The Kytheon is slightly scuffed on one of the sides (it doesn't look like the dude I traded with plays with sleeves...), so I was hesitant for that trade. That, and it's unlikely Kytheon will be played after standard, so I was afraid he might drop in value.
Went 2-2 playing BW. Opened Liliana, the Last Hope and Archangel Avacyn. I was very happy with my pulls. Also opened Eldritch Evolution. In my prize pack, I opened Mirrorwing Dragon. Not amazing, but it was at least a mythic.
Idk, am I crazy to still want the full 4 Colonnades? I don't really find the tap clause to hurt me much, and I almost always want to see at least one each game.
Edit: am currently referring to 24 land build. I'll be trying 23 lands with 4 colonnades soon. Just to see how that goes. My sentiment is still the same, but I could be wrong/stubborn in this case.
Sealed pool felt pretty good -- if not great. Could've used some more oomph here and there, but it was a solid pool with two bomb mythics. Only went 2-2, because I sucked hard. 2nd round game 2, I felt I punted real hard (forgot Avacyn had vigilance, forgot her trigger, made some poor decisions). 3rd game I mulled to 5 and all the hands were terrible. Didn't want to mull to 4 on the draw. Tl;dr: I'm garbage. Props to my opponent though. He played well.
The other match I lost, she was a solid player who also had a bomb-ass pool, with Olivia and Hanweir Garrison. Mad crazy combos with the Vampire that gave +1/+1 to all her Vamps as well. Along with several other solid cards. I never want to face another Hanweir Garrison in limited ever again. Sheesh.
Avacyn and Liliana performed as expected (READ: Amazing). Ruined several people's night with those two. Liliana's +1 controls the board well, even if it doesn't outright kill. Her -2 is a nice form of card advantage. Pretty close to backbreaking in Limited (and we're just getting back 2/2 vanillas with it!). Also gets Delirium going, fuels delve, and can load your graveyard with flashback spells. Furthermore, I like that it basically lets you dig for creatures if you're lacking in bodies; if you didn't draw a creature that turn, and you want more board presence, then -2 and hope you hit one. And it's not like Tasigur, where your opponent gets to choose what to add to hand. To be fair, I found myself +1'ing her a lot, because I wasn't too familiar with this format; I didn't want to get Liliana killed to a shock or bolt or haste creature. Most already know, but her ult is game-winning in most scenarios. Fantastic card.
I really like Emerge as a concept. Seems really strong. Didn't *quite* live up to expectations tonight, but it's no doubt a good/cool mechanic. Kinda wish I had more Emerge cards in my colors. The other 3 Emerge cards were in blue.
Mindbender:
1) Mindbender comes down rather late
2) Good effect, but slightly late; need it to affect the board usually, but it can't.
3) Solid body, but I don't always like sac'ing my guy(s); may just be awkward luck, but I usually wanted to keep the guys I was gonna sac.
Sanctifier of Souls underperformed for me, but it has potential. Faith Unbroken, Haunted Dead, Fiend Binder were great. I can see Fiend Binder being awkwardly bad though; 4-drop, fragile body. Long Journey Home has an average EV but high return ceiling. Blessed Alliance is good, though I might be jaded because of Hanweir Garrison (Alliance sucks royally against that card).
Is snare the best it could be vs. Abzan CoCo decks? I know there are a lot of targets, but I feel like there's times where we can afford to side it out, because that's not really the main cards we care about.
The reason to keep it in would be to combat Tidehollow and Voice. Most of their other 2-drops I feel are more manageable.
The important thing is that you hit the argument on the head. And I have found that many of the people that are saying AV is too slow are people that haven't bought AV/don't want to buy AV. I've seen the same people in other modern threads on this very site saying they aren't playing AV because of the price and then coming in here saying it's because it's too slow.
I never discussed anything outside of the last 2 modern pro tours. Become Immense and Eidolon were both legal and prevalent in those FAST metas, this meta is NOT FAST. It's slow. Jeskai Nahiri has gained a ton of meta share, Jund and Tron also hold strong. The decks at the top are (generally) slow. And as Titus keenly points out no one was complaining that Rev was too slow when it's a MUCH slower card than AV, sure it's an awesome topdeck when you have 8-9 lands on the board but those are SLOW GAMES.
That very same thing happened when Nahiri first started showing up in lists. A lot of people argued vehemently against it, mainly because they didn't have the card -- arguing under the guise that they thought the card was too poor or unnecessary or win-more. And then there's the camp that simply don't want to change even when they had access to it (it's just human nature to resist change).
I really dislike it when debates are based on personal feelings and lack of card availability, as opposed to thorough testing and results.
