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  • posted a message on Burn
    Instead of arguing, I am just gunna post this. . .
    https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
    8 fetch & 1 multi are just not enough to support a consistent splash.

    Speeding up burn doesn't work. If you could, we would play it base deck.

    Removing Griselbrand or Marit Lage doesn't seem the right way to do it.
    To do so requires 2 cards, one of which needs to be in my hand.

    Getting the answer card, and then getting spanked anyway, really gets me down.
    And that is my problem. Discard in Legacy is common, especially facing those decks. They play discard to solve those problems.
    The cheapest Thoughtseize is down to 15 bucks, Plateau is $180 (what, really?, no love for plateau compared with other Multi's)
    Either way, I already got both, and that aint the issue.

    The real problem is Dark Depths is a complete caning.
    A complete, crushing defeat for burn.

    4(?) months ago, I got utterly, totally destroyed by it.
    We played our two tournament games in 5 minutes, then we played another 9 "games" in the next 25 minutes.
    He won, over and over. I pulled the 2 games where he mulled to 4. My burn deck was just irrelevant.
    Eleven games in half an hour is stupid.
    It was so bad, I stopped playing Legacy. The format just seemed tainted.

    Much later, I went to another store to play standard, but it didn't fire. So I played Legacy, with my Blue Standard deck.
    Went 1/3, and had fun.
    Then, Randomly, it happened again, and this time I had my Legacy burn, went 2/2. Which is fine.

    So I played again, and sat down against Marit Lage. Got crushed on turn 2.
    Then, as he mulligans and mumbles about me having a really strong chance, I tell him, 'Yeah, sure. You are still going to win'. He goes down to 4 cards, on the draw, and wins on his 3rd turn.

    That aint happening again.

    I do not care what else I need to sacrifice under the wheels.
    I am going to stop that Juggernaut.
    .
    I am not going to get colour screwed while holding a Path.
    I am not going to get the Plateau and have them discard my Path.
    .
    I have in sideboard 2xMaze of Ith & 2xIsland of Wak-Wak
    I am going to have 4x Alpine Moon
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    I have, but I haven't actually tried it.
    It doesn't look good.

    Hero of Precinct one is strictly worse than every other 2 drop I play, until it has activated.
    It is only kinda good once it has activated twice, and that is really unlikely.

    Dryad comes down turn 1.
    Stopping 1 drops that Snapcaster can reuse is important, that means it is only really activated by Teeg and WLL.
    Teeg comes out as soon as possible, provided I don't have a Spectral. So, before Hero.
    WLL is hopefully the last spell cast, and wins the game.

    The turn Hero gets cast, he does nothing.
    Selfless, Teeg & Little Thalia can all be HUGE, immediately.

    WatchWolf / Fleecemane Lion seem better plays.

    Hero only seems good once it has activated twice.
    But, I want to win on turn 4, and expect to win on turn 5.
    Hero just doesn't fit that timeline.

    If I was to play that style, Emmara of the Accord seems better.
    And in between is the guy that makes a 1/1 whenever he deals damage.
    .

    As to champion of the parish, the card is bollocks.
    My current build has massively diversified away from humans, and toward nasty bonus abilities. Dryad and Teeg and WLL and Selfless and Spectral. Champion just doesn't seem right in a deck with only half the humans I used to play.

