I've been wanting a decent vehicle deck for a while and I don't care for Depala or boros. In my brewing brainstorms I thought Brago might do some good work here. Tap creatures to crew the vehicles, swing with everything, and untap it all with Brago.
I put it into a semi-artifact-themed shell so that the vehicles could still count for something even if I can't crew them. I was also debating just throwing vehicles into a standard Brago good-stuff shell, but that seemed too boring. I threw together an impromptu list and could use help tightening it up. I'm looking for non-land suggestions. My mana base can always be improved upon.
I was at work brainstorming unique new decks. I decided to try and make something that works around direct methods of winning the game. Namely, literal "I win" cards. Trying to narrow down which colors and cards I wanted to go with was difficult. Battle of Wits is out, Laboratory Maniac requires a very specific build, and Biovisionary just isn't creative enough. I finally landed on Orzhov.
I know there are others in these colors like Test of Endurance and Mortal Combat, but I don't want to spread myself too thin. I think the five I've chosen are feasible to give me alternate routes.
There aren't any Orzhov commanders that really stand out to make these win conditions happen, but Krav and Regna from Battlebond come pretty dang close. He's 1/4 of Liliana's Contract, fuels Felidar Soverign, and helps dig out Approach.
This is just a short mock up of my idea. Looking to refine and synergize as much as possible. Comments, critiques, and suggestions welcome.
Disciple of Bolas would be an auto include for me. Sure, you're losing Yargle, but he's cheap and the card/life advantage is immense. Can add Reanimate for super cheap Yargle/Disciple recursion.
We all know Kari Zev is awesome. Awesome art, awesome flavor, awesome monkey, but she isn't the easiest commander. Originally I tried something thematic and went the threaten route, but in a 4 player game it just isn't a viable strategy to focus on. I decided to stick to more of the swashbuckling theme and went with a voltron-style Kari Zev. I played several games with her and she is more fun than I had expected, but I feel the deck's power level could use a boost.
I played a handful of games. When the deck works, it's a fun experience for the most part. Hermit Druid was an all star (as he usually is).
I find myself lacking sufficient ways to end the game. Maybe it's a lack of tutors or ways to get key cards back after milled into the graveyard.
It's basically waiting to find Nighthowler or Bonehoard and swing. I'm open to any suggestions on tightening up the deck and make it possibly a little less durddly and more focused.
Have you considered some of the "repeatable" Enchantments like Whip Silk? While their effects themselves are lackluster, you can start turbo-dredging when you have an Enchantress effect out and mana available.
I completely forgot about Whip Silk. Thanks! I think that will make it's way in. I was also mulling over Fallen Ideal as a repeatable sac/draw outlet, which could also give some needed evasion.
Other than swinging big via Nighthowler or Bonehoard, I'm not sure what another/better wincon could be. I do own an Altar of Dementia and could try milling everyone, including myself for value.
I thought the concept seemed kind of cool and somewhat synergistic: Draw cards with enchantresses, use those draws to dredge, profit from stuff in the yard. I think I have a decent framework here, but I want the deck to have a little bit of a power boost. Not exactly sure what I need to make this deck more fun and able to hold its own in a multiplayer environment. Suggestions more than welcome.
Cards I would consider cutting: Shred Memory - The only useful thing it can tutor up is another real tutor or Thopter Foundry, but it costs 3 mana and can only be used on your turn. Paradoxical Outcome - The majority of your thopters are tokens, so you get no card draw from them with this. There's better out there. Blue Sun's Zenith - UUU Is hard to come by reliably. There's better card draw out there. Pull From Eternity - I'm not sure why this is in here, actually. I mean it's good to get back something someone exiles and can be cute with Delay, but I don't think it deserves a spot. Delay - It's just a temporary counter. It doesn't actually stop anything. You'd be better off with a more situational 2 drop counterspell (ie negate, Essence Scatter) Duplicant - Fantastic card! But not on theme and you don't really have ways to abuse him all that much. Potential keeper, but not very Thoptery Murder - As DementedKirby said, there's better removal than this out there. I'll address it below. Path of Bravery - It might be good if you switched to Sydri as your commander since she can lifelink things, but you have little life gain to get the anthem part, and you only have 8 thopter sources currently, and only 2 of them actually can provide multiple thopters by themselves in a turn, so the attacking portion might not be that relevant. Angel of Invention - Not completely sure how I feel about this card. She creates tokens (not thopters, though) but she'll only be a 2/1 and for 5 mana. It's a bit hefty, but I'm on the fence with her.
