Alright guys, I've banned Karakas due to overwhelming pressure (banning it is easier than issuing errata). Hope you're happy!
I would have really liked to use the legacy ban list card-for-card and just tested Karakas out. I still believe there are ways to deal with Karakas that aren't being explored, but perhaps that will have to wait until a later date.
I still disagree with the 20 life rule, especially if the General Damage stays set at 21 life.
The only time that the General damage even becomes a factor in that situation is in the case where your opponent is playing an obscene amount of life gain and you can't beat him with traditional aggro, combo, or control strategies.
The 21 general damage is more of a just-in-case thing.
The argument that the amount of general damage needed to kill someone should be scaled down because regular life totals are scaled down is not analogous.
The 40-21 totals are balanced around multiplayer, not dueling, so a direct reduction would not be balanced the same way.
It's also worth noting that 20 life will make Karakas even more of a non-factor as tutors might need to be spent on Maze of Ith or Wrath of God (so you don't die) rather than Karakas.
If the side arguing for a Legacy list prevails, would the list eventually be open to revision, or would there just be a policy of "Oh it's banned in Legacy so it's banned here too"?
Some cards are banned because a critical mass of them enables broken card draw engines. However, restricted to a single copy, they aren't problematic at all. For an example, take a look at Gush in Vintage: as a 4-of, it enables powerful decks; when it is put on the restricted list, it drops off the map entirely. Would things like Gush really be stuck on an EDH banned list forever, or would concessions/adjustments be made where appropriate?
Ideally, if the Legacy Banned list works out well, we can just continue using it.
There are some cards on the Legacy Banned list that don't necessarily need to be there for 1v1 EDH (hell, there are some there that don't need to be on the Legacy banned list at all -- Earthcraft anyone?).
There are also some cards that are not on the Legacy Banned list that might prove too problematic (Karakas).
The point of the list is to hopefully make it so no concessions or adjustments have to be made. Hopefully Karakas won't be too overpowering and people won't mourn the loss of cards like Gush too much.
The list is well-known, visible, and maintained by WotC, that's pretty much the definition of what we want in a ban list for 1v1 EDH. Once we start saying "EDH Ban List, Plus Karakas, Minus Gush, Imperial Recruiter, and Earthcraft" it starts getting very complex, especially with determining who makes the new bans and we're basically back to where we started.
Karakas singlehandedly shuts down generals, inherently format warping.
It goes in every deck.
@ Karakas, it doesn't necessarily go in every deck. It primarily goes in every deck that can realistically tutor for it. That means every Black deck, every Green deck, and well I think you get the picture. Most decks cannot tutor for it reliably, so it is not as huge a threat in this format.
Those decks have to play white to take advantage of Karakas. Moreover, their land tutoring spells have to resolve, and their opponent can't have a Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, Dust Bowl, or tutor for one of those cards (colorless tutors exist).
...They also can just play their own Karakas to legendary rule the other one out.
There are a lot of answers to the card which are unexplored.
Sorry, I thought EDH was based on general...
But I agree, playing good-stuff.deck will contribute much more to the format.
Besides, with the banning of strip mine, it's going to be hard to deal with Karakas ...
I understand the argument behind Karakas being "against the nature of the format," and that we want to encourage people playing their generals.
Not to slippery slope/straw man too much, but some would say that the Workshop archetype in Vintage is completely against the nature of the format -- the entire point of the deck is to make opponents not be able to play spells while you kill them with yours.
Turn 1-4 kills are arguably "against the nature of the format" in Legacy as well. The games are uninteractive and it can be disappointing to some to bring a knife to a gunfight, or more appropriately, a deck that kills with combat damage when your opponent sits down with a rubix cube.
Do these decks make the metagame unhealthy? No. Unless a deck is dominant with one of these strategies and no other strategies are viable, the archetype (or card) is simply strong, not format-warping.
I have not seen a time in EDH when Karakas was legal -- maybe you have. I would like to experiment to see if Karakas is too strong to see play. Is it powerful? Yes. However, you can tutor for Wasteland lots of different ways in green, and everyone has access to Expedition Map. Not to mention that unlike in other formats, not every deck can play Karakas -- only those that elect to play with white generals. People can use generals with ETB/LTB triggers and dissuade enemies from using Karakas.
It's a powerful card, I will easily concede that. However, I would like to see if it is really as strong as some of the detractors believe it is. I hope you can understand this point of view, especially as a direct 1:1 port of the Legacy Banned list would be ideal.
wait, I am confused... 21 General Damage is in effect, but starting life is set at 20 life? How does that logically work? shouldn't general damage be scaled down to match the starting life total (i.e. General Damage should be set at 11 life to win meanwhile starting life is set at 20 total).
Sorry, but I don't think the way you have it set up works. I too am in favor of starting with the standard life rules for EDH. Or at the very least starting at 30 life and having General Damage be set to 16 that would at the very least require two swings of Emrakul as a General in order to win, and two swings of Emrakul as a non-general in order to win regardless. So it all balances out.
Switching life totals and general damage all around is much more confusing than just playing "EDH with 20 life using the Legacy banned list." 21 General Damage is still in effect if people gain life. It's really not that hard to understand.
A 40 life total punishes aggro heavily. A 30 life total is nice because it gives a cushion, but I would like to see a tournament with 20 life to encourage aggro being a real archetype. The vast majority of magic formats (which are 1v1) play with 20 life. There is a reason for this.
Is it very strong? Yes.
Are there ways to deal with it? Yes.
Is it completely format warping? We don't know.
If you want to prove that Karakas is stupid and that porting the Legacy ban list 100% for 1v1 won't work, I encourage you to build a deck that abuses Karakas, win the tournament with it, and then express your concern about the card.
Seems like this will make tutoring generals far more powerful then any others. Given the lack of other tutors. Something to consider.
Other then that I think this sounds like a really good way to balance out the format and stop the growth of 5 color goodstuff decks that seem to be on the rise.
We'll find out what's going to happen with it. If some cards are way too powerful (I assume they will not be, but who knows), we can put to rest this notion of Legacy EDH being a viable format.
Here's the thread, for those of you interested in making a deck / competing.
As per the 1v1 ban list discussion, we will be having the first ever "Legacy EDH" tournament.
Question: What is "Legacy EDH?"
Answer: A potential solution for the myriad of attempts to balance EDH for a competitive 1v1 environment.
Specific pieces of information:
New Phyrexia will be legal.
* Starting Life Totals = 20.
* General damage is still 21.
* Regular Magic mulligans, also called "Paris" mulligans. (random 7 -> random 6 -> random 5, etc).
* Commanders work exactly like they do in EDH. (1 general + 99 card singleton library, basic lands may be duplicated).
If you are still confused, just think "20 life EDH duels with the Legacy banned list." It's pretty much that simple.
*~*~*~*
The following cards are banned in Legacy tournaments:
This tournament will be very similar to the most recent one (link here), with the exception of Cockatrice being the default program. I will update with slightly more information at a later time.
* If you would like to host the tournament (and have more experience than myself), please let me know as I am a bit bogged down schedule-wise but have no qualms about making time to do this.
I will be asking for decklists in a week or two, you have ample time to crack the code of this new exciting format.
I'll be accepting decklists either tomorrow or the day after. That'll run for a week, then we'll have the pairings for the first round posted.
Good luck everyone!
NPH will be legal.
Still working that out, expect "deck registration" to be in about a week to two weeks.
They'll be tucked, just like in regular EDH.
I would have really liked to use the legacy ban list card-for-card and just tested Karakas out. I still believe there are ways to deal with Karakas that aren't being explored, but perhaps that will have to wait until a later date.
The 21 general damage is more of a just-in-case thing.
The argument that the amount of general damage needed to kill someone should be scaled down because regular life totals are scaled down is not analogous.
The 40-21 totals are balanced around multiplayer, not dueling, so a direct reduction would not be balanced the same way.
It's also worth noting that 20 life will make Karakas even more of a non-factor as tutors might need to be spent on Maze of Ith or Wrath of God (so you don't die) rather than Karakas.
Ideally, if the Legacy Banned list works out well, we can just continue using it.
There are some cards on the Legacy Banned list that don't necessarily need to be there for 1v1 EDH (hell, there are some there that don't need to be on the Legacy banned list at all -- Earthcraft anyone?).
There are also some cards that are not on the Legacy Banned list that might prove too problematic (Karakas).
The point of the list is to hopefully make it so no concessions or adjustments have to be made. Hopefully Karakas won't be too overpowering and people won't mourn the loss of cards like Gush too much.
The list is well-known, visible, and maintained by WotC, that's pretty much the definition of what we want in a ban list for 1v1 EDH. Once we start saying "EDH Ban List, Plus Karakas, Minus Gush, Imperial Recruiter, and Earthcraft" it starts getting very complex, especially with determining who makes the new bans and we're basically back to where we started.
Those decks have to play white to take advantage of Karakas. Moreover, their land tutoring spells have to resolve, and their opponent can't have a Wasteland, Tectonic Edge, Dust Bowl, or tutor for one of those cards (colorless tutors exist).
...They also can just play their own Karakas to legendary rule the other one out.
There are a lot of answers to the card which are unexplored.
I understand the argument behind Karakas being "against the nature of the format," and that we want to encourage people playing their generals.
Not to slippery slope/straw man too much, but some would say that the Workshop archetype in Vintage is completely against the nature of the format -- the entire point of the deck is to make opponents not be able to play spells while you kill them with yours.
