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  • posted a message on Reliquary Tower
    I am one who has always found Reliquary Tower to be overrated. That isn't to say that it doesn't have its place... Just that if you're drawing enough cards to make Reliquary Tower useful, then enough of those cards are typically low value enough to drop by the wayside. You don't need to hold 5 lands in hand at all times.

    Also, because I like consistent draw engines, I also typically find that discarding down is never a problem, since I'll inevitably refill, especially since one or two of the cards I'm keeping will also be refills/draw related.

    Finally, I often treat my GY as a second resource, so dropping things in there is never a complete loss, and can sometimes be a boon. If I have a Nezumi Graverobber on the field, I might just want to drop some of those creatures in the yard - even if it will be more expensive, just so that I have the option of utilizing them at instant speed.


    I suppose my approach to deck construction plays into it as well. I typically like to ramp a lot, so I keep a fairly decent number of basic lands in my deck, anywhere from 12-20, except for special circumstances. From there, between dual lands, fetch lands, and the huge amount of utility lands that now exist - I have issues justifying Reliquary over other more proactive options.

    For example, I typically like to have about 3 Strip Mine variants to be sure I'll have one if needed. I also am a large fan of Scavenger Grounds as another emergency outlet. Many lands are deck dependent, but Mirrorpool is highly flexible, while Winding Canyons, Emergence Zone, Blast Zone, Buried Ruin, Homeward Path, Arcane Lighthouse, High Market, Inventor's Fair, etc all play into various strategies and needs.

    This is before even landing onto options that have colored activations, such as Blighted Fen, Gavony Township, Hanweir Battlements, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Mistveil Plains, Kher Keep, Alchemist's Refuge... etc.


    Now, like all the others, Reliquary Tower has a time and place. I've included it in one of my decks that tends to draw in very large, but more infrequent bursts. I'd also designed the deck for a younger nephew, who might feel bad about discarding all those cards, or might not be quite as good at discarding quickly, or effectively. Perhaps a bit of a crutch, but there are other things to focus on for him before that.

    I also like Reliquary in decks that play towards handsize matters, or some storm variants that use up wheels and damage per draw, etc.

    In short, I think it's definitely useful... but in the right place. I don't think I see it used effectively in a lot of situations.

    Quote from materpillar »
    Ironically I just saw someone lose a game yesterday because they had cut Reliquary Tower from their deck. They'd forgotten and cracked an expedition map to go find it. Didn't have it, and had to discard their hand because of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Thus death. In fact, I've seen Jin-Gitaxias so much recently I've considered adding Reliquary Tower back into my decks out of sheer annoyance. Admittedly, this is an extremely niche personal metagame situation.
    I find this to be a very unique situation to play around. Having an opponent play Jin-Gitaxias, having the means to find and play the tower prior to losing your hand, having that opponent not have Strip Mine or similar to foil your plans, while also having you be unable to find and use a removal on Jin Gitaxias.

    Maybe I'm over-analyzing it, but it's a very specific scenario to me, which I would rather respond to in a number of ways. That said, if Jin Gitaxias is that big of a meta-include, it seems a tower for emergency use might be a good idea. I'd probably still hold up a Swords or Path instead though, or even in addition...

    Quote from materpillar »
    Another strong point in favor of running Reliquary Tower is because if you do happen to randomly draw 18+ cards, the rest of the table doesn't have to wait for 5 minutes while you carefully decide what to discard at the end of your turn... which also happened to me yesterday.
    Why does it take people so long to choose cards, or why do people really need to wait for you to make those decisions at that exact moment in a social game.

    I know each playgroup handles such things differently, but my LGS (fairly casual end, for the record) typically has no issue proceeding forward with play while the person discards down.