    In the right deck, Champion is fantastic, but that deck was 3 pages ago, now he is regularly a 1 cost 1/1.
    Honestly, it was the backbone of the pure white Human CHARGE deck from about 3 pages ago.
    But, 16 humans seems a whole lot less than the 30+ I was playing.
    Champ need to activate at least Twice to really be worthwhile.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    wow.
    .
    I skipped thru the past 4 pages, and All of the cards suggested are typed about.
    Aethersworn canonist page 1 = 9 times, Page 4 = 4 times
    Knight of Autumn page 3 = 2 times, page 4 = 2 times
    Voice of Resurgence page 3 = 2 times, page 4 = 2 times
    Engineered Explosives Page 3 = 4 times, page 4 = 1 time (all by opponents)
    .
    Why start again on page 5 with stuff already mentioned 13 times, played and discarded?
    .
    Try Your setup with a Spectral Procession instead of the Monk, and a Kytheon instead of the NobleH :
    Spectral Procession is 3x 1/1, with flying
    With a marshal they are 3 x 2/2, with flying (6 damage, not 5)
    With a Kytheon, you have a plainswalker as well. The plainswalker means Wrath doesn't work, or their problem creature has to attack Gideon, or a token is an untapped, indestructible blocker.
    .
    The Marshal / Liege directly interferes with the exalted trigger on the next turn, because the lord wants to attack as well. And it works on the (Kytheon/Gideon).
    .
    Against Path to Exile, or Fatal Push, your entire scenario just stops as they kill the Rhox.
    Or Venser, Terminate, Assasains trophy, Ensnaring bridge. . .lots.
    .
    Against a blocker that disappears, Rhox gets nothing. Attack into a Death Shadow, or Primal Titan, or Wurmcoil, and it is bad.
    Against a swarm of ground creatures, (pyromancer, swarm red or Green), Rhox can't kill them.
    .
    Lifegain is rarely useful.
    I learnt that in the original builds of this deck. As I am sure I have written, many times, the original version of this was Martyr of Sands/Serra's Ascendant. Mostly, it is a flawed tactic. If a 5/6 gaining you 5 life is Whopping! then, why not play Martyr of Sands and gain 15 on turn 2? Well, 15 lifegain is mostly just not good enough hence me playing 4 Martyrs in the board for when it is.
    .
    If you read the past 5 pages, I have actively played Aethersworn canonist, tried Knight of Autumn, and gone in depth over how and why Voice is just not being good enough. I just covered why Engineered Explosives is counterintuitive.
    Last night, I played against Tron. Tron is my fall back enemy, and none of those cards do anything against it.

    All of them are entirely reasonable cards, quality cards, but, I have been there, and played that
    I am interested in developing the deck, but I have developed way past those cards.
    .
    Look, Watchwolf is a 3/3 in just 2 colours, strictly better than Rhox.
    Fleecemane Lion is strictly better than Watchwolf.
    Watchwolf seems almost zero play, and it is obviously better than Rhox.
    .
    Avatar of the Resolute is better than Fleecemane, My that thing is strong, and it sees almost no play.
    Kraul Harpooner is the same, nothing.
    .
    The design philosophy in this deck is to KILL.
    1 cost = 2 power
    Rhox is half that strength, and requires a complete rework of the landbase.
    .
    The comparable creature may be Big Thalia, also a 3 power creature.
    Big Thalia shuts down their side of the board.
    Tapped fetchland, gets a tapped multiland, gets a tapped creature
    First Strike can be just as good Lifelink. (Think Deathtouch)
    And Big Thalia is reducing in numbers because 3 cost 3 power doesn't seem good enough.
    .
    I have already written about the cards you suggest.
    Tell me cards that stop Ugin, Wrath, Death Shadow, CoCo, Cryptic, Mill, Pyromancer, ArcLight Phoenix, Reflector Mage, Ensnaring bridge . . .
    And sure.
    .
    The reason I switched back to Teeg is that the games he wins are often the ones I would have outright lost.
    Ugin, Wrath, Mill, CoCo, Cryptic. . .
    Stuff that will just kill you, unless you get a counterspell, and the mana to cast it. Which is why Gaddock is SO GOOD.
    Tap out to play creatures is how this deck works, and why counterspells just don't work in it.

    This is a sprint white deck. My life total is often irrelevant.
    The green bits are pure greed because the deck is so consistent it can afford the impurities because the upgrade in power level is massive.
    But Bant for Rhox War Monk? Why suddenly become so vulnerable land problems, colour screw, Blood Moon . . .
    .
    "I’ve been trying it out with my play group and it is a solid list but there is absolutely room for improvement. "
    OK
    What were your results?
    What did you play against?
    Since you have built it, (apparently), and Modern is a massive field, what happened?
    Suggesting changes without knowing the starting point, or reading my already written comments on the cards suggested, seems interesting.
    .
    Why would you think Lifegain is important?
    Against Red, it absolutely is. And the Noble Hierarch will get Burnt the moment he arrives.
    A Rhox War Monk gets to attack on turn 4, provided you get perfect land. And the perfect land will cause you pain, a lot of pain.
    Sometimes, Yeah, against red he will live to do that, and sometimes it will be enough.
    Against every other deck type, Rhox seems a very ordinary victory condition.
    .
    Lots of ground based creatures that join together to do something without disrupting the opponent is currently not successful in any modern deck.
    Humans, & Spirits fly, and disrupt.
    In what way is Rhox War mock better than Mantis Rider? One less toughness for Flying vigilance AND haste?
    And all the interacting bonus combos with the rest of their deck?
    You attack with the single Rhox, they tap an aether vial, play a reflector mage, and win.
    .
    You are not thinking about the interactions between your cards and theirs.
    A 5/6 ground pounder beats What?
    .
    This deck has 7 lords, and 7 flip if 3 attackers effects. Noble Hierach is based on helping individual attackers. At a fundamental concept level, NobleH just shouldn't be there.
    (OK. He is WAY COOL at sliding straight past Ensnaring Bridge. And an expensive proven powerhouse. Obviously)
    But. How is better to cast a Rhox on turn 2 instead of having 3x 2/1 creatures?
    Turn 1 Dryad Militant can just win the game, same as attack on turn 3 with 3 creatures, because Kytheon flips. That just aint the gameplan if Noble H appeared on turn 1.
    .
    But Hey, You do You.
    Try it out. Let me know your results.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    Right now the green splash is really only for Teeg and I'm not sure he's that good.
    Smile
    Randomly, Gaddock wins games.
    Cryptic Command, wrath, . . .Engineered Explosives Smile

    I dont need to deal with Blood Moon, mostly.
    Fetch Basic Plains, go first and dump spells. . .
    LeoRW can deal a little too.

    Voice or Knight of Autumn are OK. But OK is not enough

    Blue Splash - hallowed fountain, breeding pool, some flooded strands, and 4 nobles -> unified will or rhox monk
    Yeah, maybe, but, nah. Manaleak is prolly better, and 3 cost for a 3/4 is just not enough.
    Consistency works.
    I don't think Blue is worth it. But, go ahead.

    The deck I am playing is beyond solid. It only loses when they do something amazing.
    Maybe try that out first?

    Or don't. Smile
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Mono-blue Tempo
    This deck has problems with U/R , Izzet drakes in particular.

    Izzet drakes having multiple creatures becoming Cows should be backbreaking.
    A single deep freeze may not be.




    Posted in: Established (Standard)
  • posted a message on Burn
    Path is less effective than it reads.

    * Not getting a white mana, blows
    * Getting Path to exile hit by Inquiz & Thoughtseize also blows
    * Them getting a second 20/20 also blows. (Now, sure, they absolutely should be dead before a second one)

    It is that first problem that happens WAY to often. No White. Especially in two sprint decks where you only see about 10 cards.
    I am worried about them wastelanding my Land based solution, so having them destroy the Sacred Forge seems valid.
    Way more fetches would work at getting a second white source, I spoze.


    Turn 1 on the play - Alpine Moon - seems the best solution. Everything else gets discarded, or wastelanded.
    Alpine Moon seems terrible against almost everything else. Tron would be funny, but. . .
    I think it would stop the Uzra's Tower tapping for 3, but I think the Urza's Mine & Powerplant would still tap for 2 because the Tower is called an Urza's Tower, even if it loses the 'Type'. (?)


    Turn 2 or 3 (island of Wak-Wak, Karakas, or Maze of Ith) seems OK too. Glacial Chasm is sitting on a 4 turn bomb, which admittedly should be long enough. Since I am trying to kill the opponent, which of the 4 lands to play is a curious call. Legacy is a mammoth field.

    Karakas taps for crappy mana.
    Wak-wak is best against fliers. (Delver & most reanimators)
    Maze is best against ground based offence. (Ball Lightning)
    Chasm works against some combo & Thump
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Burn
    Good catch on the powder keg.

    Surgical wont work. (pretty sure)
    Same with Traitor's roar. (too slow, and a sorcery, so no window).
    Grab the reins is too expensive

    Disharmony (&ActOfA) might work, but requires the 20/20 to exist in my main faze. And it often doesn't.

    Backlash is perfect. Except its a black card.

    As I said E-Bridge will get discarded, destroyed, or maybe be too slow. But it does have a definite plan.
    Pia and ornithopter are one turn wonders that slow me down too, and might get destroyed.

    Glacial Chasm will work, but seems strictly worse than Karakas, Maze of Ith and Island of Wak-Wak.

    Hmmmmm.
    Weird to think Bitterblossom would work too. (if I had Black)
    See how hard it is?

    A singleton Alpine Moon seems hopeful.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop


    2/0 at untap

    2/1 vs Biomancer/Displacer
    Wow, what a deck. We have played a bit beforehand, and he should win basedeck if he gets a mix of all his creatures.
    After sideboarding, my Path to exiles are critical at disrupting his board, his path to exiles are less effective, but obviously still work on my Lords.
    Insanely hard complex games, often decided by choosing the right creatures to attack.
    Gaddock is important at stopping CoCo and the other one (XGGG - search and get)
    Avoiding a creature death Cascade by keeping the Lords at home is a good place to start.
    Him attacking straight through my team because a creature is too important to block, was funny. Exalted is like that.


    2/0 Green Stompy
    All my inbuilt tricks don't work, except flying. My speed also helps.
    Blocking Nullhide Ferrox while flying over for the win seems to work.


    The LeoRW have been quite uninspired for many rounds.
    They did a cute trick this time where the exiled my own Legion's Landing, died, and got another 1/1 Vamp.
    But that is pretty weak.
    The Modern Field is just SO HUGE, next time it will be Aether vials every game.
    Still, they aint earning their keep at the moment.
    .
    :
    .
    TribalSympathy 'Wheel of Sun and Moon, Finks, EE, Ethersworn Canonist, and I loved the idea of the Stillmoon Cavaliers'
    E-Canonist does work, but there is better
    Stillmoon Cavaliers is a fine choice, but I am making different ones at the moment. I dont seem to need it since the rest of the deck is now upgraded. Still a completely fine choice.

    EE - hmmmm what is that? EE. . .it is gunna be obvious
    Engineered Explosives?
    Nah, That is a card The Opponent should be playing. An artifact that doesn't hurt them just doesn't make it into this deck.

    Wheel of S&M is really narrow, and actually a bit slow. Them going first & second turn discard, and then you playing the wheel, is sad making.


    Finks are too slow. A 3 cost 3/2 that comes back as a 2/1 is ok, but not special. Big Thalia is better and far more disruption. 3 mana for 3 power is just not enough without having a backbreaking ability.
    Compare Spectral procession to Finks. 3 x 1/1 means a LOT more as they fly over, boosted 3 times by a Lord. Kill one, and there is still 2 more, not one. Only after a board wipe, (or if the Life Gain matters) is the Finks better. Or I spoze sometimes when they bounce/flicker tokens.
    Considering if a sorcery/creature is better in my hand is getting a bit wacky, but even there it can be weird. Inquiz of Kozilek can't get the 6 cost procession, and Eidolon of Burny Red doesn't trigger either. But, every basdeck game Gaddock & Little Thalia annoy Spectral Procession. Thing is, Spectral is that ridiculous, it is still worth it.
    And Banana Man is just a YES. This may well be the best deck ever for that card. It is Banana Man Heaven.

    Since those are the 3 cost spells that Finks need to be better than to earn a spot, I just don't think Finks works. I mean, sure it is a fine 3 drop that tools along. The 3 different 3 drops I am playing land with a thud, and might just win it, by themselves.

