@ the Mod: This post wasn't intended to be a solicitation, sorry if that wasn't clear.
I have already decided to keep all of my reserved list stuff, hence it not being the list. I don't really intend to get back into the game, but if I do I will at least have duals.
Any suggestions on pricing guidelines? For example, use SCG prices + 10%? I can hopefully move most of the stuff locally, as I am not interested in selling things online.
I am no longer playing Magic with the frequency I used to and I would like to free up some of the money I put into the game. I don't plan on selling anything on the reserved list or that has long term prospects for gaining value. Below is a list of everything I have that has >$10.
My question to you, is what should I sell and what should I sit on?
For example, Tarmogoyf is an expensive powerhouse now, but it is pretty easy to imagine him looking like Morphling in a couple of years. The fetches are likely to be reprinted but lands generally seem to hold their price or go up. This is where the bulk of my money is anyway, so that is probably the central question. Thoughts or suggestions?
Mod Reminder: Solicitation is strictly forbidden and will be infracted on sight. All trades / sales must be carried out in accordance with MTGS and Market Street rules. - Skies
I remember playing Esper Stoneblade against red stax and it was just a cakewalk after I resolved SFM or Jace. Stax might stomp Tempo/Combo strategies but Chalice/Threesphere aren't very impressive against the control and mid-range decks of today.
Destructive Revelry is good, but it will probably end up being a meta call. I just don't see many enchantments and the ones I do see are typically out of Miracles where I want Grip. The card is good and will certainly find slots in most RUG sideboards.
How are people feeling about Gitaxian Probe? Chris Pikula mentioned that he wanted to find space for a 4th in his recent SCG run.
Originally Posted by mrbig262 View Post
Is it possible to play the BURG deck without Waste Land? Its the last of the big cards I would need...
Thanks!
It is impossible to play a decent tempo deck without Wastelands. They are a fundamental piece of the tempo game plan and I wouldn't play any version of tempo without them.
You just broke my heart! Guess its time to break down and buy them..
You won't regret it. Wastelanding people is one of the more fun things you get to do in Legacy.
This is not a format where you want to be casting Bitterblossom. While it may be viable in some Tier 2-3 decks, there are just better forms of card advantage and token generation available.
that is the common argument I've heard. But, hasn't europe basically been a year or two ahead of us most of the time? If deathrite isn't going anywhere, I don't see why we don't play BURG. It does everything RUG does, but better. It also wrecks in the mirror. It also has a better Jund matchup and a better miracles matchup (miracles is actually on the rise again).
BURG doesn't do everything RUG does but better, it does different things from RUG. 12 one-mana threats is certainly appealing, but DRS is much more of a control/mid-range card. We aren't able to really take advantage of the extra mana that he provides. While his other abilities are useful, RUG has long had access to Grim Lavamancer and it is pretty mana intensive for the number of real lands we run.
I don't think "it's better in europe because more combo" is a valid argument. If you wanted a better combo matchup, you'd be running tarmogoyf.
What? Goyf is your worst card against combo because you never want to tap out. DRS is a one-mana threat that doubles as GY hate (relevant against many combo decks) and also makes your 1-mana counters better. Again DRS is stronger against combo and control, but weaker against dude-based strategies because you aren't able to chump block anything with a power greater than 2. Even then, that is only if you have a thresh'ed Goose. That leaves you unable to chump block for a good portion of most games. Goyf is awesome because he can function as a threat or a wall while Delver gets the work done. I understand if you aren't able to afford Goyf, but if you haven't play tested with a card I wouldn't make claims about what it does and doesn't do well.
Also, I think it is a pretty evident that Europe has a higher concentration of combo players. I have spent hours pouring over deck lists and I see far more combo/graveyard hate in European sideboards than in American sideboards. It is a relevant argument because you don't want to bring an anti-combo deck to a mid-range meta.
Is it possible to play the BURG deck without Waste Land? Its the last of the big cards I would need...
Thanks!