    I'm usually the one who also draws upteen million cards as well, and discarding usually isn't that hard. I typically keep the top 2 instant speed removals/answers, one or two board wipes, one or two card draws/refills/recursion engines, and a land. Maybe one decent threat - but usually that threat is getting everything back. If you're drawing 18 cards; you're in a commanding position. All you really need to keep are the cards that help you cement that position, protect it, or recover it. Alternatively, cards to destroy it, should someone turn the tables against you.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Any ideas?
    Quote from EthanNation »
    Also, i hope this was where to post this question. I don't really know!
    Smileup Right in one. This forum is for the general questions and discussions, like this, and once you get a decklist going and want some feedback, you'll want to make that thread in one of the decklist forums. Welcome to the forums!
    Quote from EthanNation »
    Hi guys! I am building my first mono green grunn lonely king commander deck. Any suggestions on what to do?
    Typically, I recommend starting with a two or three color deck, simply because mono-color decks tend to have one facet of gameplay that they are inherently weaker on, and it can take a bit to compensate for it - but I feel that Green and Black are actually the most rounded of the mono-colors, so you can certainly make it work. Green is naturally weak in the following ways: Flyers. Creature Removal. Card draw is dependent on lands or creatures. Each of these can be overcome, but you'll want to give special attention to them.

    Grunn is actually surprisingly open ended, and you can take him a number of directions. Since he has a lot of power on his own, you don't actually need to focus your deck to supporting him to have him be a threat. Generally, the more focused your strategy is, the more powerful the deck in that regard, but also the more vulnerable it is. If you put all your eggs into Killing people with only Grunn, your deck will have problems if they're able to consistently remove him. You'll still want some support for him, such as trample, haste, protection, etc, to ensure he connects. I usually like equipment: Swiftfoot boots, Fleetfeather sandals, Loxodon Warhammer, etc. You'll also want a fair amount of ramp. First off, it'll help you get him out sooner, plus you'll want to be able to kick him, and of course, as he gets removed he'll cost more and you don't want to get locked out of casting him simply because he's gotten too expensive.

    Since Grunn is big, and gets bigger, you may want to go with a "Bigger is Better" theme, with cards to utilize that such as Rishkar's Expertise, or various fight cards to handle your removal.

    Mass removal will be the hardest hole to fill, so you'll want some artifacts like Perilous Vault and Oblivion Stone.

    Quote from darrenhabib »
    If you don't know about EDHREC then it has a lot of cards that people run in their deck list. Give this a scan first.
    I always take EDHrec with a grain of salt. It compiles the most popular cards for each Commander, so you'll get a list of good generic cards of that color, as well as cards that are specifically synergistic with your commander - Which is great, however it will leave you with a very generic deck, and doesn't really build the synergy off of other cards. If a Commander has several popular builds, it can also end up a bit chaotic. It's a good place to start - but don't get hung up on it.

    Quote from Dragonlover »
    I also find the 8x8 method handy as a starting point. If you google it you'll find loads of examples, but the idea is you identify 8 things you want your deck to do, find 8 cards for each category. That's 64 cards, plus your commander is 65, then you add 35 lands and job done. It's not the be all and end all of deck construction, but it's a useful heuristic to start from.
    This is actually a great method, however I do it a bit differently. I find that 35 lands can be a bit low, and recommend 40 lands instead. When I built a quick deck with my nephew for him to play (he was 11 at the time), I used a simple method to help him build: 10 ramp, 10 draw, 10 answers, 10 small/cheap threats, 10 medium threats, 10 large threats. From there, we could look at the curve and tweak/cut as needed. Obviously, it's not a perfect method, many cards can fit into multiple categories. Tireless Tracker can be both a small threat and card draw, for example, but it's a good starting block.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Token and artifacts GW Commander Deck
    Trostani, Selesnya's Voice also is a token centric Selesnya Commander you may want to look at. While she doesn't have the same level of token generation as Rhys the Redeemed, or the speed or aggression of Emmara, soul of the accord - There's a lot of innate synergy with the populate, as well as the incremental lifegain triggers to stay alive while generating many tokens.