    I am finding the deck is still a little heavy sometimes.
    But.
    I need to survive targetted Discard, and that requires a heavier hand. I am also getting too much land, on occasion, but I think I have to just wear that too. The inbuilt compensating systems do cover most of it. Recently, twice I have drawn a double Horizon Canopy opening hand as my only mana. And it hurts. Well, a bit. If they are ignoring my life total it makes no difference. And those hands are rare.

    One regular opponent plays Mill. Check through this thread and it is the same guy.
    I am going to start playing a Gaea's Blessing. I figure it is worth it because unlike all the rest of my sideboard, GB works when I don't draw it, or about 4 times as often as a normal Sideboard card.
    Probably worth it against Phoenix or Reanimate too.


    Played against a completely bog-standard Green Tron
    3/1 using Base decks
    3/3 After sideboarding
    Gaddock locked up ONE game, total. Leo did absalutely F'kall.

    Just not sure these games are indicative, but it does demonstrate WWW can go toe to toe with Tron.
    But, any deck that can go even with Tron, is a serious deck.

    Walking Ballista is a problem, Ugin is a loss, Oblivion stone went off once total, and in all of those games he never cast a Wurmcoil, (and I did see them in his deck).

    I sideboarded only once, and, well, I did not SB in the Path to Exile. I think this might be the right call. Still think the LeoRW should be there, but I should play them immediately, and try to take a cantrip artifact.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    0/4/1 Complete wipeout, but my it was fun.
    Losing that way was OK. Every game was tight.

    I lost to stuff I've beaten previous. Insane games. And the deck performed. No mulligans.
    Two floods, and yadda, yadda yadda. Brain hurts.

    But their decks were on fire, with some epic games
    Complex, hard stuff. And I got some weird arse draws

    Flipping a Windbrisk Heights for a Horizon Canopy, pay 1 & draw a card just isn't the same as Lord, win.
    I would happily play that all over again.
    The Relic warden and Big Thalia were the worse performers.
    The Dryad was awesome, and bad.
    Not sure if Gaddock stopped anyone doing anything the entire day.

    Mine was doing great, but, just didn't quite against really well done stuff by opponents.
    Good times, which seems really odd from that scoreline.

    My final opponent was a Death Shadow deck. He got me turn 4 both games with Temur battle rage with targetted discard. I played 2 more games. I won the two bonus games when Martyr got me above where he can kill me. Death shadow is meant to be easy.

    Fighting thru hordes of Elementals(10?), turn after turn, with the correct numbers of creatures.
    Winning after the thing goes off, and not, twice more. But, so close.

    I lost to mill. not sure how that happened. either. Historically I really shouldn't.
    It was like that, but really enjoyable. Smile








    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Burn
    First off, The first post of this primer is spot on.
    Accurate and deep. Good Job.


    My personal flourish has often been Shrapnel Blast, and sometimes Goblin Grenade, but I do get it that they are definitely non-standard. Suddenly lots of left field artifacts or goblins appear, and it doesn't really fit the burn Archtype. (Brainstorming a Thunderous Wrath seems strong.)
    Hidetsugu's Second Rite does cost 4, but rarely will you be less satisfied by a Game of Magic.
    (I am so putting 2nd rite back in the board.)

    Anyhoo, . . .
    I am getting absalutely smashed by Dark Depths.

    I have looked through 50? different decklists and found a couple of solutions, but few good ones.
    Ensnaring Bridge is often going to work, once it is in play. But. It wont get into play fast enough, will get discarded, and sometimes destroyed.
    Powder Keg is a turn 2 solution, so it's faster, but, will still get discarded and destroyed.

    Alpine Moon is a wacky one that really seems good, especially on the play.

    And then there are lands.
    Karakas is a great way to bounce the legendary token, and hey wow it makes a Mana!
    Maze of Ith works to stop Mr 20/20 from hurting me
    Island of Wak-Wak is by far the style land

    Now, I get it that Island of Wak-Wak is not a common idea, but, i got 2 of them.
    And actually playing them, and winning because of them . . .
    Wak-Wak also looks good against Delver, and reanimator

    Maze of Ith seems a a bit boringly utilitarian.
    I was very excited when I looked at my original Karakas, but the updated wording is big sad making.