It is impossible to play a decent tempo deck without Wastelands. They are a fundamental piece of the tempo game plan and I wouldn't play any version of tempo without them.
Hey guys what do you think of Ghost Quarter as a sideboard card? It could come in versus decks without basics obv like other tempo decks and deathblade. To low impact perhaps?
It seems pretty narrow and that is not what you want in sideboard cards. Narrow is acceptable if the MU is bad enough and the card is powerful enough, but I don't think Ghost Quarter fits either of those criteria.
I have been playing around with a BURG list.Why don't more people run 4 colour tempo? The deck (BURG Delver) has been very solid. I have yet to be disappointed with it.
I think there are a few reasons you don't see much bUrg Tempo outside of Europe:
- It makes RUG's already fragile manabase even more vulnerable. DRS does some work to offset that, but you can't really do anything to make that manabase not look terrible.
- There are more combo players in Europe and DRS improves your combo MU. Goyf was always a weak link against combo, but a necessary beater against creature decks. More people are on creature decks in the US, making Goyf a stronger choice much of the time.
- I think the biggest problem is that splashing black for 4 DRS/2 Decay doesn't do all that much to improve RUG's bad matchups. What does DRS do against Maverick, Jund, or Nic Fit? Having access to Decay is nice against Miracles, but that deck is on the decline. DRS makes your 1-mana counters better but you sacrifice mana stability and sheer power for that. The Delver/Goyf/Goose trifecta works so well because Delver is good against everything, Goyf is good against aggro, and Goose is good against control. All of your creatures can kill the opponent by themselves.
Don't get me wrong, DRS is an amazing card I just don't think it does what RUG is trying to achieve. It loses a fair bit of power when you aren't using him to ramp into higher CMC bombs.
Its labeled as just "Storm" and its basically Grim Tutor ANT, but with no Ad Nauseam! It did pretty well too, getting 15th place. I have played around with UBW Storm lists that try to abuse Iggy Loops with chant effects and no Ad Nauseam, with varying success, but i have never tried anything quite like that Wilson Hunter build. Its definitely interesting.
I like your list. I am torn between wanting the flexibility that BW offers and the sideboard options you get out of green. I don't really like Carpet of Flowers, but Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay are both awesome. Swarm makes Show and Tell much better and Decay is just so flexible. Without BW, you can't answer hatebears Game 1, but meh.
Carsten Kotter posted an article last week on using Lim Dul's Vault as additional tutors in ANT. I don't remember if it is in the article or the ANT thread on the source, but somewhere there is a discussion about dropping MD Ad Nauseam for Empty. I like the idea of having access to Empty because it makes certain hands so much better. It might just be a meta thing. I don't think I like a list with both Tendrils and Empty main.
I have thought a fair bit about this myself because I am in a similar position. I am playing less Magic and really wanted a to go "all-in" on a single Legacy deck because I simply don't have the time, money, nor energy to put into metagaming anymore. However the Legacy metagame shifts with some regularity and a deck that can seem unbeatable at one point can get totally shut out by a new innovation. If you choose something really linear like Burn or something with big glaring weaknesses like Goblins the metagame can shift to the point that you get crushed every week. I wanted something that was aggressive because anything reactive (Miracles, Blade Control, etc.) would require far more tweaking.
Here are the deck(s) I have seriously considered but have yet to make a final decision on:
RUG - While it isn't an easy deck to pilot, it does get more powerful the longer you play with it. Ever since the printing of Delver, RUG has been a major force in Legacy. Your counters are flexible and Stifle/Waste is just always a solid plan to be on. It can get curb stomped in a mid-rangey creature based meta, and you may not be able to sideboard your way out of it. However given how tight the decklist is, even small changes to the flex slots can tweak the deck to fit different metas. Also Delver + Bolt means that you just get there sometimes when you really have no business winning.