Turn 1-4 kills are arguably "against the nature of the format" in Legacy as well. The games are uninteractive and it can be disappointing to some to bring a knife to a gunfight, or more appropriately, a deck that kills with combat damage when your opponent sits down with a rubix cube.
Do these decks make the metagame unhealthy? No. Unless a deck is dominant with one of these strategies and no other strategies are viable, the archetype (or card) is simply strong, not format-warping.
I have not seen a time in EDH when Karakas was legal -- maybe you have. I would like to experiment to see if Karakas is too strong to see play. Is it powerful? Yes. However, you can tutor for Wasteland lots of different ways in green, and everyone has access to Expedition Map. Not to mention that unlike in other formats, not every deck can play Karakas -- only those that elect to play with white generals. People can use generals with ETB/LTB triggers and dissuade enemies from using Karakas.
It's a powerful card, I will easily concede that. However, I would like to see if it is really as strong as some of the detractors believe it is. I hope you can understand this point of view, especially as a direct 1:1 port of the Legacy Banned list would be ideal.
Switching life totals and general damage all around is much more confusing than just playing "EDH with 20 life using the Legacy banned list." 21 General Damage is still in effect if people gain life. It's really not that hard to understand.
A 40 life total punishes aggro heavily. A 30 life total is nice because it gives a cushion, but I would like to see a tournament with 20 life to encourage aggro being a real archetype. The vast majority of magic formats (which are 1v1) play with 20 life. There is a reason for this.
Life totals are staying at 20 -- if aggro does very well, perhaps Vendilion Clique can be unbanned -- which is a big step forward.
It's legal.
Is it very strong? Yes.
Are there ways to deal with it? Yes.
Is it completely format warping? We don't know.
If you want to prove that Karakas is stupid and that porting the Legacy ban list 100% for 1v1 won't work, I encourage you to build a deck that abuses Karakas, win the tournament with it, and then express your concern about the card.
I wonder if every Sharuum player simultaneously high-five'd each other telepathically.
Starting life total is 20.
Mulligans will be regular Paris mulligans. (random 7 -> random 6 -> random 5, etc).
These two points are more similar to Legacy than actual EDH, but these will serve best as being like regular magic, especially to newcomers.
Generals work the same way as in EDH.
Thanks for the questions, I'll update the original post.
We'll find out what's going to happen with it. If some cards are way too powerful (I assume they will not be, but who knows), we can put to rest this notion of Legacy EDH being a viable format.
Here's the thread, for those of you interested in making a deck / competing.
Question: What is "Legacy EDH?"
Answer: A potential solution for the myriad of attempts to balance EDH for a competitive 1v1 environment.
Specific pieces of information:
New Phyrexia will be legal.
* Starting Life Totals = 20.
* General damage is still 21.
* Regular Magic mulligans, also called "Paris" mulligans. (random 7 -> random 6 -> random 5, etc).
* Commanders work exactly like they do in EDH. (1 general + 99 card singleton library, basic lands may be duplicated).
If you are still confused, just think "20 life EDH duels with the Legacy banned list." It's pretty much that simple.
*~*~*~*
The following cards are banned in Legacy tournaments:
* Amulet of Quoz
* Ancestral Recall
* Balance
* Bazaar of Baghdad
* Black Lotus
* Black Vise
* Bronze Tablet
* Channel
* Chaos Orb
* Contract from Below
* Darkpact
* Demonic Attorney
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor
* Earthcraft
* Falling Star
* Fastbond
* Flash
* Frantic Search
* Goblin Recruiter
* Gush
* Hermit Druid
* Imperial Seal
* Jeweled Bird
* Land Tax
* Library of Alexandria
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Drain
* Mana Vault
* Memory Jar
* Mind Twist
* Mind's Desire
* Mishra's Workshop
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Mystical Tutor
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids
* Rebirth
* Shahrazad
* Skullclamp
* Sol Ring
* Strip Mine
* Survival of the Fittest
* Tempest Efreet
* Time Vault
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Timmerian Fiends
* Tinker
* Tolarian Academy
* Vampiric Tutor
* Wheel of Fortune
* Windfall
* Worldgorger Dragon
* Yawgmoth's Bargain
* Yawgmoth's Will
In addition to these cards, the following cards will be banned:
* Karakas
In addition to these cards, the following cards are banned as generals:
* Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
* Vendilion Clique
*~*~*~*
This tournament will be very similar to the most recent one (link here), with the exception of Cockatrice being the default program. I will update with slightly more information at a later time.
* If you would like to host the tournament (and have more experience than myself), please let me know as I am a bit bogged down schedule-wise but have no qualms about making time to do this.
I will be asking for decklists in a week or two, you have ample time to crack the code of this new exciting format.