. Late game I would just run my planeswalkers into their counterspells then hit for a ton with Devil's Play or ate away at their life total with Stensia Bloodhall. If I could resolve a Curse of Death's Hold, the game was just over for them.
WRR
This match was a breeze. They can cast their fatties and ramp into making a huge Inkmoth Nexus but it was all really moot when their beat was tapped with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or got their 1 toughness Inkmoth Nexus hit with a Tragic Slip
GW Mid-Range
Had some trouble out-racing this deck. I tried to slow him down by killing his mana dorks, but it really made no difference. I think that this, by far, was my hardest matchup.
BR Vampires
Another deck that was hard to outrace. I am definitely considering adding a fourth Bonfire of the Damned to the sideboard for the trible swarm decks.
Guys thanks for all the different points of view. Loving the help.
So im thinking then -frosty, -1 mana leak, -2 fiend for 3 land. From the sb -1 frosty -1 graf move the o ring to sb and put in two devistation in mb. Sound good?
Here is a sample control shell that I've used in the past for UW:
The list is very focused on interacting with the board. If you don't want to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, you can try a third Gideon Jura or a third Oblivion Ring. Devastation Tide is a very unique card for a very unique deck, but not for a traditional UW Control deck, which is what you are aiming for. Try this list out, proxy up if you have to, and see how it runs. Make changes to it as you see fit, as it may help your play style and lead to better results. This list is based on how I play control and that's with lots of board interaction and less counter, especially with Cavern of Souls being played.
Less creatures, more cantrips, more planeswalkers. Creatures in general are bad. Run cards that just scream "I WIN THE GAME" instead of squishy, situational creatures like Talrand, Sky Summoner.
Sorry for the double post. Just play tested with 25 lands. And got flooded both times. Even with Ponder throwing them back in the pond. Moving to +2 Think Twice, -2 Lands.
It is true that a heavy land count will cause you to flood out some games, but you have to make your land drops because your deck shines mid-late game. It doesn't care about the early game. You have to run as many cantrips as possible to work against flooding. This means that you run 4 Ponder and 4 Think Twice. You will find yourself with more problems missing land drops with high cost cards in your hand than you would with flooding out. This is why you are able to run high cost cards that can auto-win when they stick. As a veteran control player for the past six years, my one word of advice is that you always want lands. Most of my control decks run 27 lands. To me, 25 is low.
I understand. I'm not so worried about countering creatures, because I can easily wipe the board with the doj and term. and if have to, flash with snap to caster doj. My reasoning for putting in the counters to keep my win cons alive against other removal.
Killing Wave, GftT, DB, DoJ, Bonfire. Occasionally, a creature not cast from Cavern will definitely catch the counter, depending upon its value during situations. However, I don't have a Elesh or a Consecrated. And I'd hate to trade for something thats going to rotate in less then 4 weeks.
If anything, I could drop 2 Dissipate, 2 Fiend for 2 think twice and 2 oblivion ring.
If you want a 3-drop creature that still fits the control shell I'd try running Fettergeist. He is simply amazing. He dispatches every 1-3 CMC aggro creature currently in the format. He can also get in for some good damage early if the board is empty. Dissipate is the counter you want to keep in the situation where you get a Tamiyo Emblem. A renewable counter that eats flashback spells and keeps creatures away from Unburial Rites is just nuts.
Edit: Not to bring budget into this thread, but after a quick look on Starcitygames, and Blackboarder, you can get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for pretty cheap. She's floating between 10-15 right now.
Is Elesh needed? The one copy of Dissipate seems out of place, also.
Are 27 lands really needed?
I would consider dropping Elesh and Dissipate for Oblivion Ring.
Finally, there could be matchups where Feeling of Dread is not useful. however, I can't think of any any creatureless control builds off the top of my head.
Single Dissipate: When Tamiyo pops and you get her emblem, you can just lock out an opponent with infinite counter.
27 Lands: You have to make a land drop every single turn for this deck to function.
Feeling of Dread: Alexander Hayne said himself that this card was essential for the deck to make it to late game. The deck functions better if you don't have to deal with many creatures to begin with. Anything short of Invisible Stalker, Geist of Saint Traft, Phyrexian Crusader, or Sword of War and Peace, you're coming out on top with this card. Delver is a bad matchup for this deck anyway, so its a given that it will come out G2 anyway.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Another card that is not so good for this deck particularly because of the number of wrath effects. She is a wrath effect in herself, but I'd rather pay between four and six mana for a wrath effect than seven for for a creature that makes you hesitate to wrath when resetting the board is the difference between life and death. This isn't really tap-out control anyway. You want to play spells on your opponent's turn.
