I supposedly do not know what I am talking about...
1) You think a 6/6 flyer for 6 that has the ability to draw 1+ cards if you want to spend mana on it isn't a bomb in limited.
2) You think that more than half the time in a limited game of a core set, you won't have at least one permanent on the board (or they'll have some of the completely non-existent graveyard hate).
So no, I don't think you have any clue what you're talking about. In fact, I know that you have no idea what you're talking about. 4/4 flyers for 5 with some even slight upside (Serra Angel, Murder of Crows, etc.) are undeniable bombs - a 6/6 flyer for 6 is even better.
If the pace of this set is anything other than glacial you're not going to get away with paying 13 mana to draw two cards.
I mentioned liliana? thoughseize? abrupt decay? What about spell snare and counterspells in general? Please stop man. I mentioned other decks other than Living End. More than 3 other decks that are problematic for Bogles. Just stop. Please.
The match that's going on right now is showing how amazing counterspells in general are at not dealing with the Bogle deck.
But since you've just quoted the post where I said it's not about Bogle you're clearly having even more trouble reading my posts than you allege I'm having reading yours.
Welcome to Modern, where after a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, we finally have a diverse format. You can't always be prepared for every deck. Some decks will always have bad matchups against other decks. So it comes down to metagaming - which is what Reid did here and why he's getting rewarded.
Metagaming to the point where your opponents barely get to play Magic seems ridiculous.
Thats why your mainboard is already decent against GR or Affinity. Your numbers are awfully skewed for the sake of your argument btw.
Also I feel like I'm repeating myself to someone who won't hear me out not because he doesn't understand what I'm saying but because he refuses to. I have already mentioned more than once that there are already decent answers to Bogle in the MB and the sideboard options are actually quite good. Pyroclasm, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. etc. already do well against other decks too.
Because it's not specifically about Bogle, it's about that we shouldn't be okay with reducing Modern to Rock Paper Scissors with twenty different throws instead of three.
Saying things like Living End crushes Bogle is just illustrating the problem, not alleviating it.
Again, I need to emphasize that many answers to Bogles are also answers to other decks in the format. It would be one thing if you needed very narrow and specific answers to handle the matchup. But if you know that Bogles beats sacrifice effects through Leyline, then a card like Maelstrom Pulse becomes a great choice for your deck or board. It's good in a variety of matchups and targets multiple aspects of the Bogles strategy. The same goes for stuff like Hallowed Burial, Smallpox, Living End and a variety of other cards. I'm repeating myself a lot, but this repetition seems to be needed in our conversation.
Cards like Pulse and Burial are going to get you killed against faster decks like GR or Affinity where you normally wouldn't be dead if you were playing cheaper cards like Supreme Verdict.
Gaining 20% against one deck isn't worth it when you lose 10% against 90% of the format.
Well from my experience from playing Magic recently. It's what the games slowly and gradually becoming. Sucks sometimes. Doesn't other times. But if you want Modern to be a deck that isn't that, you will need to ban a lot of decks out. Storm is still good despite bans. Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Melira/Kiki Jiki Pod probably all need to go if you want a format like that.
Twin and Pod lists have a limiting factor in that they all require creatures to combo off, and every deck in Modern should (and basically does) have a plan to interact with creatures that aren't untargetable, meaning that even decks that aren't directly tuned to beat them can still play a game of Magic against them.
Bogle is more like Storm where if you don't have a specific set of answers somewhere in your 75 you're just dead.
Why not? Isn't that what the sideboard is for? Are you even playing Magic? Your sideboard is for you to win your unfavorable match ups. No sideboard can deal with all decks in the meta. You need to be smart and choose your sideboard according to how you read the meta... Seriously the people that are hating on Bogles right now aren't even thinking. This is not an insult by any means. I just want to find someone who has a decent argument against Bogles that has actually played against the deck and with the deck.
I'm not sure how reducing Modern to a gigantic game of "do you have it" is playing Magic.
I agree that it is a frustrating mechanic to lose to. Because you really are just losing to Wizards as much as you are losing to the player who was smart enough to bring the deck. But again, I think that posters need to see how this sort of deck opens up metagame space for Modern and design space for Wizards. Smallpox, Death Cloud, Ensnaring Bridge, and Terminus all become much, much better cards as a result of this finish. Yes, some of those cards are missing some supports to be used effectively (Terminus losing Preordain is a notable one). But others like Bridge and Smallpox were strong, niche choices even before Bogles, and Reid's finish just makes them even better. I really do think that this will open up a lot of space for the format to grow, even if it feels quite cheesy today.
Shifting the game back to whether or not you decided to sideboard the four cards that turn a 20% matchup into an 80% matchup isn't a healthy direction to take a format.
Firstly, you're making way too much out of the statement that "Fetches slow down T2 too much". This is an issue, but not a prohibitive one. It is absolutely not in any way something that prevents them from being in T2. It's just an issue that T2 has to be designed for.
Secondly, please call it Standard, not T2. That's what it is.
Thirdly, your logic basically means it would be impossible to ever reprint Onslaught fetches. Because you say they can't print new cards in Modern via MM, but they can't reprint fetches in Modern via Standard, because it's too slow. And that's just a silly position.
Fourthly, it's especially silly when they've already stated they're interested in doing the full 10 cycle of such lands now since people want both allied and enemy color pairs.
Thus, unless they NEVER REPRINT FETCHES EVER, INCLUDING ZENDIKAR ONES, we're going to see ALL TEN FETCHES, INCLUDING ONSLAUGHT FETCHES in either STANDARD or IN SOME SORT OF MODERN MASTERS SET THAT INTRODUCES NEW CARDS INTO MODERN.
