Guys, so many of these threads are flooded with "this card sux0rs!" and "this card is teh awesome sauce!" that they get in the way. If somebody can't be bothered to spend more than a few seconds thinking about their post, can we please just ignore the hyperbole, trolling and flaming?
At any rate, in constructed, the power level and playability of Simic Manipulator is directly related to the viability of other cards that generate +1/+1 counters efficiently. His own evolve mechanic will obviously generate some counters, but you won't play the manipulator unless you can generate more counters. And it should go without saying that a card like this is not intended as a 3-drop very often, and probably not 4 copies in a deck. Instead it is played as a win-con a bit later after your board has stabilized.
For Manipulator to be good, you need one of the following to also be worth playing:
1) Like all Evolve creatures, a source of repeatable free creatures. Particularly Geist of Saint Traft or either Garruk, although 3/3s evolve better than 2/2s obviously.
2) A repeatable source of +1/+1 counters. Ajani, Caller of the Pride and Cathar's Crusade being particularly noteworthy. And while more farfetched, something like Death's Presence could pop up in some weird combo deck.
3) Non-repeatable sources of lots of +1/+1 counters. Master Biomancer is probably the #1 card that determines Simic Manipulator's playability in Standard, although Increasing Savagery and Hunger of the Howlpack are noteworthy as well.
Overall, I would speculate that Simic Manipulator would see play in a Bant deck with Master Biomancer, Restoration Angel, and Geist of Saint Traft, if such a deck exists. It would likely be played as a 2-of or put in the sideboard for non-aggro decks. If Master Biomancer isn't good enough for STD, then I think it much less likely that Simic Manipulator finds a home.
Have you guys forgotten Somberwald Spider so soon? When you got the morbid on him, he was great, and he cost 5. Despite the 5cmc and the hit-or-miss nature of morbid, he was important to the decks that played him. Crocanura will be better on average.
You do realize that in a deck with Elusive Krasis or Invisible Stalker it reads '4UU: Put two tokens onto the battlefield that are copies of the best thing on the battlefield' the turn you play it right?
Additionally, you get to copy the best creature (or artifact) on the table during each of your turns. This is a pretty good wincon. Once you get ahead even a little, any creature or artifact your opponent plays to try and catch up, you just copy it on your turn. There are lots of decks with NO ANSWERS for Invisible Stalker. If you play a keyrune or Chromatic Lantern and play this on turn 5, many decks in the current meta are just done. The meta will evolve of course, but decks without Supreme Verdict are super exposed as all the other sweepers can be countered.
This card is ridiculous with Geist of Saint Traft. Let's say a typical play goes:
1) Cloudfin Raptor
2) Thalia, attack for 1 flying.
3) Geist, attack for 2 flying, 2 ground.
4) attack for 7 flying, 4 ground without committing any more cards, Raptor is a 3/4 flyer. Obviously, Thalia into Geist is always good, but adding T1 Raptor probably makes it unbeatable (especially on the play).
Geist angel will eventually make Raptor into a 4/5 flyer. In many cases this card will be better than Delver, since it always flies, it's much more reliable, and obviously can get much bigger.
All of the Evolve guys should work well with Geist, but I suspect most of them will have the wrong CMC or colors to easily fit.
If those cards win you the game, why do you want to encode them into the Stalker? D:
I don't think you really expected an answer, but I'll clarify. Epic Experiment in general struggled to find good instants and sorceries to cast that weren't X spells. Well, none of the Cipher cards will be X spells, so they should all be reasonable candidates. Additionally, getting to double the effect if you can attack makes many smaller experiments still win. And if you experiment for 7 so you can hit Temporal Mastery you might get 3 copies. Of course, Epic Experiment decks prefer token generators over actual creatures, so it might make a better example with a token rather than Stalker. Although Niv-Magus might actually be a good alternate win con in such a deck.
Wow, has nobody mentioned the interaction that this card, and cipher cards in general, can have with Epic Experiment? Seems entirely plausible for T2 Stalker, T3 rit-rit-rit Experiment, hit 2-4 ciphers, encode them on stalker, attack and presumably win, depending on what they all do.
Also, nobody's mentioned Niv-Magus Elemental yet? Aside from Stalker he's an obvious target; if you don't need the effect just +2/+2! If there are any Cipher spells for 2cc he could get out of hand really fast.
