I'm having trouble deciding what I think about Karn in our deck. There's a number of cards we could put in the sideboard to wish up with them, but he's also rather slow in that way.
think about it this way:
we have a very castable, persistent tutor available for the deck now. Consistency is key to this.
also consider - new Karn costs 4. if you've got tron up turn 3 you can cast him, wish for an artifact that costs 3 or less, and cast it straight away (bridge, o-stone, needle effects, whatever. some of these effects can completely stall an opponent whereas others can buy you time or shut down a combo)
Imagine if your deck had (effectively) 7 oblivion stones, except four of them could magically be a different powerful card if you needed it. (scenario where 3 o-stone maindeck and 1 sideboard as a wish target, with 4 maindeck karns).
what's more, the card quickly leaves the realm of cute consistency card and becomes a game-breaking wincon when you have 10 mana available. mycosynth lattice is the most obvious choice (of course) and you don't need to dilute your maindeck with it either. having an on-demand, one-sided 'stony silence' type effect for everything is pretty ridiculous. 10 mana on turn four/five isn't a ridiculous scenario either.
if we've got a card that can be a versatile consistency toolbox-piece in the early game and a ridiculous wincon in the late game, I'm thinking it's got to be worth testing in the deck. If anything, Tron could use a little more of a toolbox-y style of play, the ability to be a bit more 'agile' in the metagame.
But does any of that really make the deck better though? You mention Needle effects and Ensnaring Bridge - these aren't cards that Tron even wants for the most part, and having a tutor for them doesn't change that. Same goes for any random artifact - if it were good in the deck, we'd already be playing it. So, as an easy example, we take the artifacts the deck actually wants (Relic, Wurmcoil, Ballista, Ostone) and just shave one of each from the maindeck and put them into the sideboard, and put 4 Great Creators in their place. We'll need a Lattice in the SB as well. So which 5 sideboard cards do you cut to make this work, and is the resulting deck better against the field than before? I think the answer is no in any case.
I think Karn, the Great Creator is worth it if you put a Mycosynth Lattice in the wishboard. Shutting out all opposing lands, planeswalkers, and other activated abilities on permanents is pretty potent, and it can definitely help you stabilize. Even better, Gx Tron can often slam down both parts of the combo in the same turn. The Lattice combo is at its best against combo decks like UR Storm, though.
I got a few test games with Karn GC against UR Phoenix, and thank goodness I also put the 4th Oblivion Stone in the wishboard. Aggressive enough decks, such as UR Phoenix, force us to prioritize eliminating their dudes over preventing them from playing stuff for the rest of the game.
Lattice with Great Creator is definitely a strong combo, but I'm still skeptical that it's something we want to be doing. Please, share your list, I'd like to take a look.
I can't imagine it being worth using valuable sideboard slots for us to go the wish-board route, and one of our biggest issues as it is is getting on the board fast enough. Playing Great Creator would just slow things down even more which does not seem good. Besides, Karning up cards that are already in our maindeck doesn't really seem necessary - our card selection is already good as it is.
The fact that it can return an exiled artifact is a little more interesting - it would allow us to recycle Relics multiple times, for example, but even something like that requires pretty specific circumstances such that it would likely not be worth playing the card.
As for opposing prison decks playing it, yeah, it's a good card against us, but I don't think it changes the matchups a huge amount. When you consider how little play those decks see due to how easy to hate out they are, it's not a big concern.
Tons of fair decks in the queues, both UWx and BGx, with BG Rock in particular taking almost all the meta share from Jund. That deck is our nemesis right now - very close matchup and I like having additional sideboard cards for it.
What additional cards do you like in the SB for it? Your most recent SB guide seemed to have a fairly standard SB; are you talking about the move to 4 Tusk?
Tarmogoyfs and/or Crucible of Worlds. Yes, the guide has a more standard SB. This is because TKS has proven itself in the deck over a long period of time and I still think it's the better card overall so I would rather advocate that. If this type of meta continues to persist then I would consider using Goyf as a staple and reflecting that in the guide, but as of now it hasn't held down a consistent spot in my SB for a significant amount of time. I updated the "Notable omissions" section in the guide to clarify this. There are new sets coming out in each of the next 3 months so there will be plenty of opportunity for potential shakeups and revisions to the guide.
How do you feel about the mill MU with Ulamog in your SB? What does your SB look like right now?
I assume the matchup gets way better with the Ulamog but I haven't had it in my deck any time I've run into it so far. I think it basically requires them to Surgical/Extirpate it or they can't really win, so if they just don't draw one or burn their copy on a Tron land, I think we win most of the time. That being said I'm not sure it's worth the slot. The card does have other applications but they're fairly weak. Unless the deck becomes more popular I should probably just look at it as if it were Infect and just accept the loss and move on. It is popular right now though because it beats Phoenix.
