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  • posted a message on UBg (sultai) control
    Quote from PhobosLobos »
    This thing sadly is far from Baleful Strix.
    If we get some sort of 2 colored Snow lands, it may be great.
    Otherwise not having deathtouch makes it awkward in a lot of MU's.


    Doesn't look like we are getting snow duals but Waterlogged Grove and Nurturing Peatland look pretty awesome and presumably until MH2 when the horizon lands come to Ally colors they are decent reasons to choose non-white blue based control decks. Maybe not though, the lifeloss is always a problem for control decks.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Goblins
    Those 'Horizon' duals (Horizon Canopy, modern Horizons etc) lands are great for us as well. I've had games where I drew all 4 copies of Ramunap Ruins and no other lands and still didn't feel like the pain was an issue since we are always the aggressor. Some number of Red Horizons are going to great.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from SuperSeed »
    I feel like we can fit 1 FOF in the deck max.


    Maybe - I really like FoF in light of everyone going Narset crazy though since FoF doesn't actually draw cards.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] Goblins
    Quote from SaltySips »
    No card draw attached, but removal gobbo is here!


    This is an excellent card. Excited for Gobbos again!
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on [Primer] Goblins
    Quote from Midn8Walker »
    Ladies and Gentleman,

    there we go - Goblin Matron spoiled for Modern Horizons.

    Love is in the air


    where are you getting your spoilers?
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Have you guys had the privilege of playing against Bant decks with Time Raveler yet? I guess it hasn't been very popular because I only ran into today for the first time since WAR.

    Anyways, without access to instant speed CoCo or Queller, they just can't do anything. It's hilarious actually, I had a guy draw 9 cards off tireless tracker and it never even felt close.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Yes, we can agree to disagree.

    Curious though about not recalling the milling; I can't ever remember a time when UW wasn't running at least 4 Path and 4 colorless lands that destroyed other lands. Before that colorless land was Field of Ruin, UW usually consisted of 4x spreading seas as well. My recollection of the era of Gideon of the Trials being introduced was that the only metric that mattered in paper was library count and online the important metrics were library count and clock.

    I think the tradeoff bearscape is referring to is the distinctly low count of basic lands in your list, not so much the 5th+ colorless land - many lists are running upwards of 9 basics and as low as 1 fetchable dual. The benefit of that is minimal damage from lands, minimal ETB tapped lands, minimal damage vs land hate cards like Blood Moon, Big Thalia, Arbiter, fulminator and importantly gives you the edge in Field of Ruin mirrors. I would dare to say that the reason why most people believe UW is as successful as it is is due in large part to it having an excellent manabase. Some pro players have gone as far as saying that stock modern UW has the best mana base of any constructed deck ever.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Yes, 2 Veto might a bit much but I just can't justify the second knot. So many decks are running maindeck nihil spellbomb or relic. I don't think the 2nd veto can be too much of a mistake, so I'll leave it for the the time being.

    As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.

    I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I think Dovin, Hand of Control might just be a better a Gideon of the Trials; The -1 is basically equivalent to the +1 on Trials even so far as them both being on 4 loyalty the turn you use it first, arguably the most important time since you will have more mana to work with on follow up turns. Imo, their main purpose is to buy a few turns until you can stabilize, and I would argue that Dovin is even better in that main function since the tax will also be buying you a little tempo some amount of the time. The main difference between them is that Dovin can't close out games or pressure planeswalkers. However I would argue that the static ability on Dovin outweighs this since UW doesn't really need to close out games, it just needs to not lose. The inability to pressure planeswalkers of Dovin is his greatest downside over Gideon, notably vs the different flavors of liliana decks (though there aren't many of them at the moment). Vs Jace decks the combination of opposing path to exiles and large number of instants/sorceries make an argument for Dovin being superior since he doesn't die to path and taxes said spells. In either case, I don't think Dovin nor Gideon are strong enough right now since the matchup where they are the strongest against (Shadow) is already a matchup we are heavily favored in.

    Here's my current list after testing many of the new cards:



    I've really been enjoying the 26th land (Blast Zone) and zero Opt/Serum. The biggest downside of that plan is that you can't really go heavy on snapcaster because drawing more than 1 of them in the first 10 cards is awful too often.

    The cards I don't like in the list are the 2cmc counterspells and Azcanta. Veto is narrow, logic knot is often dead early, leak is often dead late and Azcanta is a bit slow for the meta. Unfortunately without those cards we would just be really low on two drops and countermagic, so there aren't a lot of better options. I think you could play an Ancestral Vision over the Search and it would have much the same effect for less mana investment.

    2 Surgicals main seems a bit steep, but I expect to face a lot of Dredge/Pheonix/Tron and not a lot of burn, so I think I'll find utility for them in most matches.

