I love this deck idea and have been in the process for a couple weeks now putting my own together, it is coming out very different minus the deathtouch enablers which is just killer with the general. I am running as many tramplers as possible as well. I feel like the Lure effect isn't worth investing to much, maybe just my meta, but I see the value in it and am running a couple of pieces that force blocks.
I think the cards most worth running are cards that are resilient in their own way. This is mono green after all and in a control heavy meta things can get ugly. Here are a few pieces I am running for this reason...
To anyone that has been on the fence about including Ixidron, it has been nothing short of amazing in this deck.
I have taken out the maniac in condition as well as the knowledge pool win condition simply because I didn't find them fun to play. They have been replaced by Akroma's Memorial.
I worst case Primal Surge resolution will drop Ixidron as the last card which will result in my drawing a card from elvish visionary and losing. This is easily remedied by targeting venser or any of the other etb bounce effects to platinum angel and recasting (with flash from leyline). With all the mana available and replayable protections this deck offers I have not had any issue with this being interrupted. As a result, all my opponents creatures are vanilla 2/2s while all of mine are pumped by craterhoof behemoth and evasive haste with Akroma's Memorial.
Outside of surgeing Ixidron has won be too many games too count. For example, in a match I had last night, Ixidron was flicked with Conjurer's Closet to flip over Xenagos and his nasty flyers that etb. If things were getting scary across from me I could just flicker Ixidron again.
I really like the concept. I'm going to have to tinker with this a bit more. I've not played Apostles before, but it seems that 30-40 is the right number (35 seems to fit fine). Though I would like to have quite a few demons still in there to use. Mirror Entity being the funniest one. I don't know how well it would play in multiplayer. But I like that the deck/concept is a bit "quirky". With my current decks, I'd like to have something that is off the beaten path and not so .... well, douchey. This seems like it could be fun to play and play against.
I run a Sek'Kuar apostles deck and have found it is just far too fragile for anything outside of multiplayer. I run 35 apostles, which can be its greatest strength and its greatest curse. There are many games where I an simply relying on one path to victory and if it gets shut down then I am in trouble. While it doesn't look that threatening to the table, when it is just 1v1 I am the target of all my opponents spells. In a multiplayer setting apostles can just puts around looking like a joke until the moment it explodes into is awesomeness.
I like the idea of cards like no rest for the wicked in this version of apostles, because it makes it much more likely that your opponents are not going to pay the 18 life "well he is going to get them back into his hand anyways." Again with Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker they are given the same ultimatum, pretty nifty. Lifeline is another Shirei that was introduced to me and imo is better/replaced Shirei in my deck. In my apostles deck that does not run white, I sometimes wish I were just for the inclusion of Edgewalker. I found for running and capitilizing on a thrumming stone consistently without having to cast another apostle and try again 35 was perfect, hence why I settled on 35. That being said, without thrumming stone, I sometimes (although usually will) don't get to 6 as fast as I would like.
All being said, I would consider cutting all of the demons the above poster suggested, maybe even consider cutting bloodgift demon as well since the harvester takes care of card draw although somewhat situational.
Made a couple of slight changes to the deck and removed a few cards that were dead weight, like tooth and claw, ophiomancer, and army of the damned. Also added 3 more forests in place of a few BR dual lands that came in tapped and a rogue's passage since that's not really the main plan I'm going for currently. I might even shave 1 mountain and 1 swamp for another 2 forests since having green usually gives me the capability to find my other basics too. The consistency I've had lately is absurd and even more ramp in the form of 1-mana dorks has been amazing. It's gotten to the point where everyone is gunning for my head in a 4-5 player game of EDH and despite this deck's insane strength it is very challenging to win against 3-4 competent decks all trying to disrupt and to kill you ASAP. Is there any good way to deal with it?
Also, I noticed that neither of the primer lists run birthing pod and I have to urge you guys to play it. Assuming you have Rune-scarred demon in your deck it's absurdly powerful and lets you set up the combo on its own. No matter the number of players I don't think I've lost very many games at all after resolving birthing pod, there's just no stopping it. I played a 1v1 game earlier today against a friend of mine and even after my friend made me exile my entire hand and food chain with it, I just turned around, podded my demon into a craterhoof behemoth, and swung at him for about 60 points of damage. Assuming your deck is constructed in a way that's suitable to take advantage of birthing pod it's just not remotely fair.