As for what my sideboard looks like, it honestly changes almost every league right now, because I am flip-flopping between TKS and Goyf, doing weird stuff like Ulamog, I just settled on Dismembers over Contortions recently, etc. Image attached of today's iteration though.
Also, with all the aggro and midrange decks not playing Path, have you considered moving to 4 Wurmcoil (potentially over 4th Stone)?
Yes, I did that for a bunch of leagues, and I also cut the 4th Stone for a bit as well. It's a fine plan but I don't think strictly better or worse than an average list, just depends what you want to hedge against more.
This is from 203 matches I played in March on MTGO, about half in Friendly and half in Competitive. I transitioned back to Comp full-time after I felt I gathered enough data from Friendly, and got a bit bored of the lower level of competition/playing against weird decks.
Blue Moon, Jund Shadow, Jeskai Tempo, Hatebears, RG Aggro, Death's Shadow Zoo, Eldrazi Tron, Colorless Eldrazi, Mono Red Prison, Electrodominance all had 2MP.
Ponza, Boggles, Ad Nauseam, Living End, Grixis Delver, Restore Balance, 8Rack, Grixis Control, Mono Red Frenzy, Soul Sisters, Sun and Moon, Esper Control, Vannifar Pod and 8 "Others" had 1MP.
My biggest takeaway from this month is the death of Humans has been greatly exaggerated, as it was actually right near the top in terms of encounters. I guess they have enough tools to fight back against all those TiTis, one of which is Damping Sphere which is often a 2-of in their sideboard now, as opposed to 0-1 before. So I would advise packing Nature's Claims post-board.
Phoenix variants technically at the top but not an overwhelming presence by any means. I'm confident in the matchup despite being Thought Scour-Surgicaled 3 times in the month.
Tons of fair decks in the queues, both UWx and BGx, with BG Rock in particular taking almost all the meta share from Jund. That deck is our nemesis right now - very close matchup and I like having additional sideboard cards for it. Grixis Shadow right up near the top of the pack as well. Add those 3 together plus everything else (4 Mardu Pyro, 3 BW Midrange, 3 Eldrazi Taxes, 2 Blue Moon, 2 Jund Shadow, 2 Jeskai Tempo, 2 Death's Shadow Zoo, 1 Grixis Delver, 1 Grixis Control, 1 Esper Control) - that's almost 32% of the meta as highly interactive/midrangey/controlly decks. I dont remember the last time I saw the format look this interactive. This is a reaction to Phoenix being the deck to beat, for sure.
I ran into UB Mill 4 times, which I think is a record in one month. Full disclosure there is an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre in my sideboard right now
Whir Prison only 3 encounters, which was somewhat surprising. The deck is super powerful but on the other hand really easy to hate out, so I suspect its presence will ebb and flow.
Sure, at the FNM level that would be fine. Currently for the most part, the only popular decks you really want Chalice against are Phoenix, Burn and Shadow, and there are other tools you can use for those. Maxing out on Dismembers would help against Phoenix and Shadow, and having a bunch of Warping Wails would help against Phoenix and Burn, as examples. Cutting the Chalices also allows you to be more liberal with 1-mana spells because you don't have to worry about the nonbo factor, so you could play as many as 4 Relics main if it suited you, to help fight Phoenix, Dredge (which is a matchup that requires a lot of help), Shadow, etc. Hell, you could even jump straight on the degeneracy train with everyone else these days and play Surgical main. Would be nice in the Tron matchup with the Ghost Quarters.
And today got paired against the OG mainboard Surgical deck, Mill. I don't even bother playing it out when I get paired against it anymore, I just scoop match instantly. It's very temping to put one of the original Eldrazi Titans in my SB to fight it, but it's such a fringe pairing that it's probably not worth it. If I were to do that though, I'd probably go with Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre as it probably has the best applications against the field, being good in the Tron mirror and the prison matchups where the other 2 wouldn't be, as well as against UW where the other 2 would probably be better, but not by a huge amount. UIG would also come in against Titan Shift and Ad Naus, basically just acting as a 3rd, but worse Ceaseless Hunger.
Ohhh, well if they were on Surgical maindeck that's a whole different ballgame. It seems to be in vogue now, unfortunately.
I've been thinking about this a bit more, particularly in regards to the UR Phoenix matchup. Twice in the past several days I've had a Phoenix opponent go turn 1 Thought Scour me, flip Tower over then Surgical it. Now, this isn't gonna happen that often, particularly not on turn 1 like that (it's about a 2.6% chance by my calculations), but given how easy it is for them to find specific cards, this percentage goes up as turns go on. Just felt like mentioning that now that 2 Surgicals main has become standard. I still think the matchup is squarely favorable for us overall but this is definitely a way they can get us a small percentage of the time, and boy does it leave a sour taste in your mouth when it happens.
