I have to say that Stirrings has restrictions on card colors, not types to make this conversation look sane.
Its not a relevant deck building restriction any more than CoCo or Azcanta have restrictions. Artifacts, Lands, Creatures, Spells and Planeswalkers. Stirrings can find those card types, based on a colourless restriction that is, based on its inclusion in multiple tier 1 archetypes, irrelevant.
Yes CoCo and Azcanta are good comparisons as restrictions and while Stirrings costs 1, Coco is a instant card advantage and Azcanta is huge card advantage. I agree with wizards the restriction is real, to make Stirrings work you need a green heavy (to enable t1-t2 Stirrings) and colorless deck at the same time. When they say restriction, I think they compare it something like Ponder which doesnt have restrictions at all.
Yeah, the spirit of why they consider it ok makes sense when you have a small format but in current Modern, the effect is too powerful since the cost isn't as big as it may seem, take a look at Hardened Scales for instance, the only cards that can't be picked with Stirrings are other Stirrings and Hardened Scales, everything else can be picked.
Now look at Tron, the only cards Stirrings doesn't find are other Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying.
Both of these decks could work fine without the card as it is not a combo piece or even required to their gameplan, it's basically making these decks so consistent since they can always find whatever they need if it's in the top5 cards for just G, if it dig 3 cards it might be ok but 5 is way too much.
I think Ponder and Preordain would be problematic (Storm and Phoenix decks would improve a lot and these cantrips would be automatic 4-ofs in any blue deck) so they should remain banned, I understand that Stirrings is a bit different but don't be fooled to think Stirrings is OK just because Ponder is better, it is too easy to fit Stirrings in powerful decks like the 2 I mentioned before to make them consistent and that's why I think Stirrings should be banned.
Nice to see that they addressed community concerns about stirrings by painting it in a positive light (while also mentioning that they'll keep an eye on it). Can't say fairer than that.
Also, as an owner and player of KCI. thank goodness. I'm freeeeeeeee
Yeah, I am glad they finally talked about cards they are watching, at least now the idea of "They shouldn't say nothing as there would be too much speculation" can be debunked and we can get some insights in those "no changes" announcements
So next B&R is March 11th, this is followed by 3 gps in the same month for modern. Not saying it means anything but just throwing it out there since an unban is a way to upset the meta without killing peoples decks outright
Because of those 3 GPs and the fact that today there were changes, I could certainly bet that the next announcement is going to be "No changes" unless some absurd broken deck surges like Eldrazi Winter did
unfortunately the damage has already been done. both versions of sfm spiked by roughly 35% when they had barely moved at all prior to that.
oh well, still hope the card gets unbanned.
Maybe it's because I don't trade but wouldn't it make more sense for speculators to mass-buy the mythic card that is probably going to see more play than it does now if SFM gets unbanned? Batterskull
Maybe drs is something we need. Help vs gy decks, help vs aggro, and make some midrange decks have a little more chance. I realize how toxic it could be but modern imo is already there.
I would love to play DRS again but I am afraid WotC is not even close to consider him for Modern when he has been recently banned in Legacy. He really helps with most of the problems the format is facing but in the long run, I am afraid it would limit deckbuilding -> You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
WoTC could also take it to the extreme and ban deceiver exarch, pestermite, and bounding krasis when they unban twin. That leaves only midnight guard and village bell-ringer as the creature pieces in the splinter twin combo.
That's totally overkill. Exarch could make sense, is the only creature that survives Lightning Bolt and would force players to play 4 Pestermite
Anyway, if they decide to unban it, why would something else need to be banned immediately? We don't know what would happen and banning things "just in case" is definitely not going to build trust with the players.
The price for banning Twin was very high. It nuked an entire deck and lots of people lost their petdeck. So from Wotc point of view is it really worth it to unban Twin?
What if Twin is rly too good? They would have to ban it again. Now imagine that outrage, because unlike GGT an entire deck lives and dies with 1 ban/ unban.