Thanks for your tips Bighaben and your card ideas Fevorous, they've most certainly come in handy.
I can't help but think Archetype of Finality has to be a part of this list. Your list is very similiar to the list I run minus a few things. I don't run other sac outlets except for pod for the same reason you do. I rely on Prossh to be my primary sac outlet as to free up other card slots ie: I don't think goblin bombardment is the greatest card in this deck. That being said, we both run sharphooter, thoctar,Puphoros, you run the titan, giving those creatures deathtouch is just nasty! On top of that, a wall of deathtouch kobolds is nothing to scoff at and can buy you time while you look to assemble something. Being that Prossh is already soo good at creating all the tokens you should need to win, maybe consider cutting grave titan for it? I also have found avenger to be a nice pod target after sacing prossh. Anyways I would maybe reconsider the inclusion of soo many sac outlets and instead look for ways to profit with Prossh and altars being your primary sac outlet.
Wow I hadn't considered Falkenrath Aristrocrat in my build as a sac outlet, love it! Also I like the Conspiracy addition. I'm going to play test with it and see how useful of a card it is for me.
Have you considered cutting Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker? As with doubling Chant, I found that I just had other more useful 5 mana spells I'd rather be playing ie: Thrumming stone, and I ended up replacing Shirei with a black tutor. I'm not sold on Eater of Hope so I'd love to hear how that one ends up working for you. Mikeaus doesn't grant the apostles undying because they are human so that won't work.
Also intead of Shirei or Mikeaus, what about lifeline?
I've also been considering Havoc Demon I'm thinking -5/-5 may end up benefiting anyone with large creatures though putting me at a disadvantage. I like Savra as a general for that reason, she is a board wipe with the apostles. Sac 6 apostles, pay 12 life and wipe the board. The problem is read grants access to so many good sac outlets ie: goblin bombardment and aristocrat, as well as haste critters that can win (or at least knock out a couple opponents) on the spot.
I'm personally not sold on doubling chant yet. I've tried it hoping to get explosive turns from it and honestly for 6 mama it just wasnt all that exciting for me.
Here is the link to my decklist using Suk'Kuar . My thinking was it really is necessary to run as many apostles as possible. My aim was to have 35 apostles in the deck. The reason being really, the best thing this deck can do, is sac 6 apostles, grab Run-Scarred demon and from their a win condition. What I found is, with Sek'Kuar as a general, being that his creatures are haste, any time I can sac apostles to grab Rune Scarred demon I can have a win the next turn or turn after. This wasn't true for any other general that I tried. I think it is important that anything you run in the deck needs to be absolutely essential. No extra "fluff" if you know what I mean. There are a lot of powerful demons and a lot of powerful combinations of cards to go with the apostles, especially in white, but nothing works better for me then a thrumming stone or bloodbond march with a phyrexian arena in play and Sek'Kuar. Using black tutors you can get these pieces fairly easily, and even without phyrexian arena, or any other sac outlet for that matter, the apostles can sac themselves creating wins without an actual sac outlet.imo 26 apostles isn't enough if you want to be tutoring for Run Scarred often which is, imo, the best thing that the apostles can do.
I definitely got that. I don't know about your playgroup but I know in mine everyone packs grave hate. I think with a card like that you have to be careful, if you target yourself with it your opponent gets the bonus of removing a worthwhile graveyard and killing a big creature. If you target an opponent with it at least you buff from the creatures you've killed and spells they've cast, and opponents would have to decide kill your sewer nemesis or remove your graveyard. I think in mp bonehoard is just simply a better card. Playing out of the grave is scary business in mp edh and while I've seen great decks do well with it, they are careful to not play anything becomes immediately shut down once we remove their gy.
Champion of Stray Souls would be one of my first cuts. I would rather reanimate with a dread return any day over that card. Stray souls has to sit for a turn before it ever gets used. I= know in my playgroup an opponent would be likely to exile a gy or kill it before ever letting it go off.
And sewer nemesis just simply isn't a very good multiplayer card. I'd cut it for Bonehoard if that is the kind of creature you want.
I'm not sure if you have browsed the other lists on here, I posted a deck list recently, but I found Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper makes a great general for this deck. He allows an explosive turn where you sac a ton of tokens and reanimate them using bloodbond march and have a bunch of haste 3/1 creatures for the win. No need for any other pieces unlike other strategies I've seen.