Anyway Windfall is banned in Legacy for a reason, but getting a second windfall for free on the same turn seems pretty good. This is obviously incredibly good with things like Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, and rituals. In Legacy you can do things like T1 land, Chrome Mox, Invisible Stalker, T2 Ancient Tomb, Whispering Madness (encode on stalker), play all the free stuff you draw, attack, Whispering Madness again, then storm out FTW. Getting 2 storm count and seeing 10-14 cards cards for 4 mana? Seems good.
Finally, if there's anything cheap that draws a card, even just a "loot" effect, it will be busted in dredge. 4 mana for Whispering Madness is obviously hard in dredge, but something like "U, Draw a Card then Discard a Card--Cipher" seems really bad right? Totally busted in dredge.
Well, free spells is free spells, just begging for abuse. Don't forget that these are still cast so they count for storm and will trigger all casting triggers and will work with things like Maelstrom Nexus or Thrumming Stone for more free spells. You can still pay additional costs, so if you give them Conspire (say Wort + Painter's Servant) you can pay that. And of course, once on the stack, you can exile them to Niv-Magus Elemental or copy them with Nivix Guild Mage etc.
We won't know for sure until the official word comes down, but the behavior should be something like this:
1) You have priority, cast Epic Experiment for X.
2) Your opponent gets priority, passes (for this example).
3) Epic Experiment Resolves:
3a) You exile X cards from the top of your library.
3b) From those X cards, you choose any number of Instants and/or Sorceries with CMC <= X that you would like to cast without paying it's original mana cost.
3c) You may not choose to pay the mana cost nor choose to pay alternate costs. However, you may pay additional costs like kicker or entwine (and in some cases you may have to, like Thalia).
3d) Any time a spell with X in its cost is cast without paying its mana cost, X is zero.
3e) You make all other decisions for casting a spell like modes, targeting, etc, for each of these spells.
3f) You choose some order for these spells.
3g) Those spells are placed on the stack (they go from exile to the stack) in the chosen order simultaneously. This means none of the spells are on the stack while making casting decisions like targeting.
3h) The remaining exiled cards (ones you did not choose and ones you could not choose and non-instant/sorcery cards) go into your graveyard.
3i) Epic Experiment is done resolving.
4) You get priority (assuming it's your turn, which it probably is, unless you have Hypersonic Dragon in play and cast this on your opponents turn, in which case your opponent gets priority). You may do all the things you normally do with priority with a bunch of spells on the stack.
5) You pass priority, the game continues as normal, spells resolve off the stack and go to your graveyard unless otherwise specified (like Temporal Mastery etc).
I believe this to be how the card will work, but it's confusing enough that I expect official clarification.
Not in my own games, but I saw another guy go turn 2 Lightning Mauler, turn 3 Silverblade Paladin, hit for 8, turn 4 Miracle Thunderous Wrath attack for 8, win the game. His opponent only managed to play a Gloomwidow. He was on the play, but still, turn 4 win in sealed?
This card is aimed at shenanigans with things like Creeping Renaissance, which can actually be a good card in EDH. Return 10 creatures or whatever to your hand and recast them all at once FTW. The colored mana will still get in the way, but things like Platinum Angel will be put into play for free. Still not nearly as good a card as Rooftop Storm, but this falls in the same category.
I think you need to look at Charge as a variant on Multikicker or Replicate. Also, you should only be able to charge one spell at a time. However, you can make an artifact that has a variant on Imprint that allows you to charge a card.
Basic ideas:
***
Charged Sentry W
Common
Creature - Soldier
Defender
Charge -- 1, put other cards exiled this way in your graveyard: exile this card from your hand face down; it is charging. If exiled and charging, you may put a Charge counter on this card at the beginning of your upkeep and you may cast it from exile.
Charged Sentry enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters where X is the number of charge counters it had when cast.
0/2
***
Charged Bolt 1RR
Common
Instant
Charge -- 1, put other cards exiled this way in your graveyard: exile this card from your hand face down; it is charging. If exiled and charging, you may put a Charge counter on this card at the beginning of your upkeep and you may cast it from exile.
Do 2 damage to target creature. Copy this spell for each charge counter on it when cast. You may choose new targets for each copy.
