I am looking for cards that hurt Hymn/Goyf.
I do not believe that a standard burn deck has better plays than my OddBall burn against Hymn/Goyf.
TRAMD has not suggested any cards that signifcantly help against Goyf/Hymn.
Cheers !
I am playing cards not even listed on the Primer, because they work better for me than the cards that are on the Primer.
I moved on to my choices, after playing the cards on the Primer. (but before knowing the Primer existed)
And, to really appreciate their synergy, it really does help if you play my deck.
Not that I expect any of you to actually do so, but it is true.
The odd cards I play ARE synergistic in some really surprising ways.
Ways that standard burn does not really comprehend.
Individually, each change prolly does not warrant inclusion, but together they work. And I beat all sorts of stuff that Take 3! loses to.
How about.... Silver Knight + Pariah/Worship?
Kitchen Finks / Zuran Orb ?
Massed counterspells prolly beats you guys too.
Don't get me wrong, Straight burn is a fine choice too. I just think mine is better.
The original argument to demonstrate Sonic burst is a Bad Card is to compare it to Incinerate.
Same casting cost R1.
Same Speed, Instant.
Sonic Burst Does MORE Damage!
Sonic Burst eats a random card at casting.
It is not clear than Sonic Burst is worse than Incinerate.
In your decks, yeah sure, it converts an additional mountain into a point of damage for an additional Mana.
In mine Sonic Burst is better for all of the reason you believe my deck choices to be worse.
I accept that some part of my deck may not work, but the rest of it is stronger overall, even with a dead card. Hence Burst working for me, and not you. And, Shrapnell Blast breaks opponents ability to count the damage in my hand. Tap out when I have 2 cards left and you may easily take 10. That just dont happen playing your lists.
Your lists are known.
My deck is WAY scarier to play against.
And, I still do not have enough against Hymn/Goyf.
But, Culling Scales does seem OK. Is that in the Primer?
If you have been playing for so long and have such an impressive collection I am having a hard time understanding why you aren't playing a more competitive deck than burn.
I AM playing a more competitive deck. As we agree, it aint the same Burn. Mine is wild, and oddly consistent. People complain about the Ball Lightnings rather a lot. People online, and my opponents.
If you believe BURN is NOT a competitive deck, YOU are wrong.
Do you realize that you're not always having an artifact for Shrapnel Blast? Do you realize that you're not gonna have even 2 mountains for fireblast? Do you realize that having 2 forgotten cave as your only lands in your starting hand you need to mulligan? Urza's Bauble is even darksteel relic (fodder for Shrapnel Blast) or unreliable card in your hand, then why not it being a burn spell in the first place?
And how's Ball lightning more reliable than price? At least Price WILL deal damage, same cannot be said about Ball lightning... Whether it's blocked, countered or removed, probabilities are that it won't deal 6 damage UNLESS the opponent is very careless. [/QUOTE]
While I am willing to conceed almost all of what you say, I think once again you may be having just a mite too much belief in yourself.
Against my problem decks Pop often does 2-4 damage. Against some it does nothing.
Of course being Instant is great for Price. Price is great! Mostly.
Price WILL NOT deal damage.....against mono Blue, mono Green, Mono White, and people playing some fetched basic lands. Against those decks, often Pop does ZERO damage. Unless it gets used by the sonic burst of cause.
Ball Lightning is more reliable than price when playing against ALL of that.
We are not interested in quite the same things.
"Ball lightning... Whether it's blocked, countered or removed, probabilities are that it won't deal 6 damage UNLESS the opponent is very careless."
Um. This just aint true. I understand your point of view, and disagree.
When I cast Pop and you counterspell, then I cast the Ball Lightning & Fireblast for 10. Sure you might have the solution to that as well.
And playing the maximum amount of "3 damage for 1 mana" -spells gets bad.
Rift Bolt is painfully slow. It has been a problem sometimes.
"You play way too much dead topdecks, you have irrelevant cards for gameplan, you play way too many wasteland targets, you use cards that fuel on other cards (For example, with 2 mana and 2 cards you make 4 damage with sonic burst. Why on hell you DON'T WANT TO DEAL 6 DAMAGE WITH 2 MANA AND 2 CARDS?)"
I spoze it is because it is so much more reliable and far less one dimensional.
Sometimes you want to deal 4 damage, and sometimes 5.
And, I like dealing 5 damage with 2 mana and 1 card (and a Great Furnace/Baubleifneeded)
And can you not see the two are connected?
The best use of Shrapnell blast is in responce to a Wasteland?
Their wasteland being an additional casting cost is rather special, don't you think?
Really early on in this thread are some horrific stats about how often you guys need to Mulligan. I just dont need to anywhere near as much.
" you have irrelevant cards for gameplan,"
I spoze that is the crux.
I expect my opponent to do something, your gameplan is just much simpler than mine.
And, dont get me wrong, I used to play that burn, I just think this is better. Just, maybe not against Goyf / Hymn
But then again, dunno.
If hymn is going to strip cards, I think I would prefer to be looking at 3 ball lightnings over 3 rift lightning.
If Goyf is going to be cast on turn 2, A ball lightning on the play seems a fine play.
If Hymn is going to be cast on turn 2, A ball lightning on the play seems a fine play.
hmmm. Hell Spark just seems so ... blah! and small! I mean, when I was play reckless abandon, sure... but that is R for 4 damage so you would prolly just ignore that too. And honestly, Goblin grenade....
If you don't want to play a different deck, don't bog down your deck with useless topdecks like Dodecapod. Sure on paper it would be awesome if they hit it with a Turn 2 Hymn (or a turn X Hymn for that matter). But how often is that going to happen? And in reality, that's the only way it's going to get discarded. Now you have a 3/3 for 4 clogging your hand and your looking at a 3/4 Goyf. How does that help?
It doesn't.
But. If it does get hit by a Hymn, It might be a game win.
If you are looking at an autoloss, considering way you MIGHT win seems worthwhile.
And your situation is not insurmountable, Price of Progress will hit them for a lot and a bolt or two would put them in Fireblast range which is our goal anyways.
Well, that sounds Lovely!
It just don't work like that in reality.
PoP can do 6 at a maximum. And only rarely at that. But sure. PoP can be a game winner
Ball lightning does 6 at a maximum too, for one more mana, and much more reliably.
I fully understand I am unusal in playing Ball Lightning. Ball is not one of the weak cards in this match up.
I'm honestly more afraid of Tombstalker when playing vs. Team A. a 5/5 flyer is much harder for us to handle as we can't chump it and it would cost us at least two cards to remove. That's why I bring in Phyrexian Metamorph. It's a better option over Dodecapod. At worst just copy their Goyf and block all day.
That don't really make a lotta sense to me.
Everything that stops a Ball lightning, stops a Metamorph.
Lots more things stop the slow artifact creature than Ball Lightning.
Ball Lightning is better.