    Depose is my pet card, not really a meta call. It finds a use against every deck, it's never amazing and it's never bad it's just always fine.

    The 5th fetch is there to facilitate an additional dual source and the 3rd hallowed fountain is to give more non-basic targets for fetchlands so we don't get too far behind on the path/field wars in mirror matches

    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    If you're interested in a 2 for 1 instant speed tutor, Gifts ungiven is a consideration similar to ignite the beacon. You may not get the exact 2 walkers you want but the flexibility to tutor reactive cards would likely make up for that.

    I've been trying to make the value-gifts package work ever since humans came on the scene when we started mixing up our Wrath effects but unfortunately it was just never good enough. The addition of the new planeswalkers may make it worth revisiting though since one the issues I had with it was using it to find a suitable pile of proactive cards; best usually being some mix of Jace, teferi, Azcanta, snap and/or cryptic.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    At least we can agree on one thing, Karsten is a saint for the game of magic lol

    I think you are misunderstanding me somewhere because by saying "for every hand you can come up with that needs a cantrip over a colorless land I can give you a hand where the reverse is true" it implies I value those cantrips when it's exactly the opposite; I think there are far more hands that want the colorless source over the cantrip, and I don't think it's close. It's especially not close if you change out veto/knot for cards like negate. It's actually my entire argument.

    You are also grossly underestimating how often keeping a hand based on your second land being either a colorless source or a cantrip matters. So much so that it makes me think you're either being dishonest or you're new to UW; you can't afford to spend your first few turns digging for lands and there are many keepable hands with a dual-source and a colorless-source where there are nearly zero keepable hands with only 1 land. This possibility is not reflected properly by your billions and billions statement; we're talking nearly 12% of the time you're going to see that 1/60 card difference by your second turn (when you could reasonably expect to cast a veto/knot) and about 7% of the time that colorless/cantrip is going to be accompanied by no other lands in the opener. Those are not numbers that should be ignored.

    That being said, I think that Veto might be enough stronger than negate that this risk may be worthwhile.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Unless the blue marble does something other than be a blue marble, like say draw a card or scry, or that not all the blue marbles are the same and exist outside of a hypergeometric vacuum.

    If you read back a little further you'll see that I suggested that in order to play a 26 land version I would cut all Serum/Opt in favor of Heiroglyphs. Losing out on the scry absolutely does hinder your ability to cast colored spells.

    You're also not considering how many hands with a fetch (or any dual) plus a colourless land are keepable, of which there are many. Every time you add a colorless source, those combinations go up. So while adding a single colorless source in place of a spell doesn't change the odds in a hypergeometric vacuum, the game of magic isn't played in such a vacuum.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from Bearscape »
    As long as you still run 14 white sources, running 26 lands with 6 colorless sources does not make Dovin's Veto any harder to cast than if you had 25 lands with 5 colorless sources


    This math only accounts for paying a specific Mana cost on a specific turn;it doesn't account for wanting to play multiple spells in a turn cycle. Whenever you open on 2x colorless lands and a veto/absorb/logic knot you're going to have a hard time casting on curve or trying to double-spell.

    You also didn't account for celestial colonnade and glacial fortress; those numbers assume X untapped sources, which is not the case in a 4x colonnade deck - most lists run around 7-9 untapped white sources, not 14.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    How good to do we think Blast Zone is in UW Control?


    Conceptually it seemed good and in practice it's been even better. I played a few matches with 26 land, 4 Field 2 blast zone and it performs pretty well. Mind you I stay away from cards like absorb and I might be more inclined to lean towards negate over veto running 6 colorless sources.

    I will be testing it out some more, but I'm having fun running the Teferi Pool version currently. Fun is about all though, I'm not winning very much with it.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Yes, so it's a 1 sided hard lock. It's pretty interesting to me. I read the guys tournament report and he doesn't seem all to familiar with the deck, and some of his card choices for a combo-control deck seem subpar. Given those two things, I would say that with some tuning and more experience the deck could be a real contender. My only caveat would be that a lot of his success might have also been to his fortunate pairings and the fact that his opponents likely didn't know what was going on. Not sure if a better build and more experience can overcome those two other aspects, but I intend to give it a try.

    I would look to cut the non 3cmc walkers and the absorbs for remands and look to include opt over Serum; the ability to opt in response to your opponent trying to get the best card out of the pool is invaluable. This will allow you to play knowledge pool earlier. It could also be the case that you want to cut cards like detention sphere so that slamming a pool on 6 is less likely to lead to a blow out in desperate times if you flip your own sphere to it. Hero of Dominaria is similar.

    Posted in: Control
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