Those arguments were made for Jace. "What if it was too good so they would have to ban it again? People would be salty for investing in a card to get it banned again"
WotC took the courage to unban Jace as they believed if was safe for the format and ignored some market considerations (they ignored the "what if it had to be banned again" part, they just sold printed some more JTMS to "help supply"). If they consider Twin should be unbanned, they should not hold that decission because "maybe it would become too good and we have to ban it again and people are going crazy" as they didn't do that with Jace.
Regarding what would happen if it's too good? First, we'd have to see, maybe it's too good, maybe not.
In the case it's too good, many other people have suggested what I believe is the best idea: banning one of the creatures would make the deck worse without killing it completely, Deceiver Exarch being the most likely one.
Dredge lives on because there are more than just 2 dredgers and the mechanic itself is an enabler, not a piece of a two-piece combo so they are replaceable with one another, just slightly worse. The only replacement for Twin is Kiki-Jiki so the comparison with Dredge and GGT doesn't seem fair
to the guy who wanted manamorphose banned, Why ban manamorphose over looting? It just nets even on mana and cards unlike looting which enables 10 power into play turn 1 to 2? Storms not even a good deck anymore
Cause a Looting ban hits way more decks way harder than Manamorphose (which would hurt Phoenix by a lot and basically kill Storm). That would be the ban, if you would want to nerf Phoenix, cause it would have the least impact otherwise on the format (cause it only hits Storm and some very fringe decks).
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: Totally agree with @gkourou btw, while I would love to play against Twin again (cause it was such a good match-up ), especially the Grixis version would be problematic nowadays, Push and Cast Down fixes so many problems the deck previously had.
I don't think there needs to be any ban right now but if there would be the need for a ban, shouldn't we aim at the core of the issue? Cantrips are quite easily replaceable so the deck would still be able to perform really well. Take Treasure Cruise as an example, people were already happy to play fetchlands and cantrips in their Delver xerox decks, getting an almost free payout was what made those decks busted, and they banned the busted payout card, not one random enabler that didn't see more than fringe play before the busted card was printed so in that scenario it would make much more sense to ban Arclight Phoenix and not Manamorphose
@gkourou Saying Grixis Twin is better since it has access to Fatal Push and that it would be the best deck of a format that doesn't even exists yet is quite absurd. First you ignore the problems that come from a 3-color manabase and the choices you would have to make while deckbuilding that will likely affect how the deck performs, it isn't very clear to me that would be the path, I could envision wanting black for discard to protect the combo, not for cheap removal. But the most shocking thing for me is that you think you can foresee what the best deck would be when we have absolutely no idea how the format would shape if that would be the case. Who expected KCI to become such a powerful deck when Scrap Trawler was printed? I would guess not many people. And it's the same with most previous unbans: WotC unbans Bitterblossom -> People go crazy thinking Faeries is going to be insane -> Tier 2 deck at best
Game 3: Crazy close game. He gets Chalice down on one, but a turn too late. He controls the board until I get Frenzy down and play some cards. He plays bridge with 0 cards in hand and has an Eidolon of the Revel on the board preventing me from attacking or playing any cards. I know that under the Frenzy I have one artifact removal spell in hand so eventually I decide to destroy Frenzy to get the cards back. Destroying the bridge and getting some creatures out leaves me at exactly 1 life. He sacs his Chandra for her ultimate Emblem (deal 5 whenever you cast a spell). Due to Eidolon my clock is slow needing at least 2 turns to kill. He draws land two turns in a row. My face ->
Wouldn't you have lost if he did the +1 ability to deal 2 damage instead of the emblem?
As someone who faces affinity all the time, how much does grave hate affect the hardened scales build? I am wondering if it's worth siding Leyline of the Void in.
Sometimes it does a lot (Modular & Hangarback), sometimes it does nothing (everything else). I think it's not worth it, you are better off trying to clear the board and keeping Fatal Push or some other non-damage removal spell for the last creature with all the modular counters
Well, I've decided to pull the trigger and trade out of Cheeri0s and into Grishoalbrand as my "linear people out" deck. Can't resist $15 Goryo's and Breaches. Sorry @ktkenshinx, I've failed you :'(
Sideboarding isn't supposed to be a bunch of silver bullets to cover your back against all other decks. It's supposed to help you in matchups where you have a disadvantage. That's why a card like Abrade is actually a lot better than Stony Silence.
