I don't think blue exile effects are outside the colour pie when they're transform effects. All of these cards are descendants of Pongify, from Planar Chaos.
Green dragons, and indeed green fliers, aren't outside the colour pie - but green having fewer fliers than other colours is. So it's not at all clear why it would want more dragons particularly. You obviously expect blue and white to have more fliers of all sorts than green, in particular.
Hmm I beg to differ - both blue exile effects and green dragons are outside the typical pie.
Planar Chaos was all about going outside the color pie. Every single card. If a card is going descended from a planar Chaos printed card, it pretty much is by definition outside the pie or at least very significantly stretching it.
I'll agree green FLYERS are outside the pie. But Green Dragons shouldn't be very far outside the pie- Flavorwise, dragons are big beasties and green is the bomb at having the beasties so it should have more of them.
for special sets like Dragons of Tarkir that are all about the dragons, there should be some in the form of green dragon- which there are. I just wish there were more. It's crazy that blue has 2x as many exile creature effects -which are very out of pie- as green has dragons.
To be fair, blue's exile creature effects (I'm assuming you're talking about Curse of the Swine and Reality Shift) are essentially Polymorph effects, which is something blue has always had since Mirage. On the other hand, Green isn't particular a color of fliers, but it usually gets the most flying hate to counteract that (reach and cards that destroy things with flying).
To be fair dragons are something green has had since mirage with canopy dragon leading the way. Blue isn't particularly the color of creature removal, but it usually gets counterspells which are even better and stop creatures before they happen.
I see you have mono blue, red, and white decks, but no mono-green decks.
I understand you're only into protesting injustice when it affects you.
you obviously just don't understand the need to...
Ugh two green rares that aren't monogreen flying dragons - yuck. Green really needs more monogreen flyers. BAD. At least the spots aren't entirely wasted.
A reachy - kalonian tusker that is sometimes bigger - snore. you spikes can take him.
I am however very excited for assault formation, mostly because it gives me a second, harder to kill doran.
It isn't playable in standard constructed due to a need for better tutoring - best options are 5 or 6cc.
That said, this card should've been white all the way - which cares more about toughness and has rolling stones
Both these cards read to me as very clear - cards that were shoved in green to make green players happy and distracted from the fact we aren't giving green many good flyers.
Yea...that's how color pie works.
Yea... well how is a set with DRAGONS in the name supposed to work?
I think all colors should be getting their fair share of dragons. Even the Dragonlord Sarkhan is green! Where the green dragons at?!
I don't understand how wizards rationalizes blue exile creature effects time and time again but hardly budges on big green fliers.
Ugh two green rares that aren't monogreen flying dragons - yuck. Green really needs more monogreen flyers. BAD. At least the spots aren't entirely wasted.
A reachy - kalonian tusker that is sometimes bigger - snore. you spikes can take him.
I am however very excited for assault formation, mostly because it gives me a second, harder to kill doran.
It isn't playable in standard constructed due to a need for better tutoring - best options are 5 or 6cc.
That said, this card should've been white all the way - which cares more about toughness and has rolling stones
Both these cards read to me as very clear - cards that were shoved in green to make green players happy and distracted from the fact we aren't giving green many good flyers.
I can't believe nobody has speculated that this portents some serious artifact critters coming down the pipe. Perhaps artifact dragons??? There's a couple of hints that artifact creatures maybe coming - dragon throne artifact, tomb of the spirit dragon, ghostfire blade.
I disagree about how high visibility Avacyn is. Her abilities aren't nearly as devastating as her previous version and as a result, I see her getting underestimated time and time again.
You sorta can't win this argument. The weaker she appears, the more of a potential sleeper she is.
While, I'm fine with the idea of frame change, the actual results we've been getting are crap. Why do the designers feel the need to replicate Mac Os look in a game that has nothing to do with computers?! I think it's because they are tooling around on their apple computers and slowly, almost unconsciously replicate the look of the apple software.