***
Charging Station 3
Uncommon
2, T, Discard any cards charging with Charging Station: You may exile a card with Charge from your hand with Charging Station. It is charging.
2, T: Put a Charge counter on the card Charging with Charging Station.
3, T: Put a Charge counter on any Charging card.
Whenever Charging Station leaves play, discard any cards Charging with Charging Station.
***
Charging Barrier 2W
Rare
Enchantment
Each player must pay an additional X when casting spells from exile, where X is the number of Charge counters on that card.
***
You have to be careful of the interactions with regular exile; you don't want cards with Charge exiled (say countered with Dissipate) to then be charging. Note that the way I wrote it, you could use Stifle or Sundial of the Infinite shenanigans to nullify the triggered ability on Charging Station and get a lot of cards charging simultaneously. But generally, you could only have one spell charging at a time, avoiding this weird problem of exiling your entire hand and being immune to discard or being able to play shenanigans with Memory Jar or Wheel of Fortune type effects.
Anyway, that's an example of how it would be like Multikicker or Replicate, plus cards that would interact with it and hate on it.
Story 1: ISD Draft, up against a BR deck, after a war of attrition he has a Night Revelers with a Skeletal Grimace beating face, 5/5 regenerator is hard to deal with. Randomly he has a plains in play, but I haven't actually seen any white cards all match. He has one card in hand, at the end of his turn I play Tribute to Hunger. He plays Village Bell Ringers, the only white card in his whole deck. He of course proceeds to win.
Story 2: ISD Draft, on the play, I play turn 2 Ludevic's Test Subject. My opponent has mulled to 5, so I decide to flip it turn 5 for the win on turn 6. I can flip it and play a Doomed Traveler just in case he has any crazy shenanigans with his Inquisitor's Flail (he has no fliers, so I'm confident in my chump blocking). I attack for 13, he untaps, top-decks the land he needs, casts Traitorous Blood, equips the flail, and attacks for lethal right over my traveler. The worst part? I was holding Avacyan Priest in hand, and if I'd just been more cautious and played him first, no way he could have won.
Story 3: DKA pre-release, round 2. Game 1, I attack for a bunch, opponent thinks hard, realizes he has lethal counter attack, flashes in Hallowhenge Spirit, removing my Nibilis of the Mist from combat. However, he has completely forgotten that Elguad Inquisitor has lifelink. I win game 1 with 1 life left as a result. Game 2, I am severely mana screwed, stuck on 3 plains, while his flipped Gatstaf Shepard beats face. He plays Angelic Overseer, then Shepard + Tower Geist knock me down to 9. I top deck a forest like a champ, drop Daybreak Ranger. He drops Drogskol Captain and attacks with his fliers and intimidater, confident that his captain and 3 non-flying humans make him safe. I chump block the shepard with ranger, going to 1 life, untap, drop Gavony Ironwright, play Faith's Shield calling pro-white, and attack for exacties (15 if I recall correctly; I had a rather large Champion of the Parish which had gotten some early hits, Thraben Heretic, Doomed Traveler, and Elder Cathar). I almost felt sorry for the guy, losing both games with me at 1 life.
I mean signaling is great but not when you intentionally take a inferior card just to signal.
Well see therein lies the debate. I think everybody else is overvaluing the Skaab. It seems to me to be the new Morkut Banshee. Everybody loved that card at first, then realized that morbid was a little harder to trigger than they realized. The Banshee is a better card than the Relentless Skaabs, too, and I wouldn't first pick Banshee over the Hallowhenge Spirit either.
Ultimately, the Skaab is hoping to 2-1 somebody with its undying but otherwise is a simple beatstick. The spirit, however, will much more reliably 2-1 somebody thanks to its surprise value and easier casting cost. Surprise blocking, removing double blocks, nullifying combat tricks like Spidery Grasp or Moment of Heroism, and of course simple tempo by removing an attacker (especially when you counterattack for lethal). And of course, all flash creatures work great with werewolves, and White works great with Green and Red.
So in my book, the spirit will make more of an impact in more games, and the signaling is just a bonus. I would take the Skaabs around 3rd pick once I know that I'm in that deck archetype.