That's not to say that all arguments against Nahiri were based on this, of course. I'm just pointing out the general "bad" trends and egregious problems with discussing theory and "reporting finds." Don't wanna name-drop, but I see several posters who were very against Nahiri when they didn't have card(s); however, once they were able to test the card thoroughly, shifted their opinions and are on-board.
Some of the arguments were in a similar vein to AV and Rev.
"Without Nahiri, we're win-con-less."
I'm just sitting here going, "Orlly? We had a win-con outside of Bolt-Snap-Colonnade before??"
If anything, the bolt-snap-colonnade was praised and heralded -- and generally much preferred to any other option that others would present before Nahiri was printed (Resto-Kiki, Thopter-Sword, etc.). All of a sudden Nahiri debuted, and we have LESS ways to win the game? Really? When we get a high-utility, removal resistant, game-ending/impactful card that attacks on a different axis meanwhile encapsulated in an incredibly small package...somehow it's harder to close out games than ever before?
I mean, if people said, "We're forced to go with a more tap-out strategy, which makes us a little softer to blue mirrors without Nahiri such as Blue Moon," then maybe it'd at least make a little more sense.
I don't mind counter-arguments; that's how we innovate and grow. But some of these comments just don't make sense to me.
And don't even get me started on the, "They misplayed the card; therefore she's bad," arguments...
Everybody else: "Pro Tour Born of the Gods meta is different from today. Today is fast. Back then is slow."
Tapping Stones: "Yes, true; however, even some of the most recent Pro Tours, such as Pro Tour Fate Reforged aka Eldrazi Winter featured fast decks. During this meta, people were STILL playing the similar builds from PT BNG with similar clunky cards such as Sphinx's Rev. AND YET NO ONE COMPLAINED. My point? I don't get why people are saying AV is slow when Sphinx's was just as slow...and yet people played that card without hesitation. The 'meta is too fast' argument just doesn't hold water here -- not from where I'm standing anyway."
^This is how I read the conversation. Yes, it started as BNG pro tour. But Tapping Stones shifted the conversation (to prove a point) to Fate Reforged. But people were still caught up in BNG talk, hence the confusion. Not really taking sides. Just trying to help clarify what's going on...
I'm curious why Pia and... are in the main creature section. Has that card seen any play in Nahiri lists? I would include Wall of Omens before a card like that.
Yes, Pia and Kira was played by Jeff Hoogland before Ingram won the gp. The card is not bad IMO.
BEARSCAPE: CONGRATS FOR THE PRIMER!!!!
Which tourney did Hoagland place with it?
I think he's referring to when he was streaming the deck online. Maybe he went 5-0 a couple times in leagues, but that's as far as I knew of his success. In paper, he generally prefers playing Kiki Chord, so I don't see him placing with Jeskai IRL.
I thought we voted on this being called Jeskai Nahiri?
In addition the stock list should include Ancestral Visions, at least for now. I also recommend using Jim Davis's list if others agree.
I think Bearscape felt that Harbinger sounded better, when he was proofreading the primer. So I guess his vote changed. -1 Nahiri, +1 Harbinger. I probably would've given the nod to Harbinger as well, albeit it was a close call either way (I like both names).
Comparing Ingram's and Jim's list, though they are both very similar, I also think Jim's list is slightly better. (I'd rather have Geists in my sideboard from Ingram's list though, but he's kinda my pet card. )
We had some discussion beforehand, but they're worth looking into again. Maybe once Eldritch Moon prerelease happens, discussion might pick up more on the card(s).
No on both accounts. Non Nahiri lists make up for less than 1% of the meta game, thus they don't qualify for Tier 2. The thread was also too old to be salvaged.
Not gonna lie, I'm getting pretty damn tired of people coming in *right after* we just had a long discussion about an alternate build and going, "Hey uh, guys, uh, I've been thinking........what if we ditched Nahiri?" Or, "Hey, what if we do Nahiri + Emmy + Kiki + Resto. It's like, totally different from just Nahiri + Emmy." Sometimes I wish they'd just make their own thread in Developing Competitive. I mean, I don't actually mind discussing different builds but man, I kinda hate seeing repeated and tired discussions over the exact same thing.
Will we be talking about sideboards and metas in the primer? Like good match-ups, bad match-ups, general themes when playing certain decks, etc? I know sideboards should be separate and flexible, but for new players, it might be worth suggesting a few semi-staples to get them going.
How vital is the singleton (or sometimes 2 ofs) Arid Mesa? I already broke the bank with Tarns so I am wondering if the Mesa is really a necessity. I play 9 fetches in Jund and it sometimes feel execessive.