That's how I think it should be. The problem is that right now, broad answers are not enough to deal with specific strategies, Abrade is not enough to deal with artifact strategies so if you are playing red and have to deal with them you are more likely to need Shattering Spree or Ancient Grudge if you can play green. The same happens when you compare vs other strategies, a card like Rakdos Charm should be a sideboard all star since it's so versatile but unfortunately none of it's modes does enough (Dredge can take the exile and rebuild, artifact decks get 1for 1 and keep doing their thing)
Stuff like that can help with the sideboard planning and hopefully show that things can actually be beaten.
What is a bit weird/funny, is that decks with a good mixture of say they highest disruption tools (i.e. removals, counters and discard), for example Faeries or Sultai midrange/control, are the ones struggling the most.
Yeah, there are ways to deal with each of these strategies individually but a sideboard only has 15 slots so you are likely going to give up answers for some specific pairings as you are limited in the number of cards you can put in.
Therefore, getting paired vs the decks you have the right cards is going to reward you but you are going to be punished when you are paired vs those decks you didn't have room for hate cards, even if you know what cards are needed for those pairings. If the format was narrower as Standard is right now, you could probably have a sideboard able to cover more percentage of the field since the answers wouldn't be so specific and they could be useful for more pairings.
Gitaxian Probe would going to be banned ultimately. But, kind of the same thing is happening with Faithless Looting also, yes?
Not really, Gitaxian Probe could be played in literally any deck without even using blue mana, the fact that it also let's you see if you are able to go off without being disrupted is also promoting bad play patterns. Imagine playing a GBx deck vs Infect, you didn't draw any removal but decide to keep mana up so they don't go for it. With Gitaxian Probe you are dead as they are going to see you don't have the answer and are going for it without even having to spend 1 single mana. It also fuels delve very easily and now would be busted with Arclight Phoenix as well. IMO, it is a mistake on a similar level as Mental Misstep
Yeah, the spirit of why they consider it ok makes sense when you have a small format but in current Modern, the effect is too powerful since the cost isn't as big as it may seem, take a look at Hardened Scales for instance, the only cards that can't be picked with Stirrings are other Stirrings and Hardened Scales, everything else can be picked.
Now look at Tron, the only cards Stirrings doesn't find are other Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying.
Both of these decks could work fine without the card as it is not a combo piece or even required to their gameplan, it's basically making these decks so consistent since they can always find whatever they need if it's in the top5 cards for just G, if it dig 3 cards it might be ok but 5 is way too much.
I think Ponder and Preordain would be problematic (Storm and Phoenix decks would improve a lot and these cantrips would be automatic 4-ofs in any blue deck) so they should remain banned, I understand that Stirrings is a bit different but don't be fooled to think Stirrings is OK just because Ponder is better, it is too easy to fit Stirrings in powerful decks like the 2 I mentioned before to make them consistent and that's why I think Stirrings should be banned.
Yeah, I am glad they finally talked about cards they are watching, at least now the idea of "They shouldn't say nothing as there would be too much speculation" can be debunked and we can get some insights in those "no changes" announcements
Because of those 3 GPs and the fact that today there were changes, I could certainly bet that the next announcement is going to be "No changes" unless some absurd broken deck surges like Eldrazi Winter did
KCI got the axe and that's just it
We have about 6 hours if I recall correctly
Maybe it's because I don't trade but wouldn't it make more sense for speculators to mass-buy the mythic card that is probably going to see more play than it does now if SFM gets unbanned? Batterskull
I would love to play DRS again but I am afraid WotC is not even close to consider him for Modern when he has been recently banned in Legacy. He really helps with most of the problems the format is facing but in the long run, I am afraid it would limit deckbuilding -> You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
That's totally overkill. Exarch could make sense, is the only creature that survives Lightning Bolt and would force players to play 4 Pestermite
Anyway, if they decide to unban it, why would something else need to be banned immediately? We don't know what would happen and banning things "just in case" is definitely not going to build trust with the players.