    Quote from ConsoleWars »
    Mycosynth Lattice would make everything be able to activate Mirrorworks even tough the tokens wouldn't be artifacts, right?

    The tokens would be artifacts as well. Lattice makes all permanents into artifacts.
    Every card you play will then trigger Mirrorworks, however, keep in mind that Mirrorworks only triggers when non-token artifacts enter.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Looking nice!
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Bazaar Trademage
    Why do I feel like screaming "Street Rat" at it?

    Solid flying body, and able to filter things... I'm sure someone will find a way to blink it to enable some graveyard combos. Seems solid.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Challenge: Break This Rule
    Yes, I got that - but you don't need to rule to do that.

    You don't need this rule to pull lands out of your deck at 1 per turn, in order to get Abundance to stack the deck, when Abundance already pulls lands out faster and better.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Challenge: Break This Rule
    The way this is worded, it could be used to prevent mill/decking (from your natural draw). If you somehow are behind on lands, and have an empty library, you can pay the 2 life to replace your draw to not deck. This still puts you on a 'clock,' but much less stringent.

    My biggest fear would be people intentionally building on light land, and counting on this rule to catch up, while drawing only gas when they actually want it. Even at a 2 land deficit requirement, there will be someone at the table ramping, and allowing them to possibly only miss a single turn land drop. It also allows much greedier keeps, such as Sol Ring, or Necropotence hands.

    Quote from DirkGently »
    could also draw all your lands then use abundance to stack your deck. Stuff like that.
    Abundance already does this? Why pay 2 life to replace your draw with a land search... when you could just cast Abundance to replace your draw with a land search?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on What stories have stayed with you over the test of time?
    Quote from cryogen »
    Didn't you do something similar with Prototype Portal in my cube, except with Sol Rings? Or was this at Wildfire's house? I feel like I remember this.
    I don't recall this one specifically. I know RV got the prototype portal once, and put an artifact land on it?

    Quote from Jivanmukta »
    Story 2: Stigma lasher is a bad card and Oloro hates it.

    For those not on the inside joke - The mods played together, and I played a turn 2 Stigma Lasher while Jiv was playing Oloro, and apparently had no answers to it.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on is mono white actually that bad.
    Mono-white will likely not be taking too many competitive tables, outside of something like Sram cheerios, or something; but that's because Competitive is a whole different beast.

    That said, for regular EDH, mono white can absolutely be a blast. White has some weaknesses, but it's not hard to shore those up, and White has a huge host of strengths to play off of in order to make some one-sided options. White has a strong set of removals, from excellent single-target Creature, Artifact and Enchantment removal, and mass removal of Creatures, Artifacts, and Enchantments as well. White also has mass land removal, but many groups may frown upon that. White also has a strong set of protection spells to contribute to fighting on the stack, and even some (very) limited counter magic. White also has excellent access to Equipment tutoring, which can shore up some weaknesses quite handily. White also has absolutely insane recursion potential as well, of almost any permanent type. Playing Mono-White also has some hilarious anti-multicolor tech, such as Ravnica at War, and Renounce the Guilds, which can be quite valuable plays.

    Your main issues will be ramp and card draw, but both of these are easily overcome. My heliod deck will often times outramp even some green players, though this speaks more to my dedication to ramp. Obviously green players who dedicate to ramp will far outpace you, but White (and any color, thanks to colorless options) can generally hold its own.

    Equipment: White can use cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Relic Seeker to grab Sword of the Animist and Skullclamp to offset some of the Ramp/Draw issues. If mystic is outside your pricepoint, or depending on your commitment to equipment, Several other options exist. Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Feast and Famine can also shore up the draw/ramp in a pinch as well.


    For ramp, some white-specific options also include: Boreas Charger, Knight of the White Orchid and Kor Cartographer, which play well with Blink Effects, or with Resurection effects. You also have Legion's Landing, which at worst can be a sort of White rampant growth.