My list run 8 fetch (24 lands) and is ok.
Thanks. Do you run Mesas or am I good with 4 Tarns and Strands?
4 Tarns and 4 Strands is fine. When I ran my list in Charlotte, I ran 3 Strands, 1 Mesa, 4 Tarns. So you really only need 8 fetches. Some lists run 9. Even with 8, Mesa is kinda nice, but not at all necessary. Just don't run Polluted Delta if you want to be truly competitive.
I'm going against my own advice though. I currently don't own Scalding Tarn, nor do I want to buy any; therefore, I'm running 4 Strands, 1 Mesa, and 3 Polluted Delta. I'll just borrow them for big events.
3-1 = 4 packs
3-0-1 = 6 packs
2-1-1 = 2 packs
Every other record = 1 pack
I went 2-2 midnight. But Sunday I went 3-1. Opened Mirrorwing Dragon in my prizes first go around. Second event I got the mythic Spider.
Spell Queller
Pile B:
Drowned Catacomb x2
Sphinx's Revelation
___________________
Pile A:
Serra's Sanctum
Pile B:
Cryptic Command (Textless MPR Promo)
I never use Sanctum, but I think the card has a lot of potential. Not sure what to do here.
Serra's Sanctum
Pile B:
Cryptic Command (Textless MPR Promo)
I never use Sanctum, but I think the card has a lot of potential. Not sure what to do here.
Thank you for the prompt response.
Homeward Path
Needle Spires
Mirrorwing Dragon
Port Town
Splinter Twin (Rise of Eldrazi)
Pile B:
Vampiric Tutor (Eternal Masters)
____________________________
Pile A:
Enlightened Tutor (Eternal Masters)
Pile B:
Kytheon, Hero of Akros (Prerelease foil promo)
Edit: am currently referring to 24 land build. I'll be trying 23 lands with 4 colonnades soon. Just to see how that goes. My sentiment is still the same, but I could be wrong/stubborn in this case.
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2-Drop Creatures: 4
1 Moorland Drifter
1 Guardian of Pilgrims
1 Sigardian Priest
1 Lone Rider
2-Drop Spells: 5
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Long Road Home
1 Grotesque Mutation
1 Vessel of Malignity
1 Kindly Stranger
1 Dawn Gryff
3-Drop Spells: 2
1 Angelic Purge
1 Ironwright's Cleansing
4-Drop Creatures: 6
2 Haunted Dead
2 Fiend Binder
1 Sanctifier of Souls
1 Weirded Vampire
8 Plains
8 Swamps
Sealed pool felt pretty good -- if not great. Could've used some more oomph here and there, but it was a solid pool with two bomb mythics. Only went 2-2, because I sucked hard. 2nd round game 2, I felt I punted real hard (forgot Avacyn had vigilance, forgot her trigger, made some poor decisions). 3rd game I mulled to 5 and all the hands were terrible. Didn't want to mull to 4 on the draw. Tl;dr: I'm garbage. Props to my opponent though. He played well.
The other match I lost, she was a solid player who also had a bomb-ass pool, with Olivia and Hanweir Garrison. Mad crazy combos with the Vampire that gave +1/+1 to all her Vamps as well. Along with several other solid cards. I never want to face another Hanweir Garrison in limited ever again. Sheesh.
Avacyn and Liliana performed as expected (READ: Amazing). Ruined several people's night with those two. Liliana's +1 controls the board well, even if it doesn't outright kill. Her -2 is a nice form of card advantage. Pretty close to backbreaking in Limited (and we're just getting back 2/2 vanillas with it!). Also gets Delirium going, fuels delve, and can load your graveyard with flashback spells. Furthermore, I like that it basically lets you dig for creatures if you're lacking in bodies; if you didn't draw a creature that turn, and you want more board presence, then -2 and hope you hit one. And it's not like Tasigur, where your opponent gets to choose what to add to hand. To be fair, I found myself +1'ing her a lot, because I wasn't too familiar with this format; I didn't want to get Liliana killed to a shock or bolt or haste creature. Most already know, but her ult is game-winning in most scenarios. Fantastic card.
I really like Emerge as a concept. Seems really strong. Didn't *quite* live up to expectations tonight, but it's no doubt a good/cool mechanic. Kinda wish I had more Emerge cards in my colors. The other 3 Emerge cards were in blue.
Mindbender:
1) Mindbender comes down rather late
2) Good effect, but slightly late; need it to affect the board usually, but it can't.
3) Solid body, but I don't always like sac'ing my guy(s); may just be awkward luck, but I usually wanted to keep the guys I was gonna sac.