Also, a friend told me he played against Grixis Shadow with Surgical main today as well, which also has the combo with Thought Scour, though looking at lists this does seem to be an anomaly. Racerxen's 8rack opponent, same story. It's a trend that's decidedly not good for us, and is really indicative of how warped the format has become.
Yep I'm still firmly on 5 basics; BGx is really popular online and so is UW, a bit less so. I'm seeing it so much that I'm actually slipping a Goyf or 2 back into my SB lately.
Going down to 3 O-Stones in favor of another "3 drop" does make sense in this meta, although oddly I'm seeing more Humans and less Phoenix lately. I'll probably give it a shot.
I've been lukewarm on Surgical for quite a while - basically since Dredge got Creeping Chill. The card definitely has its uses but I don't think it's necessary in Tron at all right now.
What was the lack of prep vs 8Rack? I think you just want Claims and Thragtusks. Crucible is great if you have it. I think the matchup mostly hinges on 1 card - Smallpox. If they fire that off early, it's really tough (assuming they're pressuring us too), but if they don't have it, it's really easy because they have no other way to keep us off Tron and we topdeck very well. I actually played against it a couple days ago - ended up restarting the game with 5 Swamps and my own Thragtusk in play and played a turn 1 Wurmcoil
Anyone have any SB tech options vs Whir Prison? It's too bad that Creeping Corrosion doesn't have the anti-regenerate clause. Was wondering if you guys had any other viable options.
There's not really that much tech for the matchup because our deck is basically already anti-Whir Prison tech. It's a stellar matchup. They don't have enough Spyglasses to cover everything, so unless they manage to put together the Tectonic Edge+Crucible of Worlds combo fast enough and prevent you from thwarting it with a Relic of Progenitus, the first game is yours. Even in the second all they can really do is hope to beat you down with Sai or kill you with Tezzeret before you break your way through their defenses.
Interesting perspective; in my experience the matchup isn't very good at all. You missed a couple key points I think - the 4 maindeck Chalice of the Void is not a good time for us, especially with 4 Welding Jar to keep it around if we manage to slip O-Stone past Spyglass. And 4 Whir of Invention with the maindeck Damping Sphere, giving them effectively 5 copies of it. Same goes for Spyglass of which they have 2 main and 2 more in the sideboard. 4 is definitely enough to cover everything, but even in game 1 they really only need 1 quickly to shut off O-Stone which then buys them tons of time to set the lock up further. They have all the tools to shut down our gameplan, and given how redundant/full of tutors the deck is, I think they'll succeed more often than not. Currently my record in the matchup is 4-6.
Buried in all the Looting hysteria Sam Black top 8'd Tampa with good old Lantern Control. Interesting to see given that Whir Prison has essentially taken its place recently. I guess being able to play a bunch of Surgicals main in a prison shell (which isn't something Whir can really do due to its Chalice plan) is an enticing prospect in this meta.
Be honest. You just want an uptick in these types of decks because they're easy targets for Tron, especially Lantern.
Haha nope, not if Black's list got adopted. 3 Assassin's Trophy and 2 Ghost Quarter to go with the 3 Surgicals isn't my idea of a good time. And Whir Prison is favored against Tron.
Buried in all the Looting hysteria Sam Black top 8'd Tampa with good old Lantern Control. Interesting to see given that Whir Prison has essentially taken its place recently. I guess being able to play a bunch of Surgicals main in a prison shell (which isn't something Whir can really do due to its Chalice plan) is an enticing prospect in this meta.
The fact that it can return an exiled artifact is a little more interesting - it would allow us to recycle Relics multiple times, for example, but even something like that requires pretty specific circumstances such that it would likely not be worth playing the card.
As for opposing prison decks playing it, yeah, it's a good card against us, but I don't think it changes the matchups a huge amount. When you consider how little play those decks see due to how easy to hate out they are, it's not a big concern.
I assume the matchup gets way better with the Ulamog but I haven't had it in my deck any time I've run into it so far. I think it basically requires them to Surgical/Extirpate it or they can't really win, so if they just don't draw one or burn their copy on a Tron land, I think we win most of the time. That being said I'm not sure it's worth the slot. The card does have other applications but they're fairly weak. Unless the deck becomes more popular I should probably just look at it as if it were Infect and just accept the loss and move on. It is popular right now though because it beats Phoenix.
As for what my sideboard looks like, it honestly changes almost every league right now, because I am flip-flopping between TKS and Goyf, doing weird stuff like Ulamog, I just settled on Dismembers over Contortions recently, etc. Image attached of today's iteration though.