    Some of my favored colorless options of ramp include Rings of Brighthearth with fetchlands, as fetches also pair well with Sun Titan and Crucible of Worlds. Thawing Glaciers also pairs well with Rings, and also with Deserted Temple, though be careful there as Deserted Temple and Rings can go infinite with a land that produces enough mana, such as Nykthos or Serra's Sanctum.

    Burnished Hart goes well with Gift of Immortality, and also gets reclaimed by Sun Titan. Solemn is a solid add as well. From there, a few mana rocks should set you up well.

    Card Draw:

    Card draw will often be limited to Artifact and Colorless sources, but there are a few good white options, such as Mentor of the Meek and Bygone Bishop. Dawn of Hope is a new one I'm trying out, and Inheritance, while mana-hungry, can be potent.

    From there, I've generally liked Endbringer as a useful utility creature for card draw and other stuff, while Mind's Eye and other generic artifacts can also do their thing. If you're really confidant about your mana base, you can also run the Kozilek pair.


    Where to even Begin? Sun Titan slots in well with most of the cheap sides of the ramp/draw packages, especially since he can bring back lands. I like to pair him with Mirrorpool, since you get to immediately bring it back. He also works well with Emeria, the sky ruin, as many others have said. Emeria Shepherd is all sorts of crazy bonkers, if you hold onto it well. I've also liked Marshall's Anthem as a way to recover post-wipe. Angel of Serenity has also been recommended to me, and despite being high cost has served as a powerful multi-utility card. Multiple cards exist to recover artifacts, creatures, and enchantments, in single or in mass. I personally am a fan of Salvage Scout, since mono color decks run a lot of artifacts, and he is quickly returned by Sun Titan, or Sword of Light and Shadow (which is fetched by the equipment package...). Restoration Specialist is a new potential addition as well. Certain powerful spells, like Rally the Ancestors can provide a potent surprise as well, especially as you return some of your other recursion pieces to bring stuff back permanently, and use a sac outlet to not lose yours, or use blink effects/Teferi's protection in response to the delayed trigger... etc.

    In the lands section, I like to add Buried Ruin, and even sometimes Haunted Fengraf. Don't forget Mistveil Plains as an option, especially if it feeds back into a tutor loop.

    In short, White has a lot of recursion options that feed into each other and protect each other piece, while also having the capability to tutor/fetch multiple pieces of it.


    White has plenty, so I'm just going to list my favorites:
    Single Creature: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile. Dispatch, Crib Swap, Declaration in stone.
    Single Artifact/Enchantment: Return to Dust, Banishing Stroke
    Attack Deterence: Wing Shards, Dispense Justice, Settle the Wreckage
    Mass: Rout, Tragic Arrogance, Hour of Revelation, Hallowed Burial, Akroma's Venceance, Austere Command, Descend upon the Sinful
    Mass Enchantment/Artifact: (of those not included above) Patrician's Scorn.
    Colorless: All is Dust, Oblivion Stone, Ugin. (stone can be recured, Other two, you likely have more artifacts/colorless than most).
    Grave Hate: Hallowed Moonlight, Rest in Peace, Containtment Priest, Scavenger Grounds, Angel of Serenity, Stone Cloaker.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Razaketh, the foulblooded
    I have gotten very tired of seeing Razaketh, the foulblooded. Maintaining a few tokens is not difficult, and even maintaining several handfuls is trivial in this kind of format. The lack of mana cost on his ability means that even with no other mana sources, you can drop him ASAP and sculpt your hand for just a few life. This kind of card advantage feels very reminiscent of Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's Bargain. The life cost is steeper, but you also get to activate it less, since you are tutoring for exactly the cards you need, and don't have to worry about dead draws.