A lot of you are picking Relentless Skaabs, which while it's a good card, I don't think it's a good first pick here. Picking a double blue card and then passing FOUR blue cards is an iffy proposition in the first place for a card that is just efficient, but not a game changer. When you combine the extra casting restriction, being 5 CMC, no evasion or trample, and the fact that Skaabs don't play well together, and it's not a great first pick. For that casting cost, I'd rather have Sturmgeist or Murder of Crows, and I'm generally a sad panda if I'm first-picking those. Finally, you would be passing a Thraben Heretic, which is an eminently playable hate-bear in this format.
Without an obvious bomb, I favor the splashable utility card and favor cutting off my color. I think Hallowhenge Scavenger is the clear choice here, although Faithless Looting and Hunger of Howlpack deserve consideration.
It's a tough call between the Elk and the Seakite, but it looks like UW fliers is going to be stronger with DKA, so the Seakite is probably the pick. Also, picking Seakite means the guy on your left is less likely to go blue, since there's only one other blue card. Clinging Mists is worthy of some consideration, as it will be another staple in GU control/mill decks, and I predict that, like Gnaw to the Bone, it will be seriously undervalued at first--there's a chance that it will wheel.
At any rate, in constructed, the power level and playability of Simic Manipulator is directly related to the viability of other cards that generate +1/+1 counters efficiently. His own evolve mechanic will obviously generate some counters, but you won't play the manipulator unless you can generate more counters. And it should go without saying that a card like this is not intended as a 3-drop very often, and probably not 4 copies in a deck. Instead it is played as a win-con a bit later after your board has stabilized.
For Manipulator to be good, you need one of the following to also be worth playing:
1) Like all Evolve creatures, a source of repeatable free creatures. Particularly Geist of Saint Traft or either Garruk, although 3/3s evolve better than 2/2s obviously.
2) A repeatable source of +1/+1 counters. Ajani, Caller of the Pride and Cathar's Crusade being particularly noteworthy. And while more farfetched, something like Death's Presence could pop up in some weird combo deck.
3) Non-repeatable sources of lots of +1/+1 counters. Master Biomancer is probably the #1 card that determines Simic Manipulator's playability in Standard, although Increasing Savagery and Hunger of the Howlpack are noteworthy as well.
Overall, I would speculate that Simic Manipulator would see play in a Bant deck with Master Biomancer, Restoration Angel, and Geist of Saint Traft, if such a deck exists. It would likely be played as a 2-of or put in the sideboard for non-aggro decks. If Master Biomancer isn't good enough for STD, then I think it much less likely that Simic Manipulator finds a home.
Additionally, you get to copy the best creature (or artifact) on the table during each of your turns. This is a pretty good wincon. Once you get ahead even a little, any creature or artifact your opponent plays to try and catch up, you just copy it on your turn. There are lots of decks with NO ANSWERS for Invisible Stalker. If you play a keyrune or Chromatic Lantern and play this on turn 5, many decks in the current meta are just done. The meta will evolve of course, but decks without Supreme Verdict are super exposed as all the other sweepers can be countered.
1) Cloudfin Raptor
2) Thalia, attack for 1 flying.
3) Geist, attack for 2 flying, 2 ground.
4) attack for 7 flying, 4 ground without committing any more cards, Raptor is a 3/4 flyer. Obviously, Thalia into Geist is always good, but adding T1 Raptor probably makes it unbeatable (especially on the play).
Geist angel will eventually make Raptor into a 4/5 flyer. In many cases this card will be better than Delver, since it always flies, it's much more reliable, and obviously can get much bigger.
All of the Evolve guys should work well with Geist, but I suspect most of them will have the wrong CMC or colors to easily fit.
2) Chaining Emissaries.
3) Current Mono-Red Aggro decks would probably run it just to put out 2+ guys on turn 2 more often. Turn 1 Cackler => Turn 2 Emissary + Chainwalker.
Just in general this guy will help turbo charge aggro strategies by allowing turn 2 combinations that are very hard to recover from.
I don't think you really expected an answer, but I'll clarify. Epic Experiment in general struggled to find good instants and sorceries to cast that weren't X spells. Well, none of the Cipher cards will be X spells, so they should all be reasonable candidates. Additionally, getting to double the effect if you can attack makes many smaller experiments still win. And if you experiment for 7 so you can hit Temporal Mastery you might get 3 copies. Of course, Epic Experiment decks prefer token generators over actual creatures, so it might make a better example with a token rather than Stalker. Although Niv-Magus might actually be a good alternate win con in such a deck.