Team America: While this deck hasn't seen as much success as RUG, it has a much more flexible shell. You can tweak your mix of discard, countermagic, and removal for just about any meta while also maintaining an aggressive Plan A in Delver. Given the flexibility of the shell you can swap things out from week to week to keep people on their toes (Hymn when they are expecting Thoughtseize, Stifle vs. no Stifle, swapping out numbers of Goyf, Tombstalker, Clique, etc.). While this might seem like more work, you are really only swapping a handful of cards and maintaining a core shell. This is what I am leaning towards currently as I enjoy fiddling with decks and neither RUG nor ANT have much in the way of flex spots.
UB(x) ANT - Outside of Spiral Tide, UB ANT is probably the most stable combo deck. You actually get to play basics and a ton of cantrips. Unlike RUG or Team America, this deck will be more susceptible to being hated out. While people don't always know how to board against tempo, almost every Legacy deck runs storm hate in the sideboard. If you see much success with it, a local meta could become really hostile. On the other hand, the deck is really stable and just slaughters a wide range of decks. While I don't think the skill cap is as high as RUG, you will see gains over time and increase your ability to play through hate. While it doesn't offer as much variation as TA, you have a decent range of flexibility to tweak the deck for a local meta.
I know that those decks aren't exactly "easy" to play but Legacy is a tough format and most decks that are easy to play also have some pretty glaring weaknesses (Show and Tell aside). If you are settling on a single deck, I think you are much better off choosing something that has some flex in it and a higher skill cap because that will give you more success over time. Anything that is stupid easy to pilot is just not going to be very robust over the long term.
Edit: Show and Tell should probably be on that list but isn't for two reasons: one, I don't own any Show and Tells and will no longer spend that much money on Magic cards. Two, I think there is a pretty good chance that Show and Tell gets banned at some point (not that I think it should be). I don't want to invest a bunch of time in a deck only to see it disappear overnight.
Some people run LftL to either Wastelock their opponents or make their own manabase more resilient. I never liked it, as it always felt way too slow to me, but it has found a spot in a ton of successful RUG sideboards so that might just be a playstyle thing. It is also worth noting that DRS makes it worse.
Gilded Drake is hate against Show and Tell/Reanimator and can have some applications against other creature decks. I think this was better before the advent of Omnitell, now I would rather run more flexible combo hate (Pierce, Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction).
Back to Basics doesn't see much/any play because all of the good blue decks rely on fetch/dual manabases because Brainstorm. The opportunity cost for running additional colors is pretty low but the upside is enormous. Basically you get more out of splashing for extra goodies than you do from running lots of basics to make a hoser work.
The only place Back to Basics could really work is some form of U/W control that is heavy on basics. However most of the lists that want that effect are able to do a light red splash for Blood Moon and Pyroblasts/REBs. It just a card without a good home.
In the Eye of Chaos. Really interesting card for Legacy. I'm even more intrigued by the fact that nobody's cracked the code; I literally couldn't find one deck in any tournament of note that used it.
It just isn't as good as Chalice or Trinisphere. The decks that run either of those cards are inconsistent and therefore see little tournament play. I don't see what In the Eye of Chaos does that those cards don't do better.
I am not a huge fan of planeswalkers maindeck. TA only has a so-so MU against combo and I don't want to sacrifice too much for game 1.
Sinkhole just doesn't seem good enough to be maindeck material anymore and I wouldn't play without MD Forces. Even if you don't see combo, they are critically important in Tempo for their ability to stop anything. 4 Probe/3 Ponder seems bunk.
I feel like there are ~2 flex slots in the main. I am rocking Dismember and Clique in them currently. I am not in love with my sideboard, but that is always evolving anyway.
I have already decided to keep all of my reserved list stuff, hence it not being the list. I don't really intend to get back into the game, but if I do I will at least have duals.
Any suggestions on pricing guidelines? For example, use SCG prices + 10%? I can hopefully move most of the stuff locally, as I am not interested in selling things online.
Green
Red
White
Blue
Black
Gold
Artifact/Colorless
My question to you, is what should I sell and what should I sit on?