Sanctifier of Souls underperformed for me, but it has potential. Faith Unbroken, Haunted Dead, Fiend Binder were great. I can see Fiend Binder being awkwardly bad though; 4-drop, fragile body. Long Journey Home has an average EV but high return ceiling. Blessed Alliance is good, though I might be jaded because of Hanweir Garrison (Alliance sucks royally against that card).
The reason to keep it in would be to combat Tidehollow and Voice. Most of their other 2-drops I feel are more manageable.
That very same thing happened when Nahiri first started showing up in lists. A lot of people argued vehemently against it, mainly because they didn't have the card -- arguing under the guise that they thought the card was too poor or unnecessary or win-more. And then there's the camp that simply don't want to change even when they had access to it (it's just human nature to resist change).
I really dislike it when debates are based on personal feelings and lack of card availability, as opposed to thorough testing and results.
That's not to say that all arguments against Nahiri were based on this, of course. I'm just pointing out the general "bad" trends and egregious problems with discussing theory and "reporting finds." Don't wanna name-drop, but I see several posters who were very against Nahiri when they didn't have card(s); however, once they were able to test the card thoroughly, shifted their opinions and are on-board.
Some of the arguments were in a similar vein to AV and Rev.
"Without Nahiri, we're win-con-less."
I'm just sitting here going, "Orlly? We had a win-con outside of Bolt-Snap-Colonnade before??"
If anything, the bolt-snap-colonnade was praised and heralded -- and generally much preferred to any other option that others would present before Nahiri was printed (Resto-Kiki, Thopter-Sword, etc.). All of a sudden Nahiri debuted, and we have LESS ways to win the game? Really? When we get a high-utility, removal resistant, game-ending/impactful card that attacks on a different axis meanwhile encapsulated in an incredibly small package...somehow it's harder to close out games than ever before?
I mean, if people said, "We're forced to go with a more tap-out strategy, which makes us a little softer to blue mirrors without Nahiri such as Blue Moon," then maybe it'd at least make a little more sense.
I don't mind counter-arguments; that's how we innovate and grow. But some of these comments just don't make sense to me.
And don't even get me started on the, "They misplayed the card; therefore she's bad," arguments...
Tapping Stones: "Yes, true; however, even some of the most recent Pro Tours, such as Pro Tour Fate Reforged aka Eldrazi Winter featured fast decks. During this meta, people were STILL playing the similar builds from PT BNG with similar clunky cards such as Sphinx's Rev. AND YET NO ONE COMPLAINED. My point? I don't get why people are saying AV is slow when Sphinx's was just as slow...and yet people played that card without hesitation. The 'meta is too fast' argument just doesn't hold water here -- not from where I'm standing anyway."
^This is how I read the conversation. Yes, it started as BNG pro tour. But Tapping Stones shifted the conversation (to prove a point) to Fate Reforged. But people were still caught up in BNG talk, hence the confusion. Not really taking sides. Just trying to help clarify what's going on...
I think he's referring to when he was streaming the deck online. Maybe he went 5-0 a couple times in leagues, but that's as far as I knew of his success. In paper, he generally prefers playing Kiki Chord, so I don't see him placing with Jeskai IRL.
I think Bearscape felt that Harbinger sounded better, when he was proofreading the primer. So I guess his vote changed. -1 Nahiri, +1 Harbinger. I probably would've given the nod to Harbinger as well, albeit it was a close call either way (I like both names).
Comparing Ingram's and Jim's list, though they are both very similar, I also think Jim's list is slightly better. (I'd rather have Geists in my sideboard from Ingram's list though, but he's kinda my pet card.
We had some discussion beforehand, but they're worth looking into again. Maybe once Eldritch Moon prerelease happens, discussion might pick up more on the card(s).
Not gonna lie, I'm getting pretty damn tired of people coming in *right after* we just had a long discussion about an alternate build and going, "Hey uh, guys, uh, I've been thinking........what if we ditched Nahiri?" Or, "Hey, what if we do Nahiri + Emmy + Kiki + Resto. It's like, totally different from just Nahiri + Emmy." Sometimes I wish they'd just make their own thread in Developing Competitive. I mean, I don't actually mind discussing different builds but man, I kinda hate seeing repeated and tired discussions over the exact same thing.
4 Tarns and 4 Strands is fine. When I ran my list in Charlotte, I ran 3 Strands, 1 Mesa, 4 Tarns. So you really only need 8 fetches. Some lists run 9. Even with 8, Mesa is kinda nice, but not at all necessary. Just don't run Polluted Delta if you want to be truly competitive.
I'm going against my own advice though.