Cards I would consider adding: Darksteel Forge - Should definitely not have been cut. This is a fantastic card. If you have trouble finding a spot for it, replace Akroma's Memorial with it. It's much better. Ashes to Ashes - Significantly better removal than Murder. 5 life in commander is a paltry cost to exile 2 creatures. Obelisk of Urd - Should prolly replace Kongming or the Angel, but it's a significant boost, and your thopters can help pay for it. Win/win. Thopter Assembly - With only 8 current sources for thopters, you have to imagine there will be times you have no thopters on the board for whatever reason. This guy is just amazing. Even if you do have thopters and this on the board, you can sac the others to the Iron Works before your turn, cast a nice Stroke of Genius, and then get 5 more thopters on your upkeep. It's just an auto include in my book. Plus you need more thopters. Recurring Insight - This is one of my go-to card draw cards. In a game where card advantage is a big deal, I have never drawn less than 10 cards from this, and it's spread out so you don't have to worry about discarding. Reliquary Tower - Speaking of discarding, this might come in useful. Trinket Mage - Should definitely be kept in. He can tutor up Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and especially Hangarback Walker. Chromatic Lantern - Should replace Dimir Signet. It is THE color fixer mana rock. Rite of Replication - It's fairly standard, but such a good card all around. This on a Sharding Sphinx or Whirler Rogue can be fun. Command Tower - Realized it's missing in the list. Dictate of Heliod - Might be a good replacement for the Angel. Same cost, flash, and bigger boost.
Just some food for thought. I'm almost starting to want to build my own Thopter 'tribal' list. Sounds like a lot of fun.
It might be less unique, but you may consider Sydri, Galvanic Genius as the commander instead. She costs significantly less to cast, can give you some chump blockers in a pinch, and make your thopters deadly. Ertai requires a lot of time and resources to just counter 1 spell.
Thopter Assembly is a fantastic card that should make its way in. Thopter Squadron isn't bad if you can find some simple ways to proliferate or add counters, but I probably wouldn't add it.
Shared Triumph is a good anthem. A high chance you'll be the only person with Thopters anyways.
Mirror Entity is technically a thopter and can make all your thopters super huge, not to mention it makes all your non-thopter creatures thopters, so they'll gain anthem effects as well.
You're missing Fabricate in your tutor package. Although, unless you're going cutthroat straight for Sword/Foundry win, I personally think you run too many tutors, at least for my taste. I also think you run too few lands. 31 even with 7 mana rocks is a bit low. If it were my deck, I would probably cut half the tutors and half the removal/countermagic for some more fun artifact shenanigans.
You could use some sort of recursion. Academy Ruins should be in there. Trading Post is never a bad card.
Overall, I love seeing atypical deck ideas, especially tribal ones. I would focus more on the artifact theme of thopters and cut a lot of the tutors and countermagic. Good luck!
Cards I play in my Tazri deck that do some serious work:
Eerie Interlude - As stated earlier, it does some crazy crazy stuff since all the Allies enter and trigger off seeing each other enter. I would play Ghostway too, but I'm cheap.
Living Death - Same reasoning as Eerie Interlude, and a great way to bounce back from a board wipe or a one-sided board wipe.
Captain's Claws - Creates more allies and pretty cheap. The downside is having to attack to get it.
Cathars' Crusade - With all the creature blinking this just gets nuts.
Just some of my all-stars. I only play 24 allies in my deck (27 creatures total), so I go a bit more control-y. I also run a decent tutor package as well as some ramp spells for fixing.
Updated the deck list. Made some quality improvements. I had little use for the Life from the Loam, so added in cycle lands. Even with the moonfolk I seemed to be acquiring more mana with Kruphix than I could reasonably use for anything. Added in some larger spells and some X spells as well to make use of that mana. It has the potential to be a good threat at the table, though I think that's because everyone expects a Tooth and Nail into a Craterhoof Behemoth/Avenger of Zendikar, which I refuse to play. Although. I still feel I am missing some "big win" type effect. More testing will be needed.
I put it into a semi-artifact-themed shell so that the vehicles could still count for something even if I can't crew them. I was also debating just throwing vehicles into a standard Brago good-stuff shell, but that seemed too boring. I threw together an impromptu list and could use help tightening it up. I'm looking for non-land suggestions. My mana base can always be improved upon.
Without further ado...