For example, Tarmogoyf is an expensive powerhouse now, but it is pretty easy to imagine him looking like Morphling in a couple of years. The fetches are likely to be reprinted but lands generally seem to hold their price or go up. This is where the bulk of my money is anyway, so that is probably the central question. Thoughts or suggestions?
Mod Reminder: Solicitation is strictly forbidden and will be infracted on sight. All trades / sales must be carried out in accordance with MTGS and Market Street rules. - Skies
How are people feeling about Gitaxian Probe? Chris Pikula mentioned that he wanted to find space for a 4th in his recent SCG run.
You won't regret it. Wastelanding people is one of the more fun things you get to do in Legacy.
BURG doesn't do everything RUG does but better, it does different things from RUG. 12 one-mana threats is certainly appealing, but DRS is much more of a control/mid-range card. We aren't able to really take advantage of the extra mana that he provides. While his other abilities are useful, RUG has long had access to Grim Lavamancer and it is pretty mana intensive for the number of real lands we run.
What? Goyf is your worst card against combo because you never want to tap out. DRS is a one-mana threat that doubles as GY hate (relevant against many combo decks) and also makes your 1-mana counters better. Again DRS is stronger against combo and control, but weaker against dude-based strategies because you aren't able to chump block anything with a power greater than 2. Even then, that is only if you have a thresh'ed Goose. That leaves you unable to chump block for a good portion of most games. Goyf is awesome because he can function as a threat or a wall while Delver gets the work done. I understand if you aren't able to afford Goyf, but if you haven't play tested with a card I wouldn't make claims about what it does and doesn't do well.
Also, I think it is a pretty evident that Europe has a higher concentration of combo players. I have spent hours pouring over deck lists and I see far more combo/graveyard hate in European sideboards than in American sideboards. It is a relevant argument because you don't want to bring an anti-combo deck to a mid-range meta.
It is impossible to play a decent tempo deck without Wastelands. They are a fundamental piece of the tempo game plan and I wouldn't play any version of tempo without them.
It seems pretty narrow and that is not what you want in sideboard cards. Narrow is acceptable if the MU is bad enough and the card is powerful enough, but I don't think Ghost Quarter fits either of those criteria.
Here is Florian Koch's latest list. He also wrote an article on the deck for CFB sometime back.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Spell Pierce
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Compost
2 Fire Covenant
1 Notion Thief
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Surgical Extraction
I think there are a few reasons you don't see much bUrg Tempo outside of Europe:
- It makes RUG's already fragile manabase even more vulnerable. DRS does some work to offset that, but you can't really do anything to make that manabase not look terrible.
- There are more combo players in Europe and DRS improves your combo MU. Goyf was always a weak link against combo, but a necessary beater against creature decks. More people are on creature decks in the US, making Goyf a stronger choice much of the time.
- I think the biggest problem is that splashing black for 4 DRS/2 Decay doesn't do all that much to improve RUG's bad matchups. What does DRS do against Maverick, Jund, or Nic Fit? Having access to Decay is nice against Miracles, but that deck is on the decline. DRS makes your 1-mana counters better but you sacrifice mana stability and sheer power for that. The Delver/Goyf/Goose trifecta works so well because Delver is good against everything, Goyf is good against aggro, and Goose is good against control. All of your creatures can kill the opponent by themselves.
Don't get me wrong, DRS is an amazing card I just don't think it does what RUG is trying to achieve. It loses a fair bit of power when you aren't using him to ramp into higher CMC bombs.
I like your list. I am torn between wanting the flexibility that BW offers and the sideboard options you get out of green. I don't really like Carpet of Flowers, but Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay are both awesome. Swarm makes Show and Tell much better and Decay is just so flexible. Without BW, you can't answer hatebears Game 1, but meh.
Carsten Kotter posted an article last week on using Lim Dul's Vault as additional tutors in ANT. I don't remember if it is in the article or the ANT thread on the source, but somewhere there is a discussion about dropping MD Ad Nauseam for Empty. I like the idea of having access to Empty because it makes certain hands so much better. It might just be a meta thing. I don't think I like a list with both Tendrils and Empty main.