Trying to BLOCK stuff is kinda Limited …..
& Tombstalker has got me once or twice, but Goyf on turn 2 or 3 is just nastier.
Hellspark Elemental is the best choice. You negate their two for one Hymn and you can get in for 3 when the gettin's good.
I can kinda see that.
Losing the Hellspark to the Hymn and attacking with it does sorta work.
Hellspark has always seemed slower, less reliable and more expensive than Ball Lightning. (that card again!). But In this case, yeah I can see that. Again, STP or similar is effective.
That's why we don't play Ball Lightning. KotR is an instant bolt target. Jitte is always a thorn in our side and I don't know why you are afraid of Swords.
Because on turn 3 the KotR is often too large for a bolt?
& Bolt to the head for the win gets beaten by an STP on their KotR?
& a Jitte on a Tarmogoyf / KotR is a loss.
Ball lightning Works.
Hellspark Twice or Ball Lightning? Almost always the Ball is Better.
But in this case, The Hellspark looks good.
That's absolutely not true. I have literally over 100 games played vs. Team America and The Rock builds and I'd rate the MU as pretty even if not favorable.
Yes, they will draw nut hands, but so will we. They will not always go Hymn/Goyf, just like we can't always burn them out on turn 3.
I have drawn the turn 3 nut win hand.
I was beaten by a Hymn, then Goyf.
What I played last tourney. . .OddBall Red. . .
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
3 rift Bolt
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
3 ball lightning
4 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
2 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 grim lavamancer
1 flamebreak
1 price of progress
1 ankh of mishra
1 Ball lightning
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Anarchy
4 Tormod's Crypt
My Current list. . .OddBall Red. . .
2 Goblin Guide
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
2 rift Bolt
3 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
2 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
4 ball lightning
3 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
3 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 Flamebreak
2 price of progress
2 ankh of mishra
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Culling Scales
1 Shrapnel Blast
I have FAR fewer mulligans because I am playing extra land that can be cycled away.
I have lost to people wastelanding my lands.
I have won because people wastelanded my Great Furnace, and then I Shrapnell Blasted them with it.
Barbarian rings can and do take out protection from red creatures, and deal the last 2 points.
Lots of my card choices seem odd, but they do work.
Lots of unusual & unlucky things can and sometimes do happen to me, that will not happen to you guys. BUT. Mine deals more damage overall, and more are at instant speeds. I am trying for a turn 4 / maybe turn 5 kill.
Turn 3 seems hopefull. My version is trying to get more out of its cards than most. Shrapnell Blast really is greedy, but particularly effective.
My choices are often a bit more greedy. And they all interact.
Shrapnell blast & Bauble go with Barabarian rings.
Sonic Burst works as a clean up card converting the last, dead card into more damage, and triggering the Rings.
Bauble works with the Rings, increases landcount and helps sometimes in really unexpected ways. Just throwing off the opponent with lots of words to read is surprisingly effectice. Shrapnell Blast + Bauble is similar to 2xBolts (well sorta, for 5) but that is the back up plan. Furnace + Blast for the win happens a lot.
Sure, it can happen that a Blast gets stuck. It does happen. But the pay off is there, and for me, has been worth it. I have much more Instant Based damage. This does matter. Magma jet in this is more effective too, since there is much more variety and interaction inside my deck. I spoze that would make the Forgotten Caves better for me too.
Culling Scales is the current Hmmmm card in the board.
It gets Tarmogoyf, Mox, Chill, Jitte, Swords & Prot red creatures....All sorts of stuff. It has worked VERY well in competitive Highlander. I am looking forward to using it to kill COP RED.
& then shrapnell blasting the opponent with it.
Price of progress, flame rift, sulfuric vortex and volcanic falloutAnd . . .Ankh of Mishra, Ball Lightning, Goblin Guide,
& (K Marauder ... well, a bit)
But the ostrich approach works best first.
My problems with Hymn are exaggerated by my decks style, that much is true. I am playing stuff that fits together in a way that you guys just aren't.
But I think you guys are really overbelieving your abilities against Hymn/Goyf.
I have beaten LOTS of Goyf by burning the player.
The problem is Hymn/Goyf together.
Either one is individually good. Together they are back breaking.
And two of either can work just fine as well.
Them . . .
1 cost solution + Fetch
Hymn
Goyf
Is WAY stronger against us than you might think.
For instance, Graveyard when the Goyf is cast is going to have Land, Instant, sorcery... minimum. that is a 3/4
Whatever the Hymn hits may make it larger, and will diminish Burn's ability to kill the Goyf.
They will have taken 1 pain from the Fetch, maybe paid 2 life to counterspell the Goblin guide (or Bolt/STP). Great they are on 17
Red starts with a great hand to Goblin guide, 4 lightning bolts and 2 land
(that is a great hand, right?)
Red goes second and goes
Mountain + Gob G (pop!)
Hymn (drop two cards)
Mountain ...pass ..... look at Goyf, look at 4 Bolts, their 19 life total & lose ...
The suggestion of burn the player is the obvious plan.
It also obviously does not work.
OK, Bolt + Bolt.
.....at the end of their 3rd turn & start of Burns 3rd....
So far used are 2 land, Gob G, 2 bolts and (2 cards lost to Hymn). They are on 17 less 2xBolts = 11 life. (say you got lucky and they removed the GG with a 2 life cost counter)
One of the 4 cards left is the 3rd mountain.
What 3 cards would Red like to be holding at this point?
Say it is 3 MORE bolts. WOW ! empty hand for the second Hymn & top deck a bolt for the win !
On turn 4 they are casting a Goyf, Hymn, STP (on the Ball lightning or Goyf if desperate), Knight of the Reliquary, Jitte or Sword....
Most of those & Burn loses.
Some way of redirecting a burn and the game is over.
Some life gain and the game is over.
Sure, when you Burn obscene amounts of bolts, the game will be close.
But, then Burn loses. Going first, with a good draw, Yeah sure I can see burn taking games. But I did not win when reality arrived.
Guerilla tactics is the card I started with.
Dodecapod is the other one. 5/5 beats 3/4.
Price of Progress is good, and can do 6 damage.
Zuran Orb or Knight of the Reliq can be a real downer to Progress though.
Swamp, forest, Multi = Yay, take 2.
I think I have just convinced myself to take the Ostrich.
Ignore the goyf and point burn at face. You should still win, as discard decks hate it when you get down to the topdeck and burn's topdecks are almost always better than some other decks!
Ignore the Goyf...?
So, you just lose.
turn one they Bolt/StP/ or counter
turn 2 or 3 they hymn
turn 2 or 3 they Goyf
They Win
Trying to burn their face when you are looking at 9-12 damage and they are on 20, just loses.
If the only topdeck you need is 3-6 damage, sure, burn has great topdecks.
If the only topdeck you need is 7-12 damage, you lose.
That situation always seemed to happen against Hymn/Goyf.