Why can't Magic have it's own unique visual style identity that does not involve tabby curvy digital lines? Lord knows they are dumping top dollar into the art for the cards. How about something more in line with the design of the back of the cards like a raggedy magical scroll.
For shards of alara grixis ability could've been pseduo gilded drake ability on critters like:
Switcheroo: When this creature enters the battlefield you may pay X which is the difference in cost between this and another target creature's casting cost. If you do exchange control of these creatures. X can't be less than 0.
I agree that wizards really shoehorned the blue zombies in. While I can respect the idea of an occasional blue lich lord type zombie I think things got out of hand in innestrad when the hordes of brainless mono blue zombies came into existence. The golden rule of magic that blue gets everything was reaffirmed when it conquered the tribe that is in direct opposition to it's most basic strategy of mental magic and trickiness. I enjoy some color shifting, but it becomes dumb when the color shifts outnumber the better combination from a flavor perspective. We now have way too many blue zombies.
The real driving force here is the color pie. BG Zombies are only often available in sets with enemy color support. Fortunately with Theros, wizards seems to be moving in the right direction with random enemy color support where it makes sense from a flavor perspective. What they really need to do is have sets where enemy colored support is dominant not just equal. Only then will combos that really make sense like BG Zombies have adequate card support.
ps. Shards block unearth seems forced in blue and should've been a green ability: it's creature based and involves haste which is more green than blue. This would've given us more green zombies since that block had a few grixis ones.
pps. Thraximundar should be green instead of blue: +1 counters are more green than blue.
ppps. Innestrad should've been Vamps-BU Humans-UW Zombies-BG Werewoves-RG Spirits-WR Reasoning Vamps are way more U than Zombies. Humans are tricky/wizardy. Spirits are fickle chaotic.
I have a question involving Derevi, Empyrial Tactician:
If I have Derevi in play and attack with multiple creatures, they go unblocked and I get multiple triggered untaps, can I target the same permanent multiple times like Arcanis the omnipotent and use arcanis's tap ability in between each untap trigger? Or do I not have a chance to respond to each trigger.
Except Boon Satyr's bestow cost is 5, not 102, and I've already addressed the issue by pointing out that it can conceivably be played for its bestow cost in competitive constructed quite easily. To say that the cost/option is unplayable means you'll never pay that cost, whether because you don't want to or can't, whereas if you have 5 mana and a creature (quite realistic conditions), you'll almost always bestow the Satyr.
Even the weak kicker effect of that Blade would occasionally be used if the kicker cost were 3 or even 5, just because it doesn't cost a card and gives you something to do with excess mana. Paying an extra 2 to bestow the Satyr is both significantly more impactful and less of an extra cost.
I composed this before your edit, but it really doesn't change things except now you're just contradicting yourself. If the mechanic were unplayable, it would never be relevant.
Consider: are creatures unplayable because the vast majority of creature cards printed are unplayable?
I suspect your issue is primarily one of semantics, though. Statements like "bestow is unplayable" or "creatures are unplayable" only have the meanings we attribute to them.
It's obviously not good design to just staple two costs together because they don't scale linearly. At low costs you're essentially getting a free card, and at high costs (such as 8) you won't get there often enough to justify it.
Tzefick believes 7 is too high for the effect, and I was pointing out that it's pretty fair, actually, for what you're getting from an optional cost.
Edit: Also, options are only good if there are good reasons to play either one. If Archon's bestow cost were only 1 more than its mana cost, it'd almost never be played as a creature, because getting one more land is a lot more feasible than getting two more.
I think you're too caught up in seeing these cards as creatures with a kicker like ability option. Which is obviously how the designers saw them and costed them.
I want to see them primarily as auras and I want to play more than boon satyr in constructed formats. I want to be able to play all of them in jank voltron edh decks. I won't though because there are so many better options: licids, griffin guide, equipment.
You state that if celestial archon were costed only 1 cheaper it would almost never be cast as creature. I wish it were never cast as a creature. We already have plenty of creatures in this game. We only have a handful of cards with bestow. Shouldn't I want to use this new exciting ability more often than not using it? Isn't the goal of having a new ability to be used?
Bestow is also not all upside. Putting all of your eggs on one creature makes it susceptible to tapping abilities and pacifism abilities.
Kitchen finks is more than just garuk's messenger + savannah lions. Its biggest function is that it gains you life, stopping aggro in it's tracks and also going infinite. This life gain is essentially given free. Also the mana cost of garuk's messenger and lions are all colored vs the hybrid mana cost of finks makes the finks much easier to cast and effectively cheaper.
More cards than not with persist have etb or sacrifice abilities tacked on that after the persist "creature" iterations are factored in, they abilities are essentially free see: murderous red cap puppeteer clique aerie ouphes
Why can't bestow it's ability give us a slight efficiency reduction that makes it at least somewhat ahead of the curve and desirable compared to these other abilities like persist, undying, flashback?
Wow, some guys just don't get it... Look, Bestow has a high cost simply because CREATURES ARE FRAGILE. If the bestow cost was cheaper than the cards ACTUAL cost, then it becomes easy to cheat creatures into play...
Just imagine it, if you had in you hand 4 copies of something like:
Magical Bear :1mana::symg:
Enchantment Creature - Bear
Enchanted Creature gets +2/+2
Bestow
2/2
and 4 green mana sources, and a Wild Cantor in play, you can effectively cast 4 bears for just :symg::symg::symg::symg: via enchanting wild cantor w/ all 4 then saccing it, instead of :4mana::symg::symg::symg::symg:. But that's just on the small scale too.
Just take Nighthowler for example. If its bestow cost was :symb::symb: instead, it would've been a ridiculous card.
Right now, Bestow is good the way it is.
hahaha if we're casting bears with perfect hands how about four burning tree emmisaries for two mana. It takes one less card and two less mana than your proposed "broken play"
I'm totally fine with people 2 for 1ing themselves in order to cheat out slightly cheaper creatures. Don't forget the targets for failed bestow also cost mana so it makes it quite difficult to get a boon unless the bestow cost is far below actual cost. Even with cards like wild cantor you'd have to pay for your bestow costs before you get that one mana back from the cantor.
My favorite card is hobble because it removes dangerous attacking creatures from the equation while providing card advantage, but is not powerful enough to warrant a spiteful response in multiplayer since it is undoable and still allows blocking and activating abilities.
Hmm I beg to differ - both blue exile effects and green dragons are outside the typical pie.
Planar Chaos was all about going outside the color pie. Every single card. If a card is going descended from a planar Chaos printed card, it pretty much is by definition outside the pie or at least very significantly stretching it.
I'll agree green FLYERS are outside the pie. But Green Dragons shouldn't be very far outside the pie- Flavorwise, dragons are big beasties and green is the bomb at having the beasties so it should have more of them.
for special sets like Dragons of Tarkir that are all about the dragons, there should be some in the form of green dragon- which there are. I just wish there were more. It's crazy that blue has 2x as many exile creature effects -which are very out of pie- as green has dragons.
LET THERE BE GREEN DRAGONS!
edit:
To be fair dragons are something green has had since mirage with canopy dragon leading the way. Blue isn't particularly the color of creature removal, but it usually gets counterspells which are even better and stop creatures before they happen.
damn straight. PRINT 'em.
I understand you're only into protesting injustice when it affects you.
you obviously just don't understand the need to...
PRINT GREEN DRAGONS!
There are 3 monogreen dragons in existence before this set - that's two less than black, three less than blue and four less than white - wtf?
Who cares what Maro says? They stretch the color pie all the time for their own agendas - for example - blue exile creature effects.
PRINT GREEN DRAGONS!
Yea... well how is a set with DRAGONS in the name supposed to work?
I think all colors should be getting their fair share of dragons. Even the Dragonlord Sarkhan is green! Where the green dragons at?!