Here are the deck(s) I have seriously considered but have yet to make a final decision on:
RUG - While it isn't an easy deck to pilot, it does get more powerful the longer you play with it. Ever since the printing of Delver, RUG has been a major force in Legacy. Your counters are flexible and Stifle/Waste is just always a solid plan to be on. It can get curb stomped in a mid-rangey creature based meta, and you may not be able to sideboard your way out of it. However given how tight the decklist is, even small changes to the flex slots can tweak the deck to fit different metas. Also Delver + Bolt means that you just get there sometimes when you really have no business winning.
Team America: While this deck hasn't seen as much success as RUG, it has a much more flexible shell. You can tweak your mix of discard, countermagic, and removal for just about any meta while also maintaining an aggressive Plan A in Delver. Given the flexibility of the shell you can swap things out from week to week to keep people on their toes (Hymn when they are expecting Thoughtseize, Stifle vs. no Stifle, swapping out numbers of Goyf, Tombstalker, Clique, etc.). While this might seem like more work, you are really only swapping a handful of cards and maintaining a core shell. This is what I am leaning towards currently as I enjoy fiddling with decks and neither RUG nor ANT have much in the way of flex spots.
UB(x) ANT - Outside of Spiral Tide, UB ANT is probably the most stable combo deck. You actually get to play basics and a ton of cantrips. Unlike RUG or Team America, this deck will be more susceptible to being hated out. While people don't always know how to board against tempo, almost every Legacy deck runs storm hate in the sideboard. If you see much success with it, a local meta could become really hostile. On the other hand, the deck is really stable and just slaughters a wide range of decks. While I don't think the skill cap is as high as RUG, you will see gains over time and increase your ability to play through hate. While it doesn't offer as much variation as TA, you have a decent range of flexibility to tweak the deck for a local meta.
I know that those decks aren't exactly "easy" to play but Legacy is a tough format and most decks that are easy to play also have some pretty glaring weaknesses (Show and Tell aside). If you are settling on a single deck, I think you are much better off choosing something that has some flex in it and a higher skill cap because that will give you more success over time. Anything that is stupid easy to pilot is just not going to be very robust over the long term.
Edit: Show and Tell should probably be on that list but isn't for two reasons: one, I don't own any Show and Tells and will no longer spend that much money on Magic cards. Two, I think there is a pretty good chance that Show and Tell gets banned at some point (not that I think it should be). I don't want to invest a bunch of time in a deck only to see it disappear overnight.
Some people run LftL to either Wastelock their opponents or make their own manabase more resilient. I never liked it, as it always felt way too slow to me, but it has found a spot in a ton of successful RUG sideboards so that might just be a playstyle thing. It is also worth noting that DRS makes it worse.
Gilded Drake is hate against Show and Tell/Reanimator and can have some applications against other creature decks. I think this was better before the advent of Omnitell, now I would rather run more flexible combo hate (Pierce, Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction).
The only place Back to Basics could really work is some form of U/W control that is heavy on basics. However most of the lists that want that effect are able to do a light red splash for Blood Moon and Pyroblasts/REBs. It just a card without a good home.
It just isn't as good as Chalice or Trinisphere. The decks that run either of those cards are inconsistent and therefore see little tournament play. I don't see what In the Eye of Chaos does that those cards don't do better.
Sinkhole just doesn't seem good enough to be maindeck material anymore and I wouldn't play without MD Forces. Even if you don't see combo, they are critically important in Tempo for their ability to stop anything. 4 Probe/3 Ponder seems bunk.
Here is the list I am rocking:
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
Creatures(15):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
Sorceries(8):
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathmark
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Infest
I feel like there are ~2 flex slots in the main. I am rocking Dismember and Clique in them currently. I am not in love with my sideboard, but that is always evolving anyway.