This is not a Hymn / Rack style discard, just goodstuff.
And Hymn/Goyf really is good stuff.
I have been having such problems with it I am starting to think just play Goyf.
If Hymn nails 6 damage, and then they play a Tarmogoyf, what does a Burn deck do?
Untap a mountain, play a second mountain ... Goblin guide + burn to kill the goyf?
Double burn for an empty hand and no board?
The same deck playing the new counter 1 cost spell for 2 life or a blue is also surprisingly effective against burn. It is a win against the Guide + Burn solution to the Goyf.
Seriously ..."Keep your Mana curve Low?" just dont work.
I lost 5 straight, and it felt like I could lose a lot more. Often close, but just splat regardless.
The cards that help were the higher casting cost stuff, like Ball Lightning. Seems obvious. If you need something to cast because you have run out of cards, but not land, Ball Lightning is just what ya want.
Or a Rakdos Pit Dragon...
And, I am not talking about a discard deck, just a good stuff deck, with Hymns & Goyf, and cards that support them. It seems as though the power and stability of that deck is just beyond burns' capability.
An active Jitte is just not meant to happen.
So, I go and I do pretty well against most everything.
Leyline of sanctity & COP RED I can live with.
But, Hymn to Tourach is just a problem.
Especially with a turn 3 Tarmogoyf, and a turn 1 bolt.
Is this just a pack up and go home moment, or is there something I can do about it?
Guerilla tactics or Dodecapod seem like maybes, is there something better?
Also, I am finding that an Ankh of Mishra is just the business against Fetch-land stupidity.
Play land, take 2, fetch, take 1, get land, take 2
Now there is some bonus damage a COP Red doesn't understand.
Still want to include Mishra's Factories and Mutavaults, but my build is even heavier Red than yours. (4xBall Lightnings. Mmmmm Chocolate & Salty). Factories especially, since they are artifacts, and I play Shrapnell blast.
Incinerate vs Shrapnell blast is situational, but Shrapnell blast wins.
Hello.
I have joined MTG Salvation purely to point out I am stunned that 130 pages about BURN could exist in one thread. Wow. . .
People that used to play, used to call me "the old Warhorse".
I won my first tournament playing burn 15 years ago. I have ALL of the cards listed in the primer. I agree with pretty much everything in the original post. That in itself is more than a little unusual.
I think the term "Instant" is not focussed on enough. I think Incinerate is a good baseline card, not just because of 3 damage, but also because it says the magic word INSTANT.
Oddly enough, when I built my first "legacy" burn deck, 2 weeks ago, incinerate was something I was focussing on. Well, better than Incerate actually.
I pulled second in my only Legacy tournament so far. (15 Players, Got beaten by Dredge. My, what a lot of funky cards work together in Dredge!)
Unusual cards that I have not noticed so far. . .
Hidetsuguru's Second Rite (awesome 1 off from the board. . .
Furnace of Rath
Forgotton Cave (currently good enough to play)
Sonic Burst
Sonic Seizure
Furnace of Rath is not your average 4 cost bad spell.
Furnace, Fireblast + Fireblast is a quality turn 4 take 16.
Hidetsuguru's Second Rite is the most fun spell in Magic to successfully cast.
It got me a warning for being cast too enthusiasticly.
TEN damage is worthy of consideration. Even if only briefly.
I reckon the basics can get a little trodden on.
I reckon some of the Bad Cards can be stronger than the Good one listed.
But it takes some practice, and requires cards with synergy.
Saying X is Better than Y is easy when comparing Shock and Lightning Bolt.
Saying Incinerate is better than Shrapnell Blast is much more difficult.
5 damage at instant speed is hard to ignore.
Sharpnell, Fireblast, Bolt is 12 points on turn 3
Obviously, having a Blast and no artifact is a problem, and does sometimes happen, but it is a long way from fatal, and often just comes good. mine has slightly more ways to control draw, and problem cards.
The reasons stated for why Red should play just mountains are mostly a fear of Wastelands.
Shrapnell Blast is surprising good as an answer.
Turn 2, I play a Great Furnace, you wasteland it, I sacrifice it and you take 5.
This is good times for the Red Player.
This is not how the Wastelands was hoping that exchange would go.
Urza's Bauble is also a bad card. It just is. But Shrapnell Blast just doesn't work with only great Furnaces. And Bauble does have some advantages that are worth noting. Reaching over and grabbing at their hand is intrusive and rude. Nice people dont do that. Knowing about that card can actually help, sometimes. Filling the graveyard as a zero cost almost cantrip is fine to.
The actual plan with the Bauble is to just cantrip. If a blast needs the bauble to be kept, sure.
The back up plan for bauble is to be used with the blasts. together that works out as 2 cards, 2 mana, 5 damage, INSTANT. not bad as a back up plan. Shrapnell Blast is quite similar to shard Volley, when sacing a furnace, it just costs 1 more, and does an extra 2 damage.
Barbarian Ring does suffer from Wasteland, but it is burn in a land! And it taps for red, and it comes into play untapped. It does obviously clash with Fireblast. Since I am playing far less Mountains, the full set of 4 Fireblasts is not really justified, 3 is far more effective. The second Fireblast is mostly a dead card, for me. Getting to 4 mountains can be a stretch for many other Burn Decks too, this is not just my problem.
Barbarian Ring is partly responsible for lots of the other changes.
It does stuff, like killing protection from red creatures, with Pariah.
Ring interacts with ALL the other changes I play, and likes them.
The traditional reason for not playing Comes into Play Tapped lands is because they bite you when you need the mana now. And fair enough too. But not getting the land at all will kill you quicker, and more dead. For this reason I like playing some Forgotton caves. Playing land that does not tap for R mana is much harder to justify.
Mountain + 6 spells should be a mullingan.
Mountain + 5 spells + Forgotten cave is a keeper.
Ball Lightning is a hammer to the head. It wins games. If it doesn't win the game, it will draw a response. Ball causes lots of damage from a single source. Ball Lightning causes players Fear!
It allows for massive comebacks. It forces players to never tap out.
The last cards I play that you guys don't is Sonic Seizure.
It covers all of the other questionable calls.
It is a remarkable Clean up card.
It covers too much land, and too little, and too many dead cards. ( POP, Ball Lightning, Shrapnell Blast)
My version of burn is very much more interactive in both the cards and players.
My cards interact and help each other in a way that "take 3" just dont.
I think I take less damage than most lists here too, only my Barabian Rings hurt me.
Forcing the opponent to actually do the damage to kill me can easily buy an extra turn.
From the primer. . . "With an optimum 20 lands, mulligans will still happen about 50% of the time,". most of you seem to be playing 19 land, but eh.
I mulligan far less than that. Partly I am greedy, but also I am playing 21 land, and baubles.
And my casting costs are slightly lower than most too, I think.
Wasteland is a real problem for lots of Burn decks, and forces a clean manabase of Mountains, and maybe fetches. That really aint for me.
I have lowered my mana base to 21/56
Most of the ones here are 19/60
Mine = 0.375
Most others = 0.3166666
Difference = 0.05833
Difference x 60 = 3.500
Assuming the Baubles are always cycled, that is 3.5 more land for wastelands to eat.
If I am OK with them using Wastelands to kill my land, both players are at less mana for longer. That is just fine by me too !
I do not like Goblin Guide.
It has been far too generous, and then dead.
What I played (2nd from 15). . .OddBall Red
2 jackal pup
2 keldon marauders
4 ball lightning
3 urza's bauble
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
3 chain lightning
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
4 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 artifact blast
1 grim lavamancer
1 magus of the scroll
1 obstinate familiar
1 slith firewalker
1 cave-in
1 flamebreak
1 pryoblast
1 scald
1 pulse of the forge
1 ensnaring bridge
1 ankh of mishra
1 tsabo's web
2 smash to smithereens
I am much happier with the below list, now that I have some clue of what is out there. . .
My Current list. . .OddBall Red. . .
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
3 rift Bolt
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
3 ball lightning
4 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
2 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 grim lavamancer
1 flamebreak
1 price of progress
1 ankh of mishra
1 Ball lightning
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Anarchy
4 Tormod's Crypt
My list has a much higher damage maximum, than most.
My numbers are just bigger. Things like Shrapnell Blast and Sonic Burst do 5 & 4, not 3 & 3. And as INSTANTS. I do not like lava spike, chain lightning & rift Bolt but they are the right choices, even if they are SO SLOW.
Ball Lightning is easier to dodge than a bolt, but it does do more.
And Haste & Trample are good at dealing damage.
Even with a blocker it is still doing damage, and killing the blocker. Flamewave just dont have take 6 as a back up play.
The Barbarian Rings are just more damage that you guys mostly do not play with.
Mine is a sophisticated Burn Deck, Oddball certainly aint quite like yours.
Played the above deck, went 1 win 3 losses.
1/2 (play mistake lost a game)
1/2 (play mistake lost a game)
1/2 (SNAFU, mistakes a plenty)
2/0
Maybe next time I can remember to actually use the scry effect off Magma jet, as well as using it at the right time. Bolting the player on turn 1 cause I guessed wrong about their deck. Then I died to a Lodestone Golem. and I sideboarded in ONE Anarchy, and missed the right time to play it. And, Waiting until the Pridemage has attacked is not a good idea when you are holding a Magma jet.
So, next time I am planning on playing something very similar, but with a better brain.
Anarchy is too narrow for such an open field.
Tormod's crypt is also too narrow.
I think I prefer the wide open sideboard I used first time.
Going down to 3 Shrapnell blasts seems right. Maybe a couple of other 1-2 card changes.
I so want a 2nd Rite to fit back in. No Mana burn really helps.
You have the Great Furnace as your 3rd land but you dont have Shrapnel. Your opponent Wastelands you and now you're down to one land. Luckily you also have Urza's Bauble. But now you draw Sonic Burst, and you use that, randomly discarding the Bauble. Then you draw Shrapnel, and once again you don't have an artifact to use for it.
Now if your Bursts, Baubles, and Blasts were all Bolts, and your Great Furnace was a Mountain, you could cast all your spells without your plan running into itself.
OK. Um... Look.
"You have the Great Furnace as your 3rd land but you dont have Shrapnel."
Cool.
I have gone take 3, 3 times. & you used a fetch.
I play my third land, cast a Ball Lightning, and Fireblast you to DEATH !
1-2 cards spare.
Next game?
"Your opponent Wastelands you and now you're down to one land."
OK. But aren't you dead already?
My opponent has lost 2 land, and I am playing Burn, with way more land & Baubles. Seriously LOTS more. And when I draw lots more I can Cycle them. Or get my opponent to wasteland them.
And ALL their little mana dudes are dead. Maybe they have mana rocks. not common though. Not feeling dead. Is it my go again?
"Luckily you also have Urza's Bauble."
Cool!
" But now you draw Sonic Burst, and you use that, randomly discarding the Bauble."
Um. No Dude.
I play the Bauble for ZERO.
This is kinda hard to ignore. If I want to discard the Bauble, I spoze I could keep it in my hand. But if a Blank card is better than a coloured in one, sure, I Spoze. I mean, why not play it, use it, and bang in their upkeep?
And, Why am I using the last card first?
Sonic gets used last, or if truely desperate in emergencies.
If I have ONE burn spell and I need to deal 4 points to a planeswalker, Burst is good. Burst is also good as the clean up card. If I draw too many land even after the cyclers, I can convert a blank into fuel. If I draw any of the problems you guys are pointing out, The burst can be used at the end to clear a blockage.
"Then you draw Shrapnel, and once again you don't have an artifact to use for it."
Um, sure, but I am far more concerned about 1 land.
I did some math way back in page 90, I am playing a WAY bigger percentage.
if you subtract the wastelands you wanna type about from my total, it is the same as yours. Provided I accept that the Baubles should be used to draw extra cards, not as Fuel.
The game you are describing will still go Bolt, Bolt for quite a while.
And the second land does come.
My deck is different to yours.
Just is. I have those cards.
I have played your deck. It works.
Hi Kiddies. I prefer my deck. I won my first tournament with burn 15 years ago. :0
Homer Moment . . Mmmmm..... Varchilds War Riders......
And, How do you get away with complaining about the speed of Ball Lightning !
I play Ball Lightning over Sulfuric Vortex or metamorph.
Turn 3 kills seem Pretty Unlikely when playing cards like vortex.
And sure, if you draw the perfect amounts of burn, land, and no opponent interference. Take 3! works a treat.
Out here in the real world life can get a lot more tricky.
This deck is amazingly stable. I have played a whole lot of Oddball combo. Weird Censorific. Combo Burn Red is just So me.
Because your builds are much simpler (Take 3!), they do not have anywhere near the same damage potential. Mine can easily get to 30 MUCH faster than yours. This is because I am expecting to have to interact with something that is not just their life total. But I am completely happy not to.
And, I really dont think "you" understand if you think PoP, then Ball requires 5 mana. PoP is an instant, if you counter it, in your turn, I get to untap and cast Ball Lightning. If you have a zero cost counter, good for you. Maybe this is turn 4 and I pay for your daze. Or you can only counter Non creatures / one costs / two costs / or Instants with your counter.
Magic Geek, here's the thing. Look at how many pages of discussion this thread has, count the number of people telling you the same thing. I mean, you came here for advice on why you were losing to such and such, but instead you've just argued your points, the ones that are causing you to lose.
Yes, the thread has a whole lotta posts.Yes, the primer is good.
Yes, I have played those cards.
The only thing suggested so far that sorta works in Hellspark, and that aint great.
As far as I can tell, standard burn (take 3!) is actually far WORSE against Goyf/Hymn goodstuff.