In my Glissa deck I have found creature attrition to be my best means to setting up a win. Glissa on turn 3 with her first strike dt prevents my buddies xenagos deck or any other aggressors from hitting me too quickly, which gives me enough time to set up a solid removal set up to create Glissa triggers and devastate my opponents.
I've been achieving this by often times using Jarad's orders, Buried Alives, etc too put a 0 mana artifact creature in the gy. Lined up with a card like grave pact, or attrition, I can win by stalling the board until I can hit big with glissa or drain enough life with massacre wurm. I additionally play some cards to reanimte opponents graveyards, geth makes for a good creature to invest all that extra mana that gets made with ashnod's altar. Since I already have tons of free sac outlets, I run both melira, sylvok outcast and Mikeaus and pair them up with woodfall primus as well as puppeteer clique.
I don't really like the idea of running the 0 CMC artifact creatures since they are basically useless on their own. I think I'd prefer something like Bloodghast or Reassembling Skeleton for that type of Grave Pact and Attrition plan. They interact nicely with Skullclamp and don't rely on Glissa to come back from the graveyard. As far as those combos go, I like them better than Mike + Trike, but Melira still seems pretty bad outside of the combo.
I originally had the same thinking and through lots of testing with the attrition plan still settled on the 0 mana artifacts. I also use nether traitor and skeleton. I know outside of other pieces they are useless but so is bloodghast in a way. My plan has been either put them out early as blockers and get them set up in the grave for later when they will be used. If the grave gets removed, o well their are always other options but my graveyard shouldn't look all that intimidating compared to others in the game. Then the moment I drop an attrition things get ugly. Nether traitor is included because of his shadow, makes a nice alt. carrier of equips if I want to hold back glissa for blocking.
And as far as Melira goes, usually the way it has worked for me is I either hit Melira or one of the persist creatures. If I draw melira I can just tutor for the other. If I draw a woodfall, I will typically wait til I have the means to combo away with it, using an altar, then tutor for melira and go. Obviously you can't run very many bad on their own cards but I think in edh you can safely run a couple, Melira being one of mine just simply because puppeteer clique and Woodfall fit the attrition gameplan perfectly, especially with all the sac outlets.
Hmm I never actually considered Teysa has a general for this deck. I'll have to play with her for a bit and see what I think. White's support for clerics is a definite bonus. I still think for this deck to have any bit of consistency it needs to run more apostles. For a thrumming stone to really work consistently 35 has been the sweet number in all my testing. I'll post an update as I mess with Teysa for a bit and see what I come up with. Your brother and I basically have the same deck built in different colors, him using the extra cleric support that exists in white.
Lifeline is an awesome card!
I think what this deck needs to be careful not to do is run redundancy where it is not needed. Ie: imo there is no need for Grave Pact or any of the other token generators when Teysa achieves those things on her own. Instead, more apostles or necessary protection can be ran.
Also I noticed his deck is missing one of blacks greatest strengths which is its tutors. It could easily be running more apostles and less recursion for some black tutors.
Edit: So I watched the youtube video, and played the deck basically as is except I cut the worse recursion cards for black tutors and didn't include some of the token and grave pact redundancy and solitaire about 10 matches. I still feel like playing mass recursion is just really slow or too often unnecessary. The angel is way too much mana, and second sunrise and like are very situational. I found myself using them only when I already had an obviously dominant board state.
The cards that really make white tempting are Edgewalker, Teysa of course for her removal package, and most of all remembrance. With an phyrexian altar or edgewalker out remembrance was better than any Thrumming stone. I found I did not hit Akroma's Memorail consistently enough unless I was playing til I hit an crazy draw combo.
Teysa
Pros: 3 Mana, Creature removal, Flying evasive tokens, Access to Remembrance
Cons: Spirits don't have haste and can't win same turn without Akroma's Memorial
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
Pros: Access to Bloodbond March, Haste tokens with 3 power, can in with nothing but thrumming stone and apostles, more consistent turn 6-7 wins because less pieces are necessary.
Cons: 5 mana is sloooow, loses whites cleric support
I will keep testing and tweaking, but I am finding that Sek'Kuar is just way more consistent. Bloodbond march and necessary tutors eliminates the need for any other recursions, and it is much more effective then anything like patriarchs bidding, hence why I cut it for more tutors in my initial build.
Lifeline is an incredible card btw, especially with goblin bombardment and blasting station.