Also, nobody's mentioned Niv-Magus Elemental yet? Aside from Stalker he's an obvious target; if you don't need the effect just +2/+2! If there are any Cipher spells for 2cc he could get out of hand really fast.
Anyway Windfall is banned in Legacy for a reason, but getting a second windfall for free on the same turn seems pretty good. This is obviously incredibly good with things like Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, and rituals. In Legacy you can do things like T1 land, Chrome Mox, Invisible Stalker, T2 Ancient Tomb, Whispering Madness (encode on stalker), play all the free stuff you draw, attack, Whispering Madness again, then storm out FTW. Getting 2 storm count and seeing 10-14 cards cards for 4 mana? Seems good.
Finally, if there's anything cheap that draws a card, even just a "loot" effect, it will be busted in dredge. 4 mana for Whispering Madness is obviously hard in dredge, but something like "U, Draw a Card then Discard a Card--Cipher" seems really bad right? Totally busted in dredge.
Well, free spells is free spells, just begging for abuse. Don't forget that these are still cast so they count for storm and will trigger all casting triggers and will work with things like Maelstrom Nexus or Thrumming Stone for more free spells. You can still pay additional costs, so if you give them Conspire (say Wort + Painter's Servant) you can pay that. And of course, once on the stack, you can exile them to Niv-Magus Elemental or copy them with Nivix Guild Mage etc.
1) You have priority, cast Epic Experiment for X.
2) Your opponent gets priority, passes (for this example).
3) Epic Experiment Resolves:
3a) You exile X cards from the top of your library.
3b) From those X cards, you choose any number of Instants and/or Sorceries with CMC <= X that you would like to cast without paying it's original mana cost.
3c) You may not choose to pay the mana cost nor choose to pay alternate costs. However, you may pay additional costs like kicker or entwine (and in some cases you may have to, like Thalia).
3d) Any time a spell with X in its cost is cast without paying its mana cost, X is zero.
3e) You make all other decisions for casting a spell like modes, targeting, etc, for each of these spells.
3f) You choose some order for these spells.
3g) Those spells are placed on the stack (they go from exile to the stack) in the chosen order simultaneously. This means none of the spells are on the stack while making casting decisions like targeting.
3h) The remaining exiled cards (ones you did not choose and ones you could not choose and non-instant/sorcery cards) go into your graveyard.
3i) Epic Experiment is done resolving.
4) You get priority (assuming it's your turn, which it probably is, unless you have Hypersonic Dragon in play and cast this on your opponents turn, in which case your opponent gets priority). You may do all the things you normally do with priority with a bunch of spells on the stack.
5) You pass priority, the game continues as normal, spells resolve off the stack and go to your graveyard unless otherwise specified (like Temporal Mastery etc).
I believe this to be how the card will work, but it's confusing enough that I expect official clarification.
Another game, both of us had relatively slow hands, but I went turn 3 Vessel of Endless Rest, turn 4 Wolfir Silverheart, turn 5 Pathbreaker Wurm. An 8/8 trampler and a 10/8 trampler on turn 5. Yeah, opponent scooped.
My first round opponent has Angel's Tomb and Goldnight Commander in play, plays Thatcher Revolt and attacks for 23. Definitely scary. I play Terrifying Presence, counterattack for lethal on my turn, he has a sad face. However, in a later round he did it again with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight in play, attacks for like 50 damage. Serious pwnage.
Not in my own games, but I saw another guy go turn 2 Lightning Mauler, turn 3 Silverblade Paladin, hit for 8, turn 4 Miracle Thunderous Wrath attack for 8, win the game. His opponent only managed to play a Gloomwidow. He was on the play, but still, turn 4 win in sealed?
Basic ideas:
***
Charged Sentry W
Common
Creature - Soldier
Defender
Charge -- 1, put other cards exiled this way in your graveyard: exile this card from your hand face down; it is charging. If exiled and charging, you may put a Charge counter on this card at the beginning of your upkeep and you may cast it from exile.
Charged Sentry enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters where X is the number of charge counters it had when cast.