    But unfortunately they all get wastelanded, and crop rotation is going to find that wasteland.


    Is there something I am missing?

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    Yer bang on about the dryad.

    Turn 1 Kytheon
    Turn 2 Soldier + Dryad Arbor
    Turn 3 flip Kytheon - is also good times.

    .
    Regarding the 4th Little Thalia . . .
    How about this. . . Would you play a 5th?
    I mean, say the 4 of a card rule disappeared, would you play a 6th?
    Obviously, I would not. But it is an interesting demonstration. I think 3 is the right amount in basedeck.

    She is Awesome. I really aint arguing that. To be in any Modern deck, the card has to be borderline overpowered.
    But, is she that good that having a 2nd in hand is a fair enough price to pay?
    Because I am quite certain that aint true.

    Of the decks you list :
    "Turn 2 Thalia: Red Spells, Burn, Death's Shadow, Tron, UWx Control, BGx Midrange, Storm, and more."
    Yep. I have played against all of them.

    Burn just kills her.
    Attack on turn 2 with a Monastery Swiftspear, whatcha gunna do?
    I mean, sure, she is a fine card against burn, but, not special. I payed 2, and they payed 2. Eh?
    Lots of my other creatures have the same effect. I pay 1, and they pay 1.

    Death's Shadow - Really isn't fussed.
    They are not actually in that much of a hurry, and I do not really want to get them to about 10 life. I want a huge WHAM to kill them.
    If I was concerned about Deaths Shadow, I could go back to 14 protection from Black creatures, and LAUGH !
    Death Shadow looks at Devout Lightcaster and has a quiet cry. And Path is brutal against them. Seriously, Death Shadow is so stomped by this, I don't need any more help. I have been de-sideboarding against it for some time.
    Little Thalia making their cantrips cost an extra 1 does slow them down, a bit, but not a lot. Swampcycling will already have happened, and a one cost, possibly more if they went first.
    Temur Battle sillyness will still make them size 24 with trample.

    Tron is inconvenienced by Little Thalia, but nothing more. She delays them by a turn, mostly. If I have a second in hand, that will delay me by a turn. A second LT is bad.

    UWx Control - yeah she is good, here a 4th might be worth it. But she is not that good. Gaddock is just better. No wrath effects, no Cryptics is SO much better than slow down by a turn. Kinda similar to Tron. Gaddock does the work.

    BGx Midrange - Yeah, She is OK. It is a big swath of cards in this one. If they go mostly creatures, She really doesn't do much. And if they are going lots of boosters (Elf, Bird, Noble), all she is doing is counteracting a one cost creature for their 1 or 2 expensive spells. A second LThalia in hand is just bad.

    Storm - Yep. 4th is fantastic.

    Against Merfolk, Elves, Humans, Slivers, goblins, green stompy, . . . No. And the first Three are feeling underpowered.


    And please, don't get me wrong, I am playing 3 of her because I believe in her, and she has demonstrated her usefulness. She has won me a whole lot of games. But. So has all the other cards.
    As example, the Shefet Dunes is an incredibly borderline card. Almost always it is better as a plains. And about 1 game in 50 it is the deciding factor, and it has never cost me a game. Sure, I have been blood mooned, and it does cost me a little life. It is entirely possible that a 4th Horizon canopy would be a better call. But. I do not believe it is. Tapping for colour-less does happen. 3+1 is better. Getting 2 Horizon canopies as only initial land can and does happen, and I don't want that. The difference in that happening when not playing the 4th Horizon canopy is startling. Mathematically, about half of those draws disappear.

    That is what I mean by a 'feel good' deck.
    Mathematically, the bad draws have gone away.
    I have worked at removing all the internal weaknesses. That is why the obvious nonbo of Gaddock + Spectral is SO LOUD. It is screamingly obvious. Often I sideboard one or the other. And sometimes neither, because both are massive effects.

    This deck gets fewer bad hands than any other deck I play, and possibly any other deck in Modern. (except the pure white deck above).