    I'm curious to other people's thoughts and impressions though:
    • Is the creature sacrifice enough of a drawback to make it a reasonable ability?
    • Is his high cost enough to push him into 'safe' territory?
    • What are the general reactions when he drops?
    • How much value does he typically get? Does he win/end games?
    • Is he exciting?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Food Chain
    My general thoughts on Food Chain is that it isn't a card that gets 'accidentally' broken/abused. It doesn't do anything super terribad when used fairly, or even moderately, and if you're combo-ing off with it - you know exactly what you're doing. Even the most obvious uses, such as those creatures you can cast from exile - if you add that pair into your deck, you know exactly what you're doing, and what the expected result is. There's no surprises.

    To that end, it's not really any worse than most other infinite mana combos, or which there are many.

    If you add it into your deck, you know that whether it's there to be a quirky ramp card, or if it's there to be an infinite combo - there's not much middle ground. And if you add it as an infinite combo, there's no "oops" situation there - you know full well it will infinite, and by that point, you should know exactly where your playgroup stands on such matters.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on What stories have stayed with you over the test of time?
    Quote from LouCypher »
    That one time where I aimed my Emrakul, the Promised End's ability at the Karametra, God of Harvests player who had been exploding onto the board. He had a Panharmonicon, among other things.

    I move to his side of the table, examine his hand and the field and formulate a plan in my mind. That plan went out of the window as I drew Tooth and Nail. Casting it entwined, grabbing Avenger of Zendikar and Regal Force, causing him to deck out due to the double tokens followed by double Force draw. Calmly handed him his cards back and went to sit back down while he just looked at me going "You can't do that..."

    Way back when, there was one player who ran a mindslaver - no lock, no recursion or anything. Just a literal one shot effect to mess with a boardstate. Coincidentally, 3 times in a row that he aimed it at my Nemata deck, I had a Chain of Acid in hand. He was kind enough to leave me my lands, but that was it.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    Quote from Weebo »
    Probably not an interesting data point for the wider format because I don't think anyone would be actively trying to break them, but we'll see.

    TBH, that's probably the best data point then.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on What stories have stayed with you over the test of time?
    We've all seen the crazy plays thread, or gotten to brag about a cool winning board state... But a lot of these flash in the can moments can simply vanish into the obscurity without really being memorable. Your big creature finish might just vanish into obscurity with other similar overrun stories.

    What moments are truly memorable to you?

    Here are a few of mine to get things started:

    • I was playing Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient. This was early in construction, so I was often taking votes on cards to add/remove. One player voted in The Hive. In the subsequent game, I managed to cast The Hive, and thanks to Bludgeon Brawl equipped the hive onto its own wasp token, and beat people up with a wasp bludgeoning people with it's own hive.
    • Another Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient game, I managed to put a Gauntlet of Might onto a Prototype Portal, but unfortunately had no cards in hand, so was unable to do anything with my massive amounts of mana, except make more and more Gauntlet of Might tokens. Finally, about 17 Gauntlets of Might later I drew a Power Matrix, and was able to start one-shotting people with a very scary commander.
    • Finally, the most infamous one was me piloting my Chainer, Dementia Master deck, and having a very rough time, getting beat down by pretty much everybody. Down to 5 life, with no cards in hand, an opponent decides to take pity and spare me going "I'll give him one more turn, what's the worst that could happen?" One lucky topdeck, and and I rebuild an insane board presence, drain everyone for 20+ life, (but fail to kill anyone), and it takes all 3 players conspiring together to make a Commander large enough and unblockable to kill me. Since then "One more turn, what's the worst that could happen" has become a lasting catch-phrase at my LGS, for several years now.

    So what are YOUR truly lasting memorable stories?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Found my commander but can't make a deck around them.
    A fairy tribal deck sounds interesting and I think a token/milling deck would be the most fun for me personally. I also like to stop others peoples threats rather then pillow forting.

    To me, this sounds like you want to start more casual - you can always increase power far more easily. You may also want to go more token-build, with various anthems or ways to use creatures entering the battlefield, while avoiding infinite combos.

    Dire Undercurrents is an immediate first thought for me, though the discard half might be a bit brutal. Kindred Discovery does much the same for you as well, though would be specific to a more tribal route. Bident of Thassa and Coastal Piracy seem like good token strategy cards for card draw. Of course, skullclamp will always be an allstar.