I don't understand how wizards rationalizes blue exile creature effects time and time again but hardly budges on big green fliers.
Edit - HALEILUGH - a 3/3 flyer with megamorph!
A reachy - kalonian tusker that is sometimes bigger - snore. you spikes can take him.
I am however very excited for assault formation, mostly because it gives me a second, harder to kill doran.
It isn't playable in standard constructed due to a need for better tutoring - best options are 5 or 6cc.
That said, this card should've been white all the way - which cares more about toughness and has rolling stones
Both these cards read to me as very clear - cards that were shoved in green to make green players happy and distracted from the fact we aren't giving green many good flyers.
You sorta can't win this argument. The weaker she appears, the more of a potential sleeper she is.
Why can't Magic have it's own unique visual style identity that does not involve tabby curvy digital lines? Lord knows they are dumping top dollar into the art for the cards. How about something more in line with the design of the back of the cards like a raggedy magical scroll.
Switcheroo: When this creature enters the battlefield you may pay X which is the difference in cost between this and another target creature's casting cost. If you do exchange control of these creatures. X can't be less than 0.
The real driving force here is the color pie. BG Zombies are only often available in sets with enemy color support. Fortunately with Theros, wizards seems to be moving in the right direction with random enemy color support where it makes sense from a flavor perspective. What they really need to do is have sets where enemy colored support is dominant not just equal. Only then will combos that really make sense like BG Zombies have adequate card support.
ps. Shards block unearth seems forced in blue and should've been a green ability: it's creature based and involves haste which is more green than blue. This would've given us more green zombies since that block had a few grixis ones.
pps. Thraximundar should be green instead of blue: +1 counters are more green than blue.
ppps. Innestrad should've been Vamps-BU Humans-UW Zombies-BG Werewoves-RG Spirits-WR Reasoning Vamps are way more U than Zombies. Humans are tricky/wizardy. Spirits are fickle chaotic.
If I have Derevi in play and attack with multiple creatures, they go unblocked and I get multiple triggered untaps, can I target the same permanent multiple times like Arcanis the omnipotent and use arcanis's tap ability in between each untap trigger? Or do I not have a chance to respond to each trigger.
I think you're too caught up in seeing these cards as creatures with a kicker like ability option. Which is obviously how the designers saw them and costed them.
I want to see them primarily as auras and I want to play more than boon satyr in constructed formats. I want to be able to play all of them in jank voltron edh decks. I won't though because there are so many better options: licids, griffin guide, equipment.
You state that if celestial archon were costed only 1 cheaper it would almost never be cast as creature. I wish it were never cast as a creature. We already have plenty of creatures in this game. We only have a handful of cards with bestow. Shouldn't I want to use this new exciting ability more often than not using it? Isn't the goal of having a new ability to be used?
Bestow is also not all upside. Putting all of your eggs on one creature makes it susceptible to tapping abilities and pacifism abilities.
Kitchen finks is more than just garuk's messenger + savannah lions. Its biggest function is that it gains you life, stopping aggro in it's tracks and also going infinite. This life gain is essentially given free. Also the mana cost of garuk's messenger and lions are all colored vs the hybrid mana cost of finks makes the finks much easier to cast and effectively cheaper.
More cards than not with persist have etb or sacrifice abilities tacked on that after the persist "creature" iterations are factored in, they abilities are essentially free see: murderous red cap puppeteer clique aerie ouphes
Why can't bestow it's ability give us a slight efficiency reduction that makes it at least somewhat ahead of the curve and desirable compared to these other abilities like persist, undying, flashback?
hahaha if we're casting bears with perfect hands how about four burning tree emmisaries for two mana. It takes one less card and two less mana than your proposed "broken play"
I'm totally fine with people 2 for 1ing themselves in order to cheat out slightly cheaper creatures. Don't forget the targets for failed bestow also cost mana so it makes it quite difficult to get a boon unless the bestow cost is far below actual cost. Even with cards like wild cantor you'd have to pay for your bestow costs before you get that one mana back from the cantor.