Topdecking 3 a turn is just not gunna make it.
It's a GREAT resource for people looking to get in to burn. You probably shouldn't be straying from the basics until you've gotten a good grasp on this deck (yes it is possible to be good with Burn, it's not all auto-pilot).
This seriously made me laugh.
How many Arabian Mountains are you playing?
A couple of years ago, I realised I had been to more Nationals than that Judge was Old !
Wow, your attitude changed 180 degrees. If your deck is so perfect, get out there and win some tournaments with it! Thank you for enlightening us with your ideas; there is no need to shove them down our throats.
Big NO on that one.
I am not shoving anything down your throat. I barely know You!
I posted my list because I was explicitly asked to.
It aint the same as yours, I know that, you know that.
Mine is FAR more complex, and harder to play.
& I would love to be winning more Tournaments with it.
Dredge clubbed me on turn 4 of the final. (hence lots of Tormods)
In the next, I lost 2 rounds to Hymn /Goyf, the deck I have been asking for suggestions about. So far the only good advice is Hellspark, and get lucky with a worse deck.
I do not believe that a standard burn deck has better plays than my OddBall burn against Hymn/Goyf.
TRAMD has not suggested any cards that signifcantly help against Goyf/Hymn.
Cheers !
I am playing cards not even listed on the Primer, because they work better for me than the cards that are on the Primer.
I moved on to my choices, after playing the cards on the Primer. (but before knowing the Primer existed)
And, to really appreciate their synergy, it really does help if you play my deck.
Not that I expect any of you to actually do so, but it is true.
The odd cards I play ARE synergistic in some really surprising ways.
Ways that standard burn does not really comprehend.
Individually, each change prolly does not warrant inclusion, but together they work. And I beat all sorts of stuff that Take 3! loses to.
How about.... Silver Knight + Pariah/Worship?
Kitchen Finks / Zuran Orb ?
Massed counterspells prolly beats you guys too.
Don't get me wrong, Straight burn is a fine choice too. I just think mine is better.
The original argument to demonstrate Sonic burst is a Bad Card is to compare it to Incinerate.
Same casting cost R1.
Same Speed, Instant.
Sonic Burst Does MORE Damage!
Sonic Burst eats a random card at casting.
It is not clear than Sonic Burst is worse than Incinerate.
In your decks, yeah sure, it converts an additional mountain into a point of damage for an additional Mana.
In mine Sonic Burst is better for all of the reason you believe my deck choices to be worse.
I accept that some part of my deck may not work, but the rest of it is stronger overall, even with a dead card. Hence Burst working for me, and not you. And, Shrapnell Blast breaks opponents ability to count the damage in my hand. Tap out when I have 2 cards left and you may easily take 10. That just dont happen playing your lists.
Your lists are known.
My deck is WAY scarier to play against.
And, I still do not have enough against Hymn/Goyf.
But, Culling Scales does seem OK. Is that in the Primer?
I AM playing a more competitive deck. As we agree, it aint the same Burn. Mine is wild, and oddly consistent. People complain about the Ball Lightnings rather a lot. People online, and my opponents.
If you believe BURN is NOT a competitive deck, YOU are wrong.
I like your base deck. It is simple and direct.
The weakest cards seem to be. . .
2 Searing Blaze
3 Sulfuric Vortex
In your report, the best either do is get called a seatbelt.
I reckon you would be better off with Ball Lightning, but that is heresy around here.
Also, I think your board needs work, but it depends on what you are facing.
And how's Ball lightning more reliable than price? At least Price WILL deal damage, same cannot be said about Ball lightning... Whether it's blocked, countered or removed, probabilities are that it won't deal 6 damage UNLESS the opponent is very careless. [/QUOTE]
While I am willing to conceed almost all of what you say, I think once again you may be having just a mite too much belief in yourself.
Against my problem decks Pop often does 2-4 damage. Against some it does nothing.
Of course being Instant is great for Price. Price is great! Mostly.
Price WILL NOT deal damage.....against mono Blue, mono Green, Mono White, and people playing some fetched basic lands. Against those decks, often Pop does ZERO damage. Unless it gets used by the sonic burst of cause.
Ball Lightning is more reliable than price when playing against ALL of that.
We are not interested in quite the same things.
"Ball lightning... Whether it's blocked, countered or removed, probabilities are that it won't deal 6 damage UNLESS the opponent is very careless."
Um. This just aint true. I understand your point of view, and disagree.
When I cast Pop and you counterspell, then I cast the Ball Lightning & Fireblast for 10. Sure you might have the solution to that as well.
And playing the maximum amount of "3 damage for 1 mana" -spells gets bad.
Rift Bolt is painfully slow. It has been a problem sometimes.
"You play way too much dead topdecks, you have irrelevant cards for gameplan, you play way too many wasteland targets, you use cards that fuel on other cards (For example, with 2 mana and 2 cards you make 4 damage with sonic burst. Why on hell you DON'T WANT TO DEAL 6 DAMAGE WITH 2 MANA AND 2 CARDS?)"
I spoze it is because it is so much more reliable and far less one dimensional.
Sometimes you want to deal 4 damage, and sometimes 5.
And, I like dealing 5 damage with 2 mana and 1 card (and a Great Furnace/Baubleifneeded)
And can you not see the two are connected?
The best use of Shrapnell blast is in responce to a Wasteland?
Their wasteland being an additional casting cost is rather special, don't you think?
Really early on in this thread are some horrific stats about how often you guys need to Mulligan. I just dont need to anywhere near as much.
" you have irrelevant cards for gameplan,"
I spoze that is the crux.
I expect my opponent to do something, your gameplan is just much simpler than mine.
And, dont get me wrong, I used to play that burn, I just think this is better. Just, maybe not against Goyf / Hymn
But then again, dunno.
If hymn is going to strip cards, I think I would prefer to be looking at 3 ball lightnings over 3 rift lightning.
If Goyf is going to be cast on turn 2, A ball lightning on the play seems a fine play.
If Hymn is going to be cast on turn 2, A ball lightning on the play seems a fine play.
hmmm. Hell Spark just seems so ... blah! and small! I mean, when I was play reckless abandon, sure... but that is R for 4 damage so you would prolly just ignore that too. And honestly, Goblin grenade....
Done that. I have been reworking it on page 90 for a while.
Will try to cut and paste it in a moment....
Hymn/Goyf is not overwhelming, but I lost 2 rounds from 5 to hymn/goyf last legacy tournament.
It doesn't.
But. If it does get hit by a Hymn, It might be a game win.
If you are looking at an autoloss, considering way you MIGHT win seems worthwhile.
Well, that sounds Lovely!
It just don't work like that in reality.
PoP can do 6 at a maximum. And only rarely at that. But sure. PoP can be a game winner
Ball lightning does 6 at a maximum too, for one more mana, and much more reliably.
I fully understand I am unusal in playing Ball Lightning. Ball is not one of the weak cards in this match up.
That don't really make a lotta sense to me.
Everything that stops a Ball lightning, stops a Metamorph.
Lots more things stop the slow artifact creature than Ball Lightning.
Ball Lightning is better.
Trying to BLOCK stuff is kinda Limited …..
& Tombstalker has got me once or twice, but Goyf on turn 2 or 3 is just nastier.
I can kinda see that.
Losing the Hellspark to the Hymn and attacking with it does sorta work.
Hellspark has always seemed slower, less reliable and more expensive than Ball Lightning. (that card again!). But In this case, yeah I can see that. Again, STP or similar is effective.
Because on turn 3 the KotR is often too large for a bolt?
& Bolt to the head for the win gets beaten by an STP on their KotR?
& a Jitte on a Tarmogoyf / KotR is a loss.
Ball lightning Works.
Hellspark Twice or Ball Lightning? Almost always the Ball is Better.
But in this case, The Hellspark looks good.
I have drawn the turn 3 nut win hand.
I was beaten by a Hymn, then Goyf.
What I played last tourney. . .OddBall Red. . .
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
3 rift Bolt
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
3 ball lightning
4 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
2 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 grim lavamancer
1 flamebreak
1 price of progress
1 ankh of mishra
1 Ball lightning
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Anarchy
4 Tormod's Crypt
My Current list. . .OddBall Red. . .
2 Goblin Guide
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
2 rift Bolt
3 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
2 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
4 ball lightning
3 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
3 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 Flamebreak
2 price of progress
2 ankh of mishra
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Culling Scales
1 Shrapnel Blast
I have FAR fewer mulligans because I am playing extra land that can be cycled away.
I have lost to people wastelanding my lands.
I have won because people wastelanded my Great Furnace, and then I Shrapnell Blasted them with it.
Barbarian rings can and do take out protection from red creatures, and deal the last 2 points.
Lots of my card choices seem odd, but they do work.
Lots of unusual & unlucky things can and sometimes do happen to me, that will not happen to you guys. BUT. Mine deals more damage overall, and more are at instant speeds. I am trying for a turn 4 / maybe turn 5 kill.
Turn 3 seems hopefull. My version is trying to get more out of its cards than most. Shrapnell Blast really is greedy, but particularly effective.
My choices are often a bit more greedy. And they all interact.
Shrapnell blast & Bauble go with Barabarian rings.
Sonic Burst works as a clean up card converting the last, dead card into more damage, and triggering the Rings.
Bauble works with the Rings, increases landcount and helps sometimes in really unexpected ways. Just throwing off the opponent with lots of words to read is surprisingly effectice. Shrapnell Blast + Bauble is similar to 2xBolts (well sorta, for 5) but that is the back up plan. Furnace + Blast for the win happens a lot.
Sure, it can happen that a Blast gets stuck. It does happen. But the pay off is there, and for me, has been worth it. I have much more Instant Based damage. This does matter. Magma jet in this is more effective too, since there is much more variety and interaction inside my deck. I spoze that would make the Forgotten Caves better for me too.
Culling Scales is the current Hmmmm card in the board.
It gets Tarmogoyf, Mox, Chill, Jitte, Swords & Prot red creatures....All sorts of stuff. It has worked VERY well in competitive Highlander. I am looking forward to using it to kill COP RED.
& then shrapnell blasting the opponent with it.
& (K Marauder ... well, a bit)
But the ostrich approach works best first.
My problems with Hymn are exaggerated by my decks style, that much is true. I am playing stuff that fits together in a way that you guys just aren't.
But I think you guys are really overbelieving your abilities against Hymn/Goyf.
I have beaten LOTS of Goyf by burning the player.
The problem is Hymn/Goyf together.
Either one is individually good. Together they are back breaking.
And two of either can work just fine as well.
Them . . .
1 cost solution + Fetch
Hymn
Goyf
Is WAY stronger against us than you might think.
For instance, Graveyard when the Goyf is cast is going to have Land, Instant, sorcery... minimum. that is a 3/4
Whatever the Hymn hits may make it larger, and will diminish Burn's ability to kill the Goyf.
They will have taken 1 pain from the Fetch, maybe paid 2 life to counterspell the Goblin guide (or Bolt/STP). Great they are on 17
Red starts with a great hand to Goblin guide, 4 lightning bolts and 2 land
(that is a great hand, right?)
Red goes second and goes
Mountain + Gob G (pop!)
Hymn (drop two cards)
Mountain ...pass ..... look at Goyf, look at 4 Bolts, their 19 life total & lose ...
The suggestion of burn the player is the obvious plan.
It also obviously does not work.
OK, Bolt + Bolt.
.....at the end of their 3rd turn & start of Burns 3rd....
So far used are 2 land, Gob G, 2 bolts and (2 cards lost to Hymn). They are on 17 less 2xBolts = 11 life. (say you got lucky and they removed the GG with a 2 life cost counter)
One of the 4 cards left is the 3rd mountain.
What 3 cards would Red like to be holding at this point?
Say it is 3 MORE bolts. WOW ! empty hand for the second Hymn & top deck a bolt for the win !
On turn 4 they are casting a Goyf, Hymn, STP (on the Ball lightning or Goyf if desperate), Knight of the Reliquary, Jitte or Sword....
Most of those & Burn loses.
Some way of redirecting a burn and the game is over.
Some life gain and the game is over.
Sure, when you Burn obscene amounts of bolts, the game will be close.
But, then Burn loses. Going first, with a good draw, Yeah sure I can see burn taking games. But I did not win when reality arrived.
Guerilla tactics is the card I started with.
Dodecapod is the other one. 5/5 beats 3/4.
Price of Progress is good, and can do 6 damage.
Zuran Orb or Knight of the Reliq can be a real downer to Progress though.
Swamp, forest, Multi = Yay, take 2.
I think I have just convinced myself to take the Ostrich.
Ignore the Goyf...?
So, you just lose.
turn one they Bolt/StP/ or counter
turn 2 or 3 they hymn
turn 2 or 3 they Goyf
They Win
Trying to burn their face when you are looking at 9-12 damage and they are on 20, just loses.
If the only topdeck you need is 3-6 damage, sure, burn has great topdecks.
If the only topdeck you need is 7-12 damage, you lose.
That situation always seemed to happen against Hymn/Goyf.
This is not a Hymn / Rack style discard, just goodstuff.
And Hymn/Goyf really is good stuff.
I have been having such problems with it I am starting to think just play Goyf.
Low curve don't work.
If Hymn nails 6 damage, and then they play a Tarmogoyf, what does a Burn deck do?
Untap a mountain, play a second mountain ... Goblin guide + burn to kill the goyf?
Double burn for an empty hand and no board?
The same deck playing the new counter 1 cost spell for 2 life or a blue is also surprisingly effective against burn. It is a win against the Guide + Burn solution to the Goyf.