    White/g is designed to not mulligan.
    Maybe a deck with a shed-ton of cantrip effects might use fewer mulligans, but I doubt it.
    And when it is forced to Mulligan, Wallop is still fine.
    As example, This deck would prefer if both players mulliganed to nothing, every game, against anyone.

    Plains, One drop . . .Is all it needs, what do you have?

    I played Burn in Legacy last night. It really sucks after playing this bad boy.
    Constant mulligans, Mana floods, and Mana screw. That was only across 4 rounds, 2 of which I won.
    It felt bad, and really random.

    This deck aint like that.
    23 Land, and 13 one cost creatures (well, technically the Dryad arbor + 4 fetch really confuses that)

    The only time my draw goes bad is when :
    * WAY too much simple land
    * No 3rd land with 3+4 drops
    * No Green for Gaddock
    * Legend Rule bites me

    That is about it.
    The only reason I allow those 4 problems is because the power level of those 3&4 drops is just bollocks for the other cards.
    I have consciously explored ways to deal with those four problems, and the original pure white deck lists on this thread did have solutions for those problems. But it was weaker against the opponent.

    Pump knights, fewer 3&4 drops, no green, and fewer legends all help deal with those 4 problems.
    But.
    Gaddock and WLL are just so strong against a whole lotta things.
    Those 4 problems are complications worth dealing with if it means Gaddock just wins the game, again. Gaddock solves all sorts of problems that used to be insurmountable.
    The first Wrath effect is expected, the second Wrath is the problem. Cryptic command was a a problem stall card, and yadda yadda yadda. Match ups where I don't need Gaddock, the rest of the deck can deal, and it kicks in nicely. Games where I need Gaddock, he just wins.

    The LeoRW seem to fill a specific hole I had. Spirits & Humans are a specific problem, and I am focused on thinking about that some more.
    My current thinking is on 'Tocatli guard' (1W Creatures don't trigger ETB effects). Stops Reflector Mage, No-Mage and quite a lot of obscure others. (Reflector is Bad News.)

    Anyhoo.
    The reason I don't want a 4th LThalia is because well, a 4th is worse than the 3rd one.
    After vast amounts of playtesting, the 3rd Big Thalia got shaved off, same as the 4th Kytheon, and the 2nd Isamaru.
    The 4th Gaddock is in the board because in a heap of match ups, if he survives, I just win.
    A 4th LThalia doesn't have that effect, (and often Storm can just Bolt/Grapeshot her).
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    Cheers. Smile

    Little Thalia is strong, in general, no argument here. But, not against everything.
    I think she should go down against Humans, elves, Spirits, Merfolk, Slivers, Stompy Green . . . Pretty well any 'Team' deck.
    I sideboarded out 2 copies of her against spirits in my latest round.
    If I am sideboarding in Path, and they only have Aether Vials as spells, she can actually be more of a tax on me.

    And it is the Legend Rule that's stopping me from having the 4th.

    Drawing 2 of them is a pain.
    Drawing 3 of them will lose the game.

    This deck is about beatdown & consistency first, and I just don't want to lose to myself.

    From the start, this is a 'Feel Good' deck. If they win, fair enough, they have done something special.
    I enjoy playing this deck, and a 4th Little Thalia adds problems and 'No Fun' draws.

    There is only 1 Isamaru because of the Legend rule. Same with Eijango Castle. (I wouldn't play a 2nd Legions Landing because it just isn't strong enough, but the Legend rule does rule it out.)

    Kytheon gets 3 copies because he really is outrageous, and always collects the bolt first. Also, he can actually dodge the legend rule and have 2 copies in play.

    Big Thalia just isn't strong enough to justify a 3rd copy, and the legend rule stops me wanting her. Unless she is going to be super effective, hence the third used to be in the board. the 3rd left because she lost games because of the legend rule.

    When they cast a turn 1 Aether Vial, I am in trouble.
    LeoRW can win those games, when Little Thalia won't. Same with Oblivion Stone, Wurmcoil engine, cranial plating, Lantern . . .

    But the big one is Ensnaring bridge.
    The weakest Little T is the 4th one.
    1xLittleT & 1xLeoRW is just SO much more effective than 2 of either.