Yes, I did that for a bunch of leagues, and I also cut the 4th Stone for a bit as well. It's a fine plan but I don't think strictly better or worse than an average list, just depends what you want to hedge against more.
This is from 203 matches I played in March on MTGO, about half in Friendly and half in Competitive. I transitioned back to Comp full-time after I felt I gathered enough data from Friendly, and got a bit bored of the lower level of competition/playing against weird decks.
Arclight Phoenix decks: 7.39% (15 MP) (UR 6.4%/13 MP, Mono R 0.49%/1 MP, Hollow Phoenix 0.49%/1 MP)
UWx Control: 6.9% (14 MP) (UW 5.91%/12 MP, Jeskai 0.99%/2 MP)
BGx: 6.9% (14 MP) (BG 4.93%/10 MP, Jund 1.48%/3 MP, Abzan 0.49%/1 MP)
Humans: 6.4% (13 MP)
Grixis Shadow: 6.4% (13 MP)
Gx Tron: 5.91% (12 MP)
Dredge: 4.93% (10 MP)
Burn: 4.93% (10 MP)
Titan Shift: 2.96% (6 MP)
Hardened Scales: 2.46% (5 MP)
Eldrazi Taxes: 2.46% (5 MP)
Mardu Pyro: 1.97% (4 MP)
Merfolk: 1.97% (4 MP)
Wilderness Rec: 1.97% (4 MP)
UB Mill: 1.97% (4 MP)
Whir Prison: 1.48% (3 MP)
Spirits: 1.48% (3 MP)
Hollow One: 1.48% (3 MP)
Amulet: 1.48% (3 MP)
Affinity: 1.48% (3 MP)
Storm: 1.48% (3 MP)
Lantern: 1.48% (3 MP)
BW Midrange: 1.48% (3 MP)
Blue Moon, Jund Shadow, Jeskai Tempo, Hatebears, RG Aggro, Death's Shadow Zoo, Eldrazi Tron, Colorless Eldrazi, Mono Red Prison, Electrodominance all had 2MP.
Ponza, Boggles, Ad Nauseam, Living End, Grixis Delver, Restore Balance, 8Rack, Grixis Control, Mono Red Frenzy, Soul Sisters, Sun and Moon, Esper Control, Vannifar Pod and 8 "Others" had 1MP.
My biggest takeaway from this month is the death of Humans has been greatly exaggerated, as it was actually right near the top in terms of encounters. I guess they have enough tools to fight back against all those TiTis, one of which is Damping Sphere which is often a 2-of in their sideboard now, as opposed to 0-1 before. So I would advise packing Nature's Claims post-board.
Phoenix variants technically at the top but not an overwhelming presence by any means. I'm confident in the matchup despite being Thought Scour-Surgicaled 3 times in the month.
Tons of fair decks in the queues, both UWx and BGx, with BG Rock in particular taking almost all the meta share from Jund. That deck is our nemesis right now - very close matchup and I like having additional sideboard cards for it. Grixis Shadow right up near the top of the pack as well. Add those 3 together plus everything else (4 Mardu Pyro, 3 BW Midrange, 3 Eldrazi Taxes, 2 Blue Moon, 2 Jund Shadow, 2 Jeskai Tempo, 2 Death's Shadow Zoo, 1 Grixis Delver, 1 Grixis Control, 1 Esper Control) - that's almost 32% of the meta as highly interactive/midrangey/controlly decks. I dont remember the last time I saw the format look this interactive. This is a reaction to Phoenix being the deck to beat, for sure.
I ran into UB Mill 4 times, which I think is a record in one month. Full disclosure there is an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre in my sideboard right now
Whir Prison only 3 encounters, which was somewhat surprising. The deck is super powerful but on the other hand really easy to hate out, so I suspect its presence will ebb and flow.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PRSXde_JZohv3mfYBgCKlzXJA1cWe_auuOaGMJ_fJ00/edit?usp=sharing
Also will have a metagame report for March coming tomorrow.
Also, a friend told me he played against Grixis Shadow with Surgical main today as well, which also has the combo with Thought Scour, though looking at lists this does seem to be an anomaly. Racerxen's 8rack opponent, same story. It's a trend that's decidedly not good for us, and is really indicative of how warped the format has become.
Yep I'm still firmly on 5 basics; BGx is really popular online and so is UW, a bit less so. I'm seeing it so much that I'm actually slipping a Goyf or 2 back into my SB lately.
Going down to 3 O-Stones in favor of another "3 drop" does make sense in this meta, although oddly I'm seeing more Humans and less Phoenix lately. I'll probably give it a shot.
I've been lukewarm on Surgical for quite a while - basically since Dredge got Creeping Chill. The card definitely has its uses but I don't think it's necessary in Tron at all right now.