Thought Scour: You need as many cantrips as possible so you can miracle on your opponent's turn. Milling yourself also helps increase the chance of drawing a miracle. In best cases you mill a Think Twice, Feeling of Dread, or a land. Worst case, you mill a miracle or two, but you run playsets of each, so what? This card can also be a win-con with a Tamiyo Emblem, which isn't a "Magical Christmas Land" kind of thing to happen.
Why only 3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy?
Well to put bluntly, I only own 3. At the start I wanted to play with the full 4 like everyone else, but I recently did some testing with a few friends that play various different decks in the current standard meta and it turns out that Jace flooding is a lot worse than Jace deficit. Having a consistent T2 Jace every game did smooth out a lot of draws, but it also turns out that just having a Jace in and opening hand can lead to very greedy keeps which can then lead to game loses. Don't get me wrong, Jace is good. Jace is REALLY good, he just isn't quite as necessary as I'd like him to be.
Why only 3 Dig Through Time?
As with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, it is a strong card, but not one that I really want to see a lot of. Its a spectacular top deck and only gets stronger as the game progressed. It is just so clunky to see more than 1 in the opener.
Maindeck Negate?
A very strong card right now. Blue decks are really popular at my store and even the non-blue decks are running a lot of relevant non-creature spells that I just can't deal with if they resolve.
I would love any and all constructive criticism and input.
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Negate
3 Scatter to the Winds
3 Anticipate
3 Dig Through Time
Sorceries(3)
3 Planar Outburst
Enchantments(6)
3 Silkwrap
3 Stasis Snare
Planeswalkers(3)
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures(6)
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Mage-Ring Network
1 Blighted Cataract
1 Blighted Steppe
3 Tranquil Cove
4 Prairie Stream
5 Plains
3 Island
3 Surge of Righteousness
3 Celestial Flare
4 Arashin Cleric
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Negate
Commonly played cards it hits:
Olivia Voldaren
Thundermaw Hellkite
Huntmaster of the Fells
Craterhoof Behemoth
Unburial Rites
Thragtusk
Hellrider
Aurelia, the Warleader
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Commonly played cards it misses:
Geist of Saint Traft
Snapcaster Mage
[CARD]
Loxodon Smiter[/CARD]
Ash Zealot
Deathrite Shaman
Strangleroot Geist
Dissipate
Thoughts?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=483818
Not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for. It uses very little Gatecrash cards, but I think it could be good. And yes, before you ask, the list does contain a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
2 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Thoughtflare
3 Ultimate Price
2 Magmaquake
2 Syncopate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Dissipate
Sorceries(8)
4 Pillar of Flame
1 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Devil’s Play
1 Rakdos Return
Planeswalkers(4)
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Snapcaster Mage
Lands(27)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Stensia Bloodhall
3 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Dissipate
1 Counterflux
2 Slaughter Games
2 Stensia Bloodhall
1 Ultimate Price
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dreadbore
Ultimate Price
What it deals with
Thragtusk
Craterhoof Behemoth
Stromkirk Noble
Ash Zealot
Thundermaw Helkite
Angel of Serenity
Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
Vampire Nighthawk
Blood Artist
Fiend Hunter
Hellrider
Zealous Conscripts
Silverblade Paladin
Restoration Angel
Sublime Archangel
What it doesn’t deal with
Olivia Voldarin
Huntmaster of the Fells/Ravager of the Fells
Deathrite Shaman
Armada Wurm
[CARD]Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
[/CARD]
Thoughts?
Well, this is how i break down the two cards. I myself feel that Entreat the Angels is stronger.
Entreat the Angels
Pros: Insanely powerful when miracled, Can control amount of angels to create, Can cast on your opponent's turn if Miracled, Angels are big and have evasion, Angels ETB untapped
Cons: Less powerful when hardcasted, Seemingly dead in opening hand, Costs triple W to hardcast
Army of the Damned
Pros: Consistent CMC, Consistent number of creatures created, Has Flashback
Cons: Can't control amount of zombies to create, Zombies are small and don't have evasion, Zombies ETB tapped, Costs triple B to cast both from hand and from graveyard
He can just run Faith's Shield and laugh at their spot removal.
If you're having an issue ending the game after stabilizing then stabilize with planeswalkers. They are very versatile in what they do and do different things at different points during the game. Late game? Lock down or win-con. Early game? Answering threats and acting as a fog or two. I run 10 in my list and have been happy with the results.
Delver
Tragic Slip was a superstar in this matchup. Late game I would just run my planeswalkers into their counterspells then hit for a ton with Devil's Play or ate away at their life total with Stensia Bloodhall. If I could resolve a Curse of Death's Hold, the game was just over for them.
WRR
This match was a breeze. They can cast their fatties and ramp into making a huge Inkmoth Nexus but it was all really moot when their beat was tapped with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or got their 1 toughness Inkmoth Nexus hit with a Tragic Slip
GW Mid-Range
Had some trouble out-racing this deck. I tried to slow him down by killing his mana dorks, but it really made no difference. I think that this, by far, was my hardest matchup.
BR Vampires
Another deck that was hard to outrace. I am definitely considering adding a fourth Bonfire of the Damned to the sideboard for the trible swarm decks.
Now, the decklist:
4 Think Twice
4 Tragic Slip
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Sorceries(8)
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Temporal Mastery
1 Devil’s Play
Planeswalkers(10)
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Jace, Memory Adapt
2 Curse of Death’s Hold
Creatures(4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Olivia Voldaren
Lands(25)
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Stensia Bloodhall
5 Island
4 Swamp
3 Island
Here is a sample control shell that I've used in the past for UW:
4 Think Twice
Sorceries(20)
4 Day of Judgment
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Temporal Mastery
2 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalkers(4)
2 Gideon Jura
2 Tamayo, the Moon Sage
Creatures(4)
3 Fettergeist
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Evolving Wilds
10 Plains
8 Island
The list is very focused on interacting with the board. If you don't want to run Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, you can try a third Gideon Jura or a third Oblivion Ring. Devastation Tide is a very unique card for a very unique deck, but not for a traditional UW Control deck, which is what you are aiming for. Try this list out, proxy up if you have to, and see how it runs. Make changes to it as you see fit, as it may help your play style and lead to better results. This list is based on how I play control and that's with lots of board interaction and less counter, especially with Cavern of Souls being played.
It is true that a heavy land count will cause you to flood out some games, but you have to make your land drops because your deck shines mid-late game. It doesn't care about the early game. You have to run as many cantrips as possible to work against flooding. This means that you run 4 Ponder and 4 Think Twice. You will find yourself with more problems missing land drops with high cost cards in your hand than you would with flooding out. This is why you are able to run high cost cards that can auto-win when they stick. As a veteran control player for the past six years, my one word of advice is that you always want lands. Most of my control decks run 27 lands. To me, 25 is low.
If you want a 3-drop creature that still fits the control shell I'd try running Fettergeist. He is simply amazing. He dispatches every 1-3 CMC aggro creature currently in the format. He can also get in for some good damage early if the board is empty. Dissipate is the counter you want to keep in the situation where you get a Tamiyo Emblem. A renewable counter that eats flashback spells and keeps creatures away from Unburial Rites is just nuts.
Edit: Not to bring budget into this thread, but after a quick look on Starcitygames, and Blackboarder, you can get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for pretty cheap. She's floating between 10-15 right now.
Single Dissipate: When Tamiyo pops and you get her emblem, you can just lock out an opponent with infinite counter.
27 Lands: You have to make a land drop every single turn for this deck to function.
Feeling of Dread: Alexander Hayne said himself that this card was essential for the deck to make it to late game. The deck functions better if you don't have to deal with many creatures to begin with. Anything short of Invisible Stalker, Geist of Saint Traft, Phyrexian Crusader, or Sword of War and Peace, you're coming out on top with this card. Delver is a bad matchup for this deck anyway, so its a given that it will come out G2 anyway.
Oblivion Ring: This is actually a bad card in this deck because of Devastation Tide
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Another card that is not so good for this deck particularly because of the number of wrath effects. She is a wrath effect in herself, but I'd rather pay between four and six mana for a wrath effect than seven for for a creature that makes you hesitate to wrath when resetting the board is the difference between life and death. This isn't really tap-out control anyway. You want to play spells on your opponent's turn.
Thought Scour: You need as many cantrips as possible so you can miracle on your opponent's turn. Milling yourself also helps increase the chance of drawing a miracle. In best cases you mill a Think Twice, Feeling of Dread, or a land. Worst case, you mill a miracle or two, but you run playsets of each, so what? This card can also be a win-con with a Tamiyo Emblem, which isn't a "Magical Christmas Land" kind of thing to happen.