    And yeah, the Spectral + (Gaddock/L.Thalia) is a Nonbo, as mentioned repeatedly.
    Regularly, Spectral or Gaddock get boarded, and sometimes Thalia. But very rarely does it matter.
    Often I can play around them by holding off the 2 drop until turn 4, with the Spectral on turn 3.
    Or just play the 2 drop, have them WIN! (or die), and then play the Spectral on turn 3, or (turn 4 with a tax).

    Spectral is just SO bollocks in this that the power overwhelms the problems.
    Windbrisk Heights with Spectral is BS, especially when playing 7 Lords.
    Spectral is also rather good with Kytheon, Selfless, LL, and the whole concept of the deck.
    After a boardwipe, Spectral is the best way to try to do the last 3-6 damage, and all the restrictions just went away.

    This deck isn't 'broken' in any way, it is however able to keep almost anything in modern a run for it's money, and it is the decks that beat me the most, that LeoRW is best at. Cute enchantments and dinky artifacts.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    2/1 @ Untap

    2/1 vs Biomancer/Displacer
    Loss - Way cool infinite
    Win - Speed smash
    Win - hard fight. Big Thalia won the game by making his creatures not able to block.
    I played the third game wrong when I should have gone for Gaddock instead of Big Thalia.
    Only won the third by top decking a WLL off the top.


    1/2 vs UR Thing in the Ice/Pyromancer
    Win - Speed stomp
    Loss - Slower start with double opening Horizon Canopy. Thing flipped, and just go there
    Loss - Thing Flipped , then doubled damage
    Dryad Militant's ability almost won this.


    2/0 Spirits
    win - Hard fought and long. I do not believe I should have won this if he played it perfect. But he didn't.
    win - Hard fought. Got him solely because of a cascade of death. I used a Shefet Dunes to boost all 4 attacking creatures. Suddenly he has to block, and the 5 points of first strike from Big Thalia is enough to kill the first +1/+1 booster, then the next and next.

    Real surprise that the game came down to Shefet Dunes. The games were that marginal. I only won this because I now know the match up. Avoiding the CoCo and Spell Queller is critical.
    Diddn't see a LeoRW, but he didn't get a turn 1 Aether Vial, so no effect



    Path, WLL sided in matches 1,2,3
    Gaddock sided in matches 1&3, out match 2
    LeoRW sided in match 3

    Tempting to put a Path in basedeck again.
    4x Martyr of Sands is hard to justify in the board. Stomping on Red is great, but. . . Maybe I should have subbed them in again UR Thing. Not sure they can kill me if I am on 35 life. HMMMMMmmmmmmm. Problem is it completely stops the sprint on turns 1 & 2. Martyr would be about trying to win AFTER the Thing goes off, or try to fight my way thru the bajillion tokens being created from the Young Pyromancer.

    Drawing the Dryad Arbor is poor.
    Being able to Fetch the Dryad Arbor is AWESOME.
    It is amazing how often the Arbor is fetched, and how effective it is.

    The legions landing did flip the one time it was cast, and it made 3 vamps. The life gain and extra creatures were critical.

    The deck is just solid.
    No mulligans, and only one dodgy start with two opening Horizon Canopies. Did slightly flood once, but the land did win it with the 6th land being the Shefet Dunes.
    Eijango Castle threatened to be useful, and made a slight threat in 2 games.

    The 2nd toughness on Isamaru mattered, a little.
    Didn't see a spectral procession.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on White Weenie Wallop
    Lantern HATES steppe Lynx.
    (Attack as a zero power creature, ghost quarter your Flagstones, take 4.)

    It can be pretty outrageous just normally.
    Flagstones, Lynx
    Flagstones, take 4
    Ghost quarter, Take 6

    Take 10 (!) by turn 3 is really rude for a ONE drop.

    It sure aint defence though.
    In the previous decklists above, there are decks I built with 4 of them.

    I do not believe a straight white version of the White/g I play is the right call.
    If you do play the Steppe L, might want some fetchlands, if you got them, and they do clash with Leo Arbiters.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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