Those arguments were made for Jace. "What if it was too good so they would have to ban it again? People would be salty for investing in a card to get it banned again"
WotC took the courage to unban Jace as they believed if was safe for the format and ignored some market considerations (they ignored the "what if it had to be banned again" part, they just
soldprinted some more JTMS to "help supply"). If they consider Twin should be unbanned, they should not hold that decission because "maybe it would become too good and we have to ban it again and people are going crazy" as they didn't do that with Jace.Regarding what would happen if it's too good? First, we'd have to see, maybe it's too good, maybe not.
In the case it's too good, many other people have suggested what I believe is the best idea: banning one of the creatures would make the deck worse without killing it completely, Deceiver Exarch being the most likely one.
Dredge lives on because there are more than just 2 dredgers and the mechanic itself is an enabler, not a piece of a two-piece combo so they are replaceable with one another, just slightly worse. The only replacement for Twin is Kiki-Jiki so the comparison with Dredge and GGT doesn't seem fair
I don't think there needs to be any ban right now but if there would be the need for a ban, shouldn't we aim at the core of the issue? Cantrips are quite easily replaceable so the deck would still be able to perform really well. Take Treasure Cruise as an example, people were already happy to play fetchlands and cantrips in their Delver xerox decks, getting an almost free payout was what made those decks busted, and they banned the busted payout card, not one random enabler that didn't see more than fringe play before the busted card was printed so in that scenario it would make much more sense to ban Arclight Phoenix and not Manamorphose
@gkourou Saying Grixis Twin is better since it has access to Fatal Push and that it would be the best deck of a format that doesn't even exists yet is quite absurd. First you ignore the problems that come from a 3-color manabase and the choices you would have to make while deckbuilding that will likely affect how the deck performs, it isn't very clear to me that would be the path, I could envision wanting black for discard to protect the combo, not for cheap removal. But the most shocking thing for me is that you think you can foresee what the best deck would be when we have absolutely no idea how the format would shape if that would be the case. Who expected KCI to become such a powerful deck when Scrap Trawler was printed? I would guess not many people. And it's the same with most previous unbans: WotC unbans Bitterblossom -> People go crazy thinking Faeries is going to be insane -> Tier 2 deck at best
Wouldn't you have lost if he did the +1 ability to deal 2 damage instead of the emblem?
Sometimes it does a lot (Modular & Hangarback), sometimes it does nothing (everything else). I think it's not worth it, you are better off trying to clear the board and keeping Fatal Push or some other non-damage removal spell for the last creature with all the modular counters
You mean Serum Visions, right? I would love to play Preordain
That's how I think it should be. The problem is that right now, broad answers are not enough to deal with specific strategies, Abrade is not enough to deal with artifact strategies so if you are playing red and have to deal with them you are more likely to need Shattering Spree or Ancient Grudge if you can play green. The same happens when you compare vs other strategies, a card like Rakdos Charm should be a sideboard all star since it's so versatile but unfortunately none of it's modes does enough (Dredge can take the exile and rebuild, artifact decks get 1for 1 and keep doing their thing)
Yeah, there are ways to deal with each of these strategies individually but a sideboard only has 15 slots so you are likely going to give up answers for some specific pairings as you are limited in the number of cards you can put in.
Therefore, getting paired vs the decks you have the right cards is going to reward you but you are going to be punished when you are paired vs those decks you didn't have room for hate cards, even if you know what cards are needed for those pairings. If the format was narrower as Standard is right now, you could probably have a sideboard able to cover more percentage of the field since the answers wouldn't be so specific and they could be useful for more pairings.
Not really, Gitaxian Probe could be played in literally any deck without even using blue mana, the fact that it also let's you see if you are able to go off without being disrupted is also promoting bad play patterns. Imagine playing a GBx deck vs Infect, you didn't draw any removal but decide to keep mana up so they don't go for it. With Gitaxian Probe you are dead as they are going to see you don't have the answer and are going for it without even having to spend 1 single mana. It also fuels delve very easily and now would be busted with Arclight Phoenix as well. IMO, it is a mistake on a similar level as Mental Misstep