Glimpse of Nature >> Fecundity - I was not profiting enough from glimpse of nature. Fecundity has a lot more potential for some outrageous drawing in this deck. without producing extra, glimpse of nature just typically runs out of steam for me after 2 or 3 draws.
Patriarch's Bidding and Repopulate >> Eternal Witness and Nature's Spiral There hasn't been a single game where I wished to recur my clerics with either of these cards. I would rather have the ability to save a destroyed thrumming stone if necessary.
In my testing this deck has been clocking out with T7 wins very consistently. Using sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper was definitely the right move for this deck. Even though he eats up turn 5 and pushes the win back a turn, he has been very consistent for me and adds a lot more value to cards like blasting station or phyrexian Arena.
A couple of thoughts/suggestions.
Regal Force makes for some killer card draw.
Giant Adephage and Living Hive are both very fun cards and benefit from having deathtouch.
I think the cards most worth running are cards that are resilient in their own way. This is mono green after all and in a control heavy meta things can get ugly. Here are a few pieces I am running for this reason...
Gaea's Embrace, Colossus of Akros, Thornling, Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Darksteel Colossus
Also I know in my meta anti flying is important. In addition to the spider which is just nasty with DT
Gravity Well, Downdraft, Frog Tongue Frog Tongue acts as a cantrip
Any thought on running Kamahl, Fist of Krosa? Animate lands and destroy them with Worldeater.
Also some more card draw I think is important
Hunter's Insight
I'll post my own decklist soon.
EditL
To anyone that has been on the fence about including Ixidron, it has been nothing short of amazing in this deck.
I have taken out the maniac in condition as well as the knowledge pool win condition simply because I didn't find them fun to play. They have been replaced by Akroma's Memorial.
I worst case Primal Surge resolution will drop Ixidron as the last card which will result in my drawing a card from elvish visionary and losing. This is easily remedied by targeting venser or any of the other etb bounce effects to platinum angel and recasting (with flash from leyline). With all the mana available and replayable protections this deck offers I have not had any issue with this being interrupted. As a result, all my opponents creatures are vanilla 2/2s while all of mine are pumped by craterhoof behemoth and evasive haste with Akroma's Memorial.
Outside of surgeing Ixidron has won be too many games too count. For example, in a match I had last night, Ixidron was flicked with Conjurer's Closet to flip over Xenagos and his nasty flyers that etb. If things were getting scary across from me I could just flicker Ixidron again.
I run a Sek'Kuar apostles deck and have found it is just far too fragile for anything outside of multiplayer. I run 35 apostles, which can be its greatest strength and its greatest curse. There are many games where I an simply relying on one path to victory and if it gets shut down then I am in trouble. While it doesn't look that threatening to the table, when it is just 1v1 I am the target of all my opponents spells. In a multiplayer setting apostles can just puts around looking like a joke until the moment it explodes into is awesomeness.
All being said, I would consider cutting all of the demons the above poster suggested, maybe even consider cutting bloodgift demon as well since the harvester takes care of card draw although somewhat situational.
I can't help but think Archetype of Finality has to be a part of this list. Your list is very similiar to the list I run minus a few things. I don't run other sac outlets except for pod for the same reason you do. I rely on Prossh to be my primary sac outlet as to free up other card slots ie: I don't think goblin bombardment is the greatest card in this deck. That being said, we both run sharphooter, thoctar,Puphoros, you run the titan, giving those creatures deathtouch is just nasty! On top of that, a wall of deathtouch kobolds is nothing to scoff at and can buy you time while you look to assemble something. Being that Prossh is already soo good at creating all the tokens you should need to win, maybe consider cutting grave titan for it? I also have found avenger to be a nice pod target after sacing prossh. Anyways I would maybe reconsider the inclusion of soo many sac outlets and instead look for ways to profit with Prossh and altars being your primary sac outlet.
Have you considered cutting Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker? As with doubling Chant, I found that I just had other more useful 5 mana spells I'd rather be playing ie: Thrumming stone, and I ended up replacing Shirei with a black tutor. I'm not sold on Eater of Hope so I'd love to hear how that one ends up working for you. Mikeaus doesn't grant the apostles undying because they are human so that won't work.
Also intead of Shirei or Mikeaus, what about lifeline?
I've also been considering Havoc Demon I'm thinking -5/-5 may end up benefiting anyone with large creatures though putting me at a disadvantage. I like Savra as a general for that reason, she is a board wipe with the apostles. Sac 6 apostles, pay 12 life and wipe the board. The problