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  • 3

    posted a message on [C21] Lorehold Legacies— The Command Zone previews
    Thread locked pending further review
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 1

    posted a message on IN THIS THREAD I MAKE/POST VIDEO ABOUT EVERY TRIBE IN COMMANDER
    Looking forward to hearing about Spiritmonger.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • 8

    posted a message on Secret Lair: Black is Magic
    This is so far off the rails from discussing Magic at this point; I'm shutting this down.

    It's Black History Month, people... Making a product themed to that is not pandering, nor political. It's literally the theme of the month, and a Nationally recognized cultural event.


    I am going to take this moment to reiterate that MTGS stands behind inclusion initiatives, and increased diversity in Magic, these forums, and in life in general. Statements made against inclusion or diversity hold no place here.

    I am also going to reiterate that MTGS is not a place to argue about politics or social issues. Period.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 2

    posted a message on [RETIRED] [Admin] bobthefunny's Strategic Chalkboard
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    It's a fairly obvious clue that such language is inherently racist if, when race is actually factored in, you would shy away from using it. The fact that race hasn't been factored in yet is oddly bizarre, considering the site's supposed commitment to inclusion. Your determination here effectively boils down to the following: either all BIPOC people take no issue with words like 'lynch' being used casually on these forums (such an assumption would be willfully blind, ignorant, or both); or it's somehow your prerogative to tell people what they should or should not find offensive.


    Yes, if race were factored in it is racist. That is why outside of the context of a Mafia game, where the term 'lynch' would be difficult to justify without a racial overtone/impact, and would be disallowed. The very argument you make can be used in favor on allowing the term, as the gameplay usage divests it of a racial connotation in that context.

    Your attribution of a stance to the site is likewise incorrect. You are falsely attributing an extreme stance to the site to argue against, and that is incorrect, and also the literal definition of a straw man argument.

    We have also received no indication that this issue is as prevalent as you make it out to be. So far it does seem that other users are able to identify that the context of the game term is separate from racial connotations.

    For reference, this debate here, seems to agree with this overall sentiment:
    https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/387223/is-lynch-considered-a-racist-word

    In addition, even wikipedia does not refer to lynching as a racially charged word. While it explicitly and up front states that lynching of African Americans was common and prevalent, it also shows that lynching has connotations and prevalence across the entire world:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching
    That said, wikipedia DID however also tag lynching as part of their series on discrimination, which does show the word to be racially charged.

    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Also: the very top of the Mafia forum still says Hang 'em high! That's just flagrantly tone-deaf. So... yeah, you don't get to use context as an excuse for this one anyways.


    I will look into this.

    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    The phase out has arguably stalled; the community decided well before I came along to stop using 'lynch,' and I've been patiently championing its removal since late September. How much time is too much time to stop using a single word? Is it more than 4 months? Because that's where we stand right now, at a minimum.


    This is something to look into. I will admit that we have not discussed what the ideal timeline would be within the staff, and this does seem to be an important piece of information in order to determine what the timeline would look like.

    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    What do you consider bad faith? Various forum members still have it in their sig; they refuse to edit it from their posts, and actively exclude people from their games who take issue with the word. I've been cussed out and threatened - in private - by a forum member I assumed was mature enough to at least engage in civil discourse on the matter, in a place where such discourse was both welcome and expected. Despite numerous reports, that player has not removed the word from their sig block. Good faith would be intervention from the moderation staff - mods with no conflicts of interest on the matter - in response to such reports; good faith would be said player following moderator requests to that effect.


    There will always be individuals who, for one reason or another, are resistant to change. Ideally, once the general Mafia group has accepted and transitioned on, we would start to officially send reminders and warnings, and eventually infractions to stop using the term. The mod staff will discuss what an ideal timeline should be.

    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    The point is not yet moot, but if it will be soon that's all the more reason for the site owners and mod staff to act now. It's less a matter of 'if' than 'when,' insofar as the Mafia community's imminent departure from this site is concerned, so as a practical matter you have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by officially disavowing racist language at this juncture. Perhaps here, when continued ad viewership is no longer a consideration, you can finally bring yourself to do the right thing.


    What, precisely, is there to gain? What I see is an action that will have no discernable impact, short of being a position of spite on the way out the door.

    When/(if) the Mafia community leaves, I would personally prefer to simply move on from it, and archive the forums. With the Mafia forum gone, this resolves the issue, as there would no longer be a context for the use of the word 'lynch,' and we would be able to unilaterally make it unacceptable. Should users wish to reopen a Mafia forum in the future then, we would be able to do so with a fresh start, and caveat the term as unacceptable from the very beginning. This seems a much more practical solution.

    I find it fascinating that its such a "important" goal to hunt down people for a single word and make demands to them to edit their signature and delete posts or re-edit posts long in the past just because someone suddenly decided that a word is for whatever reason not welcome anymore.

    You can bet that the vast vast majority have no ill intentions what so ever, so the words themselves dont hurt anybody and they are also have no means to hurt anybody , and frankly, the vast majority of people wont care at all if they read "lynch" or any other words, they accept its a game with its own rules and flavor.

    Anybody can feel offended by basically anything, its absolutely impossible to create a space in which everyone is welcome to the fullest extend and anybody is protected by being offended ... thats not a possible end scenario ... the only thing that is possible, is to create a space that fits your very own personal guidelines of what you want to accept and what you dont want to accept.


    I need to address a few things here:
    1. Just because a person or group of people do NOT find something offensive, does not mean that it is not offensive.
    2. 'Lynch' is a term with racial connotations within the United States.
    3. People are still threatened with lynching in the United States, and these acts ARE hate crimes, and ARE racially charge. Though ultimately found to be a case of misunderstanding, the NASCAR incident this past year shows that a noose IS problematic, that intentionally putting a noose IS a hatecrime, and also showed the support of many people coming together who realized this.
    4. Words absolutely CAN hurt people.
    5. There is a line that needs to be drawn, and generally speaking that line would get drawn between where an individual gets offended, and where something is an recognized offence to a larger group of people as a whole.

    I suggest you look over the history of lynching to better understand FB's position and stance:
    https://www.naacp.org/history-of-lynchings/

    Furthermore, as stated above even Wikipedia includes their article on lynching as part of their series on discrimination. See the right hand bar. This further shows that the term is racially charged.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching

    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    It's a sure sign that you're on the wrong side of history, bob, when the alt-right comes out to voice their support of your policy.

    Calling someone alt-right was uncalled for FB, and comes awfully close to a personal attack.
    Posted in: Staff Helpdesks
  • 1

    posted a message on [RETIRED] [Admin] bobthefunny's Strategic Chalkboard
    No.

    First off, there's false equivalency here. The Mafia forum has already indicated a direction from moving away from the term 'lynch' which is the term you are objecting to. Secondly, there is the matter of context, usage, and history involved; as well as the cultural implications in areas which are not the United States, which you seem to be repeatedly ignoring.

    What we have here is not a group deciding what is and is not racist, it is the understanding that the term has been used in a separate context with a different meaning. They have accepted that the term has charged usage outside of their context, and have made indications towards moving towards different usages.

    Let me give you an alternate example, in the word "Retard." Retard is considered an pejorative and offensive word here on MTGS. We do not accept it as an insult, description, or even passing phrase. However, we also understand that the term holds history as a medical term, which though no longer widely acceptable even in that context, could hold legitimate usages. Despite the word having a legitimate context in medical history - the medical profession has moved onward and discontinued usage of the word due to the negative connotations, which came in from an outside context. However, that change occured over a period of time of phasing out the terminology.

    That is what is happening here. They have a word within their context and definition, have accepted there is a charged connotation, and are now in the process of phasing out their vocabulary. At this time, we are allowing this change and phasing to occur naturally. Should this natural phase out stall or not occur in good faith, we shall revisit the topic, but at this juncture we do not see any reason to assume any sort of bad faith.

    ===

    In any regard, this entire thing may soon be a moot point, so at current we are awaiting to see how this plays out.
    Posted in: Staff Helpdesks
  • 2

    posted a message on Should We Stay or Should We Go
    Hi guys, if you have drama from somewhere else, settle it there, not here. This beef does not have a place in this thread - this thread is for the discussion of the future of the Mafia group, and thereby the forums as they stand here. Not personal vendettas.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • 1

    posted a message on [KHM] Dragonkin Berserker (Leak)
    Discussion about how the users of this site are terrible people isn't a productive line of discussion, and is insulting to those people that use this site. It also has nothing to do with the leaks.

    If you have concerns about the site's directions, or have ideas for improvements, please let us know in the staff inbox. We would love to hear your feedback as to how to make the site a more welcoming experience.

    This is not the thread for that though. Thanks.


    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/community-discussion/staff-inbox
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 4

    posted a message on [RETIRED] [Admin] bobthefunny's Strategic Chalkboard
    I would like to know how the forum intends to implement the policy on 'Inclusion in the MTG Salvation Community'.

    Edit: There's been a lot of flaming and snide remarks made by users on the very principles this policy is based upon and I'm tired of seeing our threads devolve just because somebody doesn't like seeing a Black women be the face of a Viking-inspired set.
    We will always do what we can to make MTGSalvation a safe place to foster respectful discussion about Magic. We do have to remember that this is a hobby that many people are passionate about, and when passions are high, things can get a bit heated. Moderators are here to try and salve and smooth over those times when things get a bit too passionate, as well as to respond to comments that go beyond the bounds of our community.

    If you, or anyone else, finds comments they feel are unsafe, harmful, or go beyond the bounds of our community, we urge you to bring these comments to our attention with the Report feature, and include why you feel the comment is inappropriate.

    Our moderators are volunteers, and are only human as well. Sometimes we make mistakes, or simply do not have the knowledge on certain matters. I once received a report based on a derogatory word which I had been previously unaware of, but was able to understand the context of from the explanation of the reporter as well as a bit of research. More explanation is always good.


    People will always state their complaints and opinions, some might agree or disagree with (and yea for some a black women (Kaya) in a viking set is an immersion breaking issue, some might see it as a positive, others dont, people are different in their opinions, which isnt an issue, its the entire point of any inclusion, that some will disagree).
    If a person take issue about a character being in the set because of their race. That is racism. There is no other word for it. It's literally the issue being discussed. Her race.

    This is a fictional game, where Planeswalkers are travelers. They are foreign elements into ANY of these worlds they visit. That's the whole point of Magic. Jace can visit Ixalan, Sorin can visit Zendikar, Arlinn can visit Ravnica. To say that a foreign tourist ruins the immersion or historical accuracy of a world? Because of their RACE?

    No. Those statements are not acceptable. It is literally an argument about exclusion based on race, which is the literal definition of racism.

    Nevermind historical realities that the Vikings sailed all the way into the Mediterranean, and traded with, and fought, in that region. Considering that Vikings dealt with, dealt in, and took slaves, having Black characters would even NOT be out of context, if we were going for historical accuracy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_slave_trade
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion
    The Norse also took Baltic, Slavic and Latin slaves. The Vikings kept some slaves as servants and sold most captives in the Byzantine or Islamic markets.[citation needed] The slave trade was one of the pillars of the Norse economy during the 6th through 11th centuries.[citation needed] The Persian traveler Ibn Rustah described how Swedish Vikings, the Varangians or Rus, terrorized and enslaved the Slavs taken in their raids along the Volga River.
    The well-known Harald Hardrada would also serve the Byzantine emperor in Palestine as well as raiding North Africa, the Middle East as far east as Armenia, and the island of Sicily in the 11th century, as recounted in his saga in Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla.[103]

    Evidence for Norse ventures into Arabia and Central Asia can be found in runestones erected in Scandinavia by the relatives of fallen Viking adventurers. Several of these refer to men who died in "Serkland" (possibly Arabia).[104]


    ---

    When a post gets completely of topic (or any claim somebody is a "nazi" should be outright removed, its a massive fuel to catapult any discourse out of the window).
    Calling someone a Nazi is Flaming, and will be infracted. If you see this behavior occur, please report it.


    The result of censoring any opinions and feelings is far worse than a community thats able to work their differences out in favor of the game.

    As it is right now, the calls for censorship and moderation in favor of a unified mindset and not allowing any negative opinions about anything is harmful.
    I disagree. Not every statement is equally correct, moral, or impactful. We are under no obligation, morally or otherwise, to allow a platform to every kind of speech or opinion. For example, outright hateful speech will never be permitted on this site. The question is thus not about "whether" we can or should moderate, but about "where."

    Finding the line between allowing polite and insightful discussion can sometimes be tricky. Sometimes, such as with racism, it's not.



    So the entire argument comes down to:

    "You are not allowed to critique anything of a fictional character"
    This is hyperbole. Of course not everyone will accept or connect with everything about every character. I have criticism on how many aspects of Magic have been handled, such as the retcon of Ugin, and how the Bolas arc ended.

    However, when the critique of a character is based upon their race, or their gender, or their gender identity... That's not a critique. That's prejudice.
    Posted in: Staff Helpdesks
  • 2

    posted a message on Two new planeswalkers Niko Aris and Tyvar Kell (bio only)
    Right. I thought this was cleaned up yesterday, but apparently I was wrong. This is now WAY off base. None of this is even about Magic anymore.

    I'm shutting this down.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • 3

    posted a message on Two new planeswalkers Niko Aris and Tyvar Kell (bio only)
    I do have one issue with Niko though. Why exactly is "athlete" blue? I read their justification but this to me really harkens back to "new thing" being put in blue in the early days of Magic. It feels a little strange to me that blue gets the jocks and the nerds. It's like the breakfast club but blue is overrepresented.


    It feels to me that 'athlete' can fall into any of the five colors, depending on motivation. Green is probably most natural, given the physical 'natural' contest, and we see that with The First Iroan Games. However, red has the passion of athleticism (Hero of the Games), black has the competitiveness, and white has the teamwork and self-discipline. I can certainly see Blue getting in on it with rigidness and self improvement.

    Physical study and excellence is certainly a newer spotlight for blue, but we have seen physically proficient characters in blue, such as the ninja - who achieve their physical excellence through training and study. Lu Xun, Scholar General and Sun Ce, Young Conquerer could be another? Zhou Yu, Chief Commander is no slouch either, as an 8/8. Or the representation of monks with Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest?

    This also feels right at home on Theros, as the real world comparison - the Olympic Games, welcomed competitors of all walks of life - it makes sense that there would be athletes of all color alignments represented. This also aligns with some real world examples, such as Plato, who was a wrestler and wrestling coach. Socrates was a distinguished soldier.

    Overall, we haven't seen a lot of sports at all in magic - The most athletic event would likely be the Coliseum in the Battlebond set, where we see a variety of charaters, from Green having the physically weakest contestant, to Will Kenrith being a Blue character with good physical prowess.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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