I'm not sure why you think that calling another person's reasoning "silly" and holding your shift key down relegates their arguments as invalid, but you're clearly emotionally invested in this subject when there's no reason to be.
I'm not making too much of an issue out them slowing T2 down, you're focusing on it because that way it's easier for you to ignore the much more serious problem of power-level. We're not getting fetches back in Theros so that everyone can suddenly go to perfect five-colour manabases after they've just started pushing away from the heavy muticolour nature of the current Standard format.
If we wait for Shocklands to rotate out we'll have a year of $100 Scalding Tarns, which is also undesirable.
When MM was compiled they weren't overly enthused with the idea of putting new cards directly into the format in the same way Commander adds cards to Legacy, so it's unlikely they'll start now.
Leaving the most obvious solution as reprinting Zendikar fetches in MM2, meaning no Onslaught reprint.
Roughly a 0% chance they'll reprint fetches in Theros. However, the fact they didn't reprint the filterlands in MM1 makes me think its unlikely they reprint the fetches in MM2.
There aren't 8 Filterlands in every multicoloured Modern deck though.
1. There's no guarantee they'll use MM2 to reprint Zendikar fetches. In fact, the logic works just as well in reverse; if they're reprinted in Theros they are unlikely to be in MM2.
2. There's no good basis to believe that reprinting in MM means they won't reprint it in Standard as well. I don't think one set is enough to extrapolate trends from, particularly when it was an experiment.
It works significantly less well in reverse since Fetches do two things to T2 they don't like, namely slowing the format down because everyone is shuffling every other turn, and making mana bases too powerful when they've just taken steps to move back to one or two colours from the three or four that has characterized Ravnica block Standard.
It's highly unlikely they'll reprint them in T2 if they have an opportunity not to.
They basically need a reprint somewhere however since the prices of mana bases are once again becoming prohibitive.
Are you trying to be sarcastic or something? Onslaught fetches would have to be introduced in Modern via Standard, unless they decide to start doing special sets or make MM2 more than just reprints. In any case, how does the confirmation of MM2 tell us anything about Onslaught fetch reprints?
I still expect Onslaught fetches to be in Theros or Huey.
Because if they use MM2 to reprint the Zendikar fetches that are now prohibitively expensive, it's unlikely we'll get them in T2.
And since they're printing lands as 10 card cycles now we're not getting the allied half in a set by themselves.
If the pace of this set is anything other than glacial you're not going to get away with paying 13 mana to draw two cards.
That was the first thing I thought of.
The match that's going on right now is showing how amazing counterspells in general are at not dealing with the Bogle deck.
But since you've just quoted the post where I said it's not about Bogle you're clearly having even more trouble reading my posts than you allege I'm having reading yours.
Metagaming to the point where your opponents barely get to play Magic seems ridiculous.
Because it's not specifically about Bogle, it's about that we shouldn't be okay with reducing Modern to Rock Paper Scissors with twenty different throws instead of three.
Saying things like Living End crushes Bogle is just illustrating the problem, not alleviating it.
Cards like Pulse and Burial are going to get you killed against faster decks like GR or Affinity where you normally wouldn't be dead if you were playing cheaper cards like Supreme Verdict.
Gaining 20% against one deck isn't worth it when you lose 10% against 90% of the format.
Twin and Pod lists have a limiting factor in that they all require creatures to combo off, and every deck in Modern should (and basically does) have a plan to interact with creatures that aren't untargetable, meaning that even decks that aren't directly tuned to beat them can still play a game of Magic against them.
Bogle is more like Storm where if you don't have a specific set of answers somewhere in your 75 you're just dead.
I'm not sure how reducing Modern to a gigantic game of "do you have it" is playing Magic.
Shifting the game back to whether or not you decided to sideboard the four cards that turn a 20% matchup into an 80% matchup isn't a healthy direction to take a format.
I'm not sure why you think that calling another person's reasoning "silly" and holding your shift key down relegates their arguments as invalid, but you're clearly emotionally invested in this subject when there's no reason to be.
I'm not making too much of an issue out them slowing T2 down, you're focusing on it because that way it's easier for you to ignore the much more serious problem of power-level. We're not getting fetches back in Theros so that everyone can suddenly go to perfect five-colour manabases after they've just started pushing away from the heavy muticolour nature of the current Standard format.
If we wait for Shocklands to rotate out we'll have a year of $100 Scalding Tarns, which is also undesirable.
When MM was compiled they weren't overly enthused with the idea of putting new cards directly into the format in the same way Commander adds cards to Legacy, so it's unlikely they'll start now.
Leaving the most obvious solution as reprinting Zendikar fetches in MM2, meaning no Onslaught reprint.
There aren't 8 Filterlands in every multicoloured Modern deck though.
It works significantly less well in reverse since Fetches do two things to T2 they don't like, namely slowing the format down because everyone is shuffling every other turn, and making mana bases too powerful when they've just taken steps to move back to one or two colours from the three or four that has characterized Ravnica block Standard.
It's highly unlikely they'll reprint them in T2 if they have an opportunity not to.
They basically need a reprint somewhere however since the prices of mana bases are once again becoming prohibitive.
Because if they use MM2 to reprint the Zendikar fetches that are now prohibitively expensive, it's unlikely we'll get them in T2.
And since they're printing lands as 10 card cycles now we're not getting the allied half in a set by themselves.
So no Onslaught fetches.
Or you could just float mana and sacrifice Arbor elf instead of playing Burning-Tree Emissary for 0 value.
V_V