Seriously ..."Keep your Mana curve Low?" just dont work.
I lost 5 straight, and it felt like I could lose a lot more. Often close, but just splat regardless.
The cards that help were the higher casting cost stuff, like Ball Lightning. Seems obvious. If you need something to cast because you have run out of cards, but not land, Ball Lightning is just what ya want.
Or a Rakdos Pit Dragon...
And, I am not talking about a discard deck, just a good stuff deck, with Hymns & Goyf, and cards that support them. It seems as though the power and stability of that deck is just beyond burns' capability.
An active Jitte is just not meant to happen.
Leyline of sanctity & COP RED I can live with.
But, Hymn to Tourach is just a problem.
Especially with a turn 3 Tarmogoyf, and a turn 1 bolt.
Is this just a pack up and go home moment, or is there something I can do about it?
Guerilla tactics or Dodecapod seem like maybes, is there something better?
Also, I am finding that an Ankh of Mishra is just the business against Fetch-land stupidity.
Play land, take 2, fetch, take 1, get land, take 2
Now there is some bonus damage a COP Red doesn't understand.
Still want to include Mishra's Factories and Mutavaults, but my build is even heavier Red than yours. (4xBall Lightnings. Mmmmm Chocolate & Salty). Factories especially, since they are artifacts, and I play Shrapnell blast.
Incinerate vs Shrapnell blast is situational, but Shrapnell blast wins.
Now, how do I deal with Hymn?
Wait for Emrukal to attack, and delete your board. Then,
Mountain + Meekstone
Stops War Monk too, mostly.
I have joined MTG Salvation purely to point out I am stunned that 130 pages about BURN could exist in one thread. Wow. . .
People that used to play, used to call me "the old Warhorse".
I won my first tournament playing burn 15 years ago. I have ALL of the cards listed in the primer. I agree with pretty much everything in the original post. That in itself is more than a little unusual.
I think the term "Instant" is not focussed on enough. I think Incinerate is a good baseline card, not just because of 3 damage, but also because it says the magic word INSTANT.
Oddly enough, when I built my first "legacy" burn deck, 2 weeks ago, incinerate was something I was focussing on. Well, better than Incerate actually.
I pulled second in my only Legacy tournament so far. (15 Players, Got beaten by Dredge. My, what a lot of funky cards work together in Dredge!)
Unusual cards that I have not noticed so far. . .
Hidetsuguru's Second Rite (awesome 1 off from the board. . .
Furnace of Rath
Forgotton Cave (currently good enough to play)
Sonic Burst
Sonic Seizure
Furnace of Rath is not your average 4 cost bad spell.
Furnace, Fireblast + Fireblast is a quality turn 4 take 16.
Hidetsuguru's Second Rite is the most fun spell in Magic to successfully cast.
It got me a warning for being cast too enthusiasticly.
TEN damage is worthy of consideration. Even if only briefly.
I reckon the basics can get a little trodden on.
I reckon some of the Bad Cards can be stronger than the Good one listed.
But it takes some practice, and requires cards with synergy.
Saying X is Better than Y is easy when comparing Shock and Lightning Bolt.
Saying Incinerate is better than Shrapnell Blast is much more difficult.
5 damage at instant speed is hard to ignore.
Sharpnell, Fireblast, Bolt is 12 points on turn 3
Obviously, having a Blast and no artifact is a problem, and does sometimes happen, but it is a long way from fatal, and often just comes good. mine has slightly more ways to control draw, and problem cards.
The reasons stated for why Red should play just mountains are mostly a fear of Wastelands.
Shrapnell Blast is surprising good as an answer.
Turn 2, I play a Great Furnace, you wasteland it, I sacrifice it and you take 5.
This is good times for the Red Player.
This is not how the Wastelands was hoping that exchange would go.
Urza's Bauble is also a bad card. It just is. But Shrapnell Blast just doesn't work with only great Furnaces. And Bauble does have some advantages that are worth noting. Reaching over and grabbing at their hand is intrusive and rude. Nice people dont do that. Knowing about that card can actually help, sometimes. Filling the graveyard as a zero cost almost cantrip is fine to.
The actual plan with the Bauble is to just cantrip. If a blast needs the bauble to be kept, sure.
The back up plan for bauble is to be used with the blasts. together that works out as 2 cards, 2 mana, 5 damage, INSTANT. not bad as a back up plan. Shrapnell Blast is quite similar to shard Volley, when sacing a furnace, it just costs 1 more, and does an extra 2 damage.
Barbarian Ring does suffer from Wasteland, but it is burn in a land! And it taps for red, and it comes into play untapped. It does obviously clash with Fireblast. Since I am playing far less Mountains, the full set of 4 Fireblasts is not really justified, 3 is far more effective. The second Fireblast is mostly a dead card, for me. Getting to 4 mountains can be a stretch for many other Burn Decks too, this is not just my problem.
Barbarian Ring is partly responsible for lots of the other changes.
It does stuff, like killing protection from red creatures, with Pariah.
Ring interacts with ALL the other changes I play, and likes them.
The traditional reason for not playing Comes into Play Tapped lands is because they bite you when you need the mana now. And fair enough too. But not getting the land at all will kill you quicker, and more dead. For this reason I like playing some Forgotton caves. Playing land that does not tap for R mana is much harder to justify.
Mountain + 6 spells should be a mullingan.
Mountain + 5 spells + Forgotten cave is a keeper.
Ball Lightning is a hammer to the head. It wins games. If it doesn't win the game, it will draw a response. Ball causes lots of damage from a single source. Ball Lightning causes players Fear!
It allows for massive comebacks. It forces players to never tap out.
The last cards I play that you guys don't is Sonic Seizure.
It covers all of the other questionable calls.
It is a remarkable Clean up card.
It covers too much land, and too little, and too many dead cards. ( POP, Ball Lightning, Shrapnell Blast)
My version of burn is very much more interactive in both the cards and players.
My cards interact and help each other in a way that "take 3" just dont.
I think I take less damage than most lists here too, only my Barabian Rings hurt me.
Forcing the opponent to actually do the damage to kill me can easily buy an extra turn.
From the primer. . . "With an optimum 20 lands, mulligans will still happen about 50% of the time,". most of you seem to be playing 19 land, but eh.
I mulligan far less than that. Partly I am greedy, but also I am playing 21 land, and baubles.
And my casting costs are slightly lower than most too, I think.
Wasteland is a real problem for lots of Burn decks, and forces a clean manabase of Mountains, and maybe fetches. That really aint for me.
I have lowered my mana base to 21/56
Most of the ones here are 19/60
Mine = 0.375
Most others = 0.3166666
Difference = 0.05833
Difference x 60 = 3.500
Assuming the Baubles are always cycled, that is 3.5 more land for wastelands to eat.
If I am OK with them using Wastelands to kill my land, both players are at less mana for longer. That is just fine by me too !
I do not like Goblin Guide.
It has been far too generous, and then dead.