0/2
***
Charged Bolt 1RR
Common
Instant
Charge -- 1, put other cards exiled this way in your graveyard: exile this card from your hand face down; it is charging. If exiled and charging, you may put a Charge counter on this card at the beginning of your upkeep and you may cast it from exile.
Do 2 damage to target creature. Copy this spell for each charge counter on it when cast. You may choose new targets for each copy.
***
Charging Station 3
Uncommon
2, T, Discard any cards charging with Charging Station: You may exile a card with Charge from your hand with Charging Station. It is charging.
2, T: Put a Charge counter on the card Charging with Charging Station.
3, T: Put a Charge counter on any Charging card.
Whenever Charging Station leaves play, discard any cards Charging with Charging Station.
***
Charging Barrier 2W
Rare
Enchantment
Each player must pay an additional X when casting spells from exile, where X is the number of Charge counters on that card.
***
You have to be careful of the interactions with regular exile; you don't want cards with Charge exiled (say countered with Dissipate) to then be charging. Note that the way I wrote it, you could use Stifle or Sundial of the Infinite shenanigans to nullify the triggered ability on Charging Station and get a lot of cards charging simultaneously. But generally, you could only have one spell charging at a time, avoiding this weird problem of exiling your entire hand and being immune to discard or being able to play shenanigans with Memory Jar or Wheel of Fortune type effects.
Anyway, that's an example of how it would be like Multikicker or Replicate, plus cards that would interact with it and hate on it.
Story 2: ISD Draft, on the play, I play turn 2 Ludevic's Test Subject. My opponent has mulled to 5, so I decide to flip it turn 5 for the win on turn 6. I can flip it and play a Doomed Traveler just in case he has any crazy shenanigans with his Inquisitor's Flail (he has no fliers, so I'm confident in my chump blocking). I attack for 13, he untaps, top-decks the land he needs, casts Traitorous Blood, equips the flail, and attacks for lethal right over my traveler. The worst part? I was holding Avacyan Priest in hand, and if I'd just been more cautious and played him first, no way he could have won.
Story 3: DKA pre-release, round 2. Game 1, I attack for a bunch, opponent thinks hard, realizes he has lethal counter attack, flashes in Hallowhenge Spirit, removing my Nibilis of the Mist from combat. However, he has completely forgotten that Elguad Inquisitor has lifelink. I win game 1 with 1 life left as a result. Game 2, I am severely mana screwed, stuck on 3 plains, while his flipped Gatstaf Shepard beats face. He plays Angelic Overseer, then Shepard + Tower Geist knock me down to 9. I top deck a forest like a champ, drop Daybreak Ranger. He drops Drogskol Captain and attacks with his fliers and intimidater, confident that his captain and 3 non-flying humans make him safe. I chump block the shepard with ranger, going to 1 life, untap, drop Gavony Ironwright, play Faith's Shield calling pro-white, and attack for exacties (15 if I recall correctly; I had a rather large Champion of the Parish which had gotten some early hits, Thraben Heretic, Doomed Traveler, and Elder Cathar). I almost felt sorry for the guy, losing both games with me at 1 life.
Well see therein lies the debate. I think everybody else is overvaluing the Skaab. It seems to me to be the new Morkut Banshee. Everybody loved that card at first, then realized that morbid was a little harder to trigger than they realized. The Banshee is a better card than the Relentless Skaabs, too, and I wouldn't first pick Banshee over the Hallowhenge Spirit either.
Ultimately, the Skaab is hoping to 2-1 somebody with its undying but otherwise is a simple beatstick. The spirit, however, will much more reliably 2-1 somebody thanks to its surprise value and easier casting cost. Surprise blocking, removing double blocks, nullifying combat tricks like Spidery Grasp or Moment of Heroism, and of course simple tempo by removing an attacker (especially when you counterattack for lethal). And of course, all flash creatures work great with werewolves, and White works great with Green and Red.
So in my book, the spirit will make more of an impact in more games, and the signaling is just a bonus. I would take the Skaabs around 3rd pick once I know that I'm in that deck archetype.
Without an obvious bomb, I favor the splashable utility card and favor cutting off my color. I think Hallowhenge Scavenger is the clear choice here, although Faithless Looting and Hunger of Howlpack deserve consideration.