4 Brago, King Eternal
Creatures (30)
1 Consulate Dreadnought
2 Etherium Sculptor
2 Gold Myr
2 Heart of Kiran
2 Myr Retriever
2 Silver Myr
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Sram, Senior Edificer
3 Aethersphere Harvester
3 Cultivator's Caravan
3 Masako the Humorless
3 Peacewalker Colossus
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
3 Shimmer Myr
4 Archaeomancer
4 Bomat Bazaar Barge
4 Deadeye Quartermaster
4 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Vedalken Archmage
4 Weatherlight
5 Ballista Charger
5 Ixidron
5 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
6 Demolition Stomper
6 Duplicant
7 Meteor Golem
8 Parhelion II
1 Sol Ring
2 Azorius Signet
2 Ichor Wellspring
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
2 Talisman of Progress
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Commander's Sphere
3 Sculpting Steel
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Unwinding Clock
9 Darksteel Forge
Sorceries (6)
2 Dance of the Manse
3 Fabricate
4 Day of Judgment
4 Supreme Verdict
5 Fumigate
5 Tragic Arrogance
Instants (11)
1 Pongify
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Dramatic Reversal
2 Momentary Blink
3 Eerie Interlude
3 Ghostly Flicker
4 Crush Contraband
4 Turnabout
5 Evacuation
3 Mirrodin Besieged
3 Tempered Steel
Planeswalkers (2)
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
1 Command Tower
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Ghost Quarter
14 Island
1 Lonely Sandbar
13 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Secluded Steppe
I know there are others in these colors like Test of Endurance and Mortal Combat, but I don't want to spread myself too thin. I think the five I've chosen are feasible to give me alternate routes.
There aren't any Orzhov commanders that really stand out to make these win conditions happen, but Krav and Regna from Battlebond come pretty dang close. He's 1/4 of Liliana's Contract, fuels Felidar Soverign, and helps dig out Approach.
This is just a short mock up of my idea. Looking to refine and synergize as much as possible. Comments, critiques, and suggestions welcome.
5 Regna, the Redeemer
6 Krav, the Unredeemed
Creatures
1 Hex Parasite
1 Mother of Runes
1 Soul Warden
1 Viscera Seer
2 Blood Artist
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Mirror Entity
3 Mischievous Poltergeist
3 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
4 Blood Speaker
4 Desecration Demon
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Pitiless Plunderer
5 Archfiend of Depravity
5 Bloodgift Demon
5 Indulgent Tormentor
5 Karmic Guide
6 Demonlord Belzenlok
6 Felidar Sovereign
6 Harvester of Souls
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sol Ring
2 Armillary Sphere
2 Mind Stone
2 Orzhov Signet
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Orzhov Keyrune
4 Hedron Archive
4 Thran Dynamo
Sorceries
1 Reanimate
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Martial Coup
3 Read the Bones
4 Damnation
4 Day of Judgment
4 Mastermind's Acquisition
5 Living Death
6 Phyrexian Rebirth
7 Approach of the Second Sun
Instants
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Plunge into Darkness
3 Make a Stand
3 Mortify
3 Vona's Hunger
4 Utter End
5 Thrilling Encore
1 Land Tax
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Animate Dead
5 Dictate of Erebos
5 Liliana's Contract
5 Near-Death Experience
5 Revel in Riches
Planeswalkers
5 Liliana Vess
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Orzhov Basilica
13 Plains
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Scrubland
15 Swamp
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1 Fumigate
1 Academy Rector
We all know Kari Zev is awesome. Awesome art, awesome flavor, awesome monkey, but she isn't the easiest commander. Originally I tried something thematic and went the threaten route, but in a 4 player game it just isn't a viable strategy to focus on. I decided to stick to more of the swashbuckling theme and went with a voltron-style Kari Zev. I played several games with her and she is more fun than I had expected, but I feel the deck's power level could use a boost.
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
Creatures 18
1 Goblin Welder
2 Bazaar Trader
2 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
2 Humble Defector
3 Burnished Hart
3 Dualcaster Mage
3 Feldon of the Third Path
3 Hanweir Garrison
3 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Ogre Battledriver
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Silent Arbiter
6 Conquering Manticore
6 Godo, Bandit Warlord
6 Inferno Titan
6 Steel Hellkite
6 Wurmcoil Engine
7 Molten Primordial
Artifacts 21
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
2 Culling Dais
2 Hero's Blade
2 Nim Deathmantle
2 Ruby Medallion
2 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Darksteel Plate
3 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Tenza, Godo's Maul
3 Whispersilk Cloak
4 Hedron Archive
4 Helm of Possession
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Trading Post
5 Batterskull
5 Predator, Flagship
6 Staff of Nin
1 Faithless Looting
1 Earthquake
1 Vandalblast
2 Cathartic Reunion
3 Traitorous Blood
3 Wheel of Fortune
5 Mass Mutiny
8 Insurrection
9 Blasphemous Act
Instants 5
2 Magmaquake
2 Reverberate
4 Grab the Reins
5 Act of Aggression
5 Word of Seizing
Enchantments 6
2 Break Through the Line
2 Goblin Bombardment
4 Outpost Siege
5 Berserkers' Onslaught
6 Gratuitous Violence
6 Warstorm Surge
Planeswalkers 2
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Koth of the Hammer
Lands 38
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Flamekin Village
1 Great Furnace
1 Hanweir Battlements
1 Kher Keep
1 Mouth of Ronom
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Scrying Sheets
26 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Temple of the False God
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Notable exclusions because they're in other decks, but can always be pulled if they're necessary:
Solemn Simulacrum
Caged Sun
Extraplanar Lens
Gauntlet of Power
Gilded Lotus
Chaos Warp
Cards considering:
Strata Scythe
Trash for Treasure
I'm not sure if the interaction with Bazaar Trader and the threaten effects is too cute.
Any thoughts and/or opinions would be appreciated.
I find myself lacking sufficient ways to end the game. Maybe it's a lack of tutors or ways to get key cards back after milled into the graveyard.
It's basically waiting to find Nighthowler or Bonehoard and swing. I'm open to any suggestions on tightening up the deck and make it possibly a little less durddly and more focused.
I completely forgot about Whip Silk. Thanks! I think that will make it's way in. I was also mulling over Fallen Ideal as a repeatable sac/draw outlet, which could also give some needed evasion.
Removed:
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Darkblast
Pharika's Mender
Kessig Cagebreakers
Mimic Vat
Black Sun's Zenith
Wood Elves
Added:
Nyx Weaver - should've been there in the first place
Hermit Druid - also should've been there in the first place
Yavimaya Elder - better than the sakura-tribe elder
Archetype of Finality - just to try out
Bonehoard - seems on theme
Extinguish All Hope - also seems on theme
Ancestral Mask - possible wincon
Cards looking at:
Vessel of Nascency
Commune with the Gods
Mulch
Palace Siege
Other than swinging big via Nighthowler or Bonehoard, I'm not sure what another/better wincon could be. I do own an Altar of Dementia and could try milling everyone, including myself for value.
Cards I'm potentially looking into:
Words of Waste
Words of Wilding
3 Pharika, God of Affliction
Creatures: 29
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Argothian Enchantress
2 Herald of the Pantheon
2 Hermit Druid
2 Lotleth Troll
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Boon Satyr
3 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
3 Grim Guardian
3 Nighthowler
3 Noble Quarry
3 Nyx Weaver
3 Shambling Shell
3 Stinkweed Imp
3 Verduran Enchantress
3 Yavimaya Elder
4 Agent of Erebos
4 Blightcaster
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Erebos's Emissary
4 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4 Nylea, God of the Hunt
5 Doomwake Giant
5 Golgari Grave-Troll
6 Thoughtrender Lamia
1 Helm of the Gods
1 Sol Ring
3 Bow of Nylea
3 Chromatic Lantern
4 Bonehoard
Sorceries: 9
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Life from the Loam
3 Reviving Melody
4 Diabolic Tutor
4 Jarad's Orders
4 Skyshroud Claim
5 Spider Spawning
6 Extinguish All Hope
Instants: 3
3 Beast Within
3 Krosan Grip
3 Putrefy
Enchantments: 15
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Rancor
1 Whip Silk
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Strength from the Fallen
2 Sylvan Library
3 Ancestral Mask
3 Attrition
3 Enchantress's Presence
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Song of the Dryads
4 Pestilence
5 Dictate of Erebos
5 Palace Siege
6 Deadbridge Chant
5 Vraska the Unseen
Lands: 37
1 Barren Moor
1 Bayou
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Command Tower
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Evolving Wilds
6 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Jungle Hollow
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Polluted Mire
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Slippery Karst
5 Swamp
1 Tainted Wood
1 Temple of the False God
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya Hollow
Updated 3/16
Personally, I think it is. I play Break Through the Line in my Kari deck.
It's awesome with Grenzo, Hanweir Garrison, Marton, etc.
Also, Sisay's Ring should go to Thran Dynamo. 100% upgrade.
Your deck definitely inspired me to slap together my own list for a Kari Zev pirate theft deck.