    Favorable Winds, Grand Architect, Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun, etc, can make for good lord effects.

    Of course, you'll want a bit of redundancy with your commander for token generation in case your Commander gets removed a few times. Talrand, Sky summoner, Docent of Perfection, Bloodline Keeper, Cemetery Reaper, etc, can help make some tokens.

    You'll want some mana ramp, and I find that Sword of the animist, Burnished Hart, and mana rocks can make a decent start.

    Personally, I'm a fan of Salvaging Station, and the tokens you'll be producing can make some excellent fuel for the station. Blue/Black is an excellent color combination for it, with plenty of tutors such as Artificer's Intuition. Be aware that the Salvaging Station package can usually take up to 10 card slots from you, though each can be individually useful.

    You could also go Blood Artist style routes, but I personally would be more iffy of those, as they can lead to un-interactive styles - As a sub theme, it could be a potent alternate win though - to make sure you'll have options.

    Removal will be primarily in black, though Blue can offer things like Curse of the Swine. Artifacts and enchantments will be an issue, so you may need some colorless options like Scour from existence.

    I don't want to go too far into building a deck - but my initial thoughts personally take it in a very artifact-centric token direction, and looks like this, take from it what you like:
    Some parts will obviously need to be removed, or changed, such as Talrand or Metallurgic Summongings if the decks ends up spell light, or Sai, if it ends up artifact light - Those probably offer a choice of a split in how you want to build your deck.

    OonaMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    6 Oona, Queen of the Fae

    1 Chromatic Sphere
    1 Chromatic Star
    1 Conjurer's Bauble
    1 Wayfarer's Bauble
    1 Executioner's Capsule
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Scrabbling Claws
    1 Phyrexian furnace
    1 Universal Solvent
    1 Skullclamp
    2 Sword of the Animist
    2 Spawning Pit
    2 Thaumatic Compass
    3 Proteus Staff
    4 Bident of Thassa
    5 Gauntlet of Power
    6 Caged Sun
    6 Salvaging Station
    7 Summoning Station
    7 Spine of Ish Sah

    Mana Rocks
    1 Sol Ring
    2 Mind Stone
    2 Felwar Stone
    2 Dimir Signet
    3 Commander's Sphere
    3 worn powerstone
    3 Darksteel Ingot

    2 Nezumi Graverobber
    2 Oona's Blackguard
    3 Burnished Hart
    3 Sai, Master Thopterist
    3 Trinket Mage
    3 Trophy Mage
    3 Treasure Mage
    3 Chasm Skulker
    3 Grand Architect
    3 Thief of Sanity
    3 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
    4 Solemn simulacrum
    4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
    4 Bloodline Keeper
    4 Faerie Artisans
    4 Golden Guardian
    4 Orc Sureshot
    5 havengul Lich
    6 Grave Titan
    6 Frost Titan
    7 Abhorrent Overlord

    1 Undying Evil
    1 Supernatural stamina
    2 Cyclonic Rift
    3 Murder
    4 Silence the Believers
    4 Memory Plunder
    7 Scour from Existence

    3 Mnemonic Betrayal
    4 Mutilate - deals with indestructible
    9 Connive/Concoct
    2x Black Sun's Zenith
    2x Curse of the Swine

    2 Artificer's Intuition
    2 Favorable Winds
    2 Search for Azcanta
    4 Death Pit Offering
    5 Coastal Piracy
    5 Dire Undercurrents
    5 Metallurgic Summonings

    5 Tezzeret the seeker
    5 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
    6 Tezzeret, Master of Metal
    6 Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge
    6 Vraska, Scheming Gorgon

    0 Bojuka Bog
    0 Scavenger Ground
    0 Buried Ruin
    0 Seat of the Synod
    0 Vault of Whispers
    0 Darksteel Citadel

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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