What I played (2nd from 15). . .OddBall Red
2 jackal pup
2 keldon marauders
4 ball lightning
3 urza's bauble
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
3 chain lightning
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
4 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 artifact blast
1 grim lavamancer
1 magus of the scroll
1 obstinate familiar
1 slith firewalker
1 cave-in
1 flamebreak
1 pryoblast
1 scald
1 pulse of the forge
1 ensnaring bridge
1 ankh of mishra
1 tsabo's web
2 smash to smithereens
I am much happier with the below list, now that I have some clue of what is out there. . .
My Current list. . .OddBall Red. . .
4 lightning bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
3 rift Bolt
4 shrapnel blast
3 magma jet
2 sonic burst
3 price of progress
3 fireblast
2 keldon marauders
3 ball lightning
4 urza's bauble
11 mountain
4 barbarian ring
4 great furnace
2 forgotten cave
sideboard:
1 grim lavamancer
1 flamebreak
1 price of progress
1 ankh of mishra
1 Ball lightning
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Anarchy
4 Tormod's Crypt
My list has a much higher damage maximum, than most.
My numbers are just bigger. Things like Shrapnell Blast and Sonic Burst do 5 & 4, not 3 & 3. And as INSTANTS. I do not like lava spike, chain lightning & rift Bolt but they are the right choices, even if they are SO SLOW.
Ball Lightning is easier to dodge than a bolt, but it does do more.
And Haste & Trample are good at dealing damage.
Even with a blocker it is still doing damage, and killing the blocker. Flamewave just dont have take 6 as a back up play.
The Barbarian Rings are just more damage that you guys mostly do not play with.
Mine is a sophisticated Burn Deck, Oddball certainly aint quite like yours.
Played the above deck, went 1 win 3 losses.
1/2 (play mistake lost a game)
1/2 (play mistake lost a game)
1/2 (SNAFU, mistakes a plenty)
2/0
Maybe next time I can remember to actually use the scry effect off Magma jet, as well as using it at the right time. Bolting the player on turn 1 cause I guessed wrong about their deck. Then I died to a Lodestone Golem.
So, next time I am planning on playing something very similar, but with a better brain.
Anarchy is too narrow for such an open field.
Tormod's crypt is also too narrow.
I think I prefer the wide open sideboard I used first time.
Going down to 3 Shrapnell blasts seems right. Maybe a couple of other 1-2 card changes.
I so want a 2nd Rite to fit back in. No Mana burn really helps.
OK. Um... Look.
"You have the Great Furnace as your 3rd land but you dont have Shrapnel."
Cool.
I have gone take 3, 3 times. & you used a fetch.
I play my third land, cast a Ball Lightning, and Fireblast you to DEATH !
1-2 cards spare.
Next game?
"Your opponent Wastelands you and now you're down to one land."
OK. But aren't you dead already?
My opponent has lost 2 land, and I am playing Burn, with way more land & Baubles. Seriously LOTS more. And when I draw lots more I can Cycle them. Or get my opponent to wasteland them.
And ALL their little mana dudes are dead. Maybe they have mana rocks. not common though. Not feeling dead. Is it my go again?
"Luckily you also have Urza's Bauble."
Cool!
" But now you draw Sonic Burst, and you use that, randomly discarding the Bauble."
Um. No Dude.
I play the Bauble for ZERO.
This is kinda hard to ignore. If I want to discard the Bauble, I spoze I could keep it in my hand. But if a Blank card is better than a coloured in one, sure, I Spoze. I mean, why not play it, use it, and bang in their upkeep?
And, Why am I using the last card first?
Sonic gets used last, or if truely desperate in emergencies.
If I have ONE burn spell and I need to deal 4 points to a planeswalker, Burst is good. Burst is also good as the clean up card. If I draw too many land even after the cyclers, I can convert a blank into fuel. If I draw any of the problems you guys are pointing out, The burst can be used at the end to clear a blockage.
"Then you draw Shrapnel, and once again you don't have an artifact to use for it."
Um, sure, but I am far more concerned about 1 land.
I did some math way back in page 90, I am playing a WAY bigger percentage.
if you subtract the wastelands you wanna type about from my total, it is the same as yours.
The game you are describing will still go Bolt, Bolt for quite a while.
And the second land does come.
My deck is different to yours.
Just is. I have those cards.
I have played your deck. It works.
Hi Kiddies. I prefer my deck. I won my first tournament with burn 15 years ago. :0
Homer Moment . . Mmmmm..... Varchilds War Riders......
And, How do you get away with complaining about the speed of Ball Lightning !
I play Ball Lightning over Sulfuric Vortex or metamorph.
Turn 3 kills seem Pretty Unlikely when playing cards like vortex.
And sure, if you draw the perfect amounts of burn, land, and no opponent interference. Take 3! works a treat.
Out here in the real world life can get a lot more tricky.
This deck is amazingly stable. I have played a whole lot of Oddball combo. Weird Censorific. Combo Burn Red is just So me.
Because your builds are much simpler (Take 3!), they do not have anywhere near the same damage potential. Mine can easily get to 30 MUCH faster than yours. This is because I am expecting to have to interact with something that is not just their life total. But I am completely happy not to.
And, I really dont think "you" understand if you think PoP, then Ball requires 5 mana. PoP is an instant, if you counter it, in your turn, I get to untap and cast Ball Lightning. If you have a zero cost counter, good for you. Maybe this is turn 4 and I pay for your daze. Or you can only counter Non creatures / one costs / two costs / or Instants with your counter.
Being a creature does have advantages Too.
Yes, the thread has a whole lotta posts.Yes, the primer is good.
Yes, I have played those cards.
The only thing suggested so far that sorta works in Hellspark, and that aint great.
As far as I can tell, standard burn (take 3!) is actually far WORSE against Goyf/Hymn goodstuff.
Topdecking 3 a turn is just not gunna make it.
I could have written the primer, without the need of 127 pages addendum.
Some of the cards I play are not even on it! (Sonic Burst)
This seriously made me laugh.
How many Arabian Mountains are you playing?
A couple of years ago, I realised I had been to more Nationals than that Judge was Old !
Yes, I know.
I am glad you did not write the Primer.
Sonic Burst & Sonic Seizure are both about to be put on the Bad List, without you guys needing to play them !
Big NO on that one.
I am not shoving anything down your throat. I barely know You!
I posted my list because I was explicitly asked to.
It aint the same as yours, I know that, you know that.
Mine is FAR more complex, and harder to play.
& I would love to be winning more Tournaments with it.
Dredge clubbed me on turn 4 of the final. (hence lots of Tormods)
In the next, I lost 2 rounds to Hymn /Goyf, the deck I have been asking for suggestions about. So far the only good advice is Hellspark, and get lucky with a worse deck.
I have an impressive collection of BURN. (& I am missing 3 mox)
I started with the cards available on the Primer, maybe 16 years ago.