Shred Memory - The only useful thing it can tutor up is another real tutor or Thopter Foundry, but it costs 3 mana and can only be used on your turn.
Paradoxical Outcome - The majority of your thopters are tokens, so you get no card draw from them with this. There's better out there.
Blue Sun's Zenith - UUU Is hard to come by reliably. There's better card draw out there.
Pull From Eternity - I'm not sure why this is in here, actually. I mean it's good to get back something someone exiles and can be cute with Delay, but I don't think it deserves a spot.
Delay - It's just a temporary counter. It doesn't actually stop anything. You'd be better off with a more situational 2 drop counterspell (ie negate, Essence Scatter)
Duplicant - Fantastic card! But not on theme and you don't really have ways to abuse him all that much. Potential keeper, but not very Thoptery
Murder - As DementedKirby said, there's better removal than this out there. I'll address it below.
Path of Bravery - It might be good if you switched to Sydri as your commander since she can lifelink things, but you have little life gain to get the anthem part, and you only have 8 thopter sources currently, and only 2 of them actually can provide multiple thopters by themselves in a turn, so the attacking portion might not be that relevant.
Angel of Invention - Not completely sure how I feel about this card. She creates tokens (not thopters, though) but she'll only be a 2/1 and for 5 mana. It's a bit hefty, but I'm on the fence with her.
Cards I would consider adding:
Darksteel Forge - Should definitely not have been cut. This is a fantastic card. If you have trouble finding a spot for it, replace Akroma's Memorial with it. It's much better.
Ashes to Ashes - Significantly better removal than Murder. 5 life in commander is a paltry cost to exile 2 creatures.
Obelisk of Urd - Should prolly replace Kongming or the Angel, but it's a significant boost, and your thopters can help pay for it. Win/win.
Thopter Assembly - With only 8 current sources for thopters, you have to imagine there will be times you have no thopters on the board for whatever reason. This guy is just amazing. Even if you do have thopters and this on the board, you can sac the others to the Iron Works before your turn, cast a nice Stroke of Genius, and then get 5 more thopters on your upkeep. It's just an auto include in my book. Plus you need more thopters.
Recurring Insight - This is one of my go-to card draw cards. In a game where card advantage is a big deal, I have never drawn less than 10 cards from this, and it's spread out so you don't have to worry about discarding.
Reliquary Tower - Speaking of discarding, this might come in useful.
Trinket Mage - Should definitely be kept in. He can tutor up Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and especially Hangarback Walker.
Chromatic Lantern - Should replace Dimir Signet. It is THE color fixer mana rock.
Rite of Replication - It's fairly standard, but such a good card all around. This on a Sharding Sphinx or Whirler Rogue can be fun.
Command Tower - Realized it's missing in the list.
Dictate of Heliod - Might be a good replacement for the Angel. Same cost, flash, and bigger boost.
Just some food for thought. I'm almost starting to want to build my own Thopter 'tribal' list. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Thopter Assembly is a fantastic card that should make its way in. Thopter Squadron isn't bad if you can find some simple ways to proliferate or add counters, but I probably wouldn't add it.
Shared Triumph is a good anthem. A high chance you'll be the only person with Thopters anyways.
Mirror Entity is technically a thopter and can make all your thopters super huge, not to mention it makes all your non-thopter creatures thopters, so they'll gain anthem effects as well.
You're missing Fabricate in your tutor package. Although, unless you're going cutthroat straight for Sword/Foundry win, I personally think you run too many tutors, at least for my taste. I also think you run too few lands. 31 even with 7 mana rocks is a bit low. If it were my deck, I would probably cut half the tutors and half the removal/countermagic for some more fun artifact shenanigans.
You could use some sort of recursion. Academy Ruins should be in there. Trading Post is never a bad card.
Overall, I love seeing atypical deck ideas, especially tribal ones. I would focus more on the artifact theme of thopters and cut a lot of the tutors and countermagic. Good luck!
Eerie Interlude - As stated earlier, it does some crazy crazy stuff since all the Allies enter and trigger off seeing each other enter. I would play Ghostway too, but I'm cheap.
Living Death - Same reasoning as Eerie Interlude, and a great way to bounce back from a board wipe or a one-sided board wipe.
Legion's Initiative - Another mass blink effect and removal dodge.
Captain's Claws - Creates more allies and pretty cheap. The downside is having to attack to get it.
Cathars' Crusade - With all the creature blinking this just gets nuts.
Just some of my all-stars. I only play 24 allies in my deck (27 creatures total), so I go a bit more control-y. I also run a decent tutor package as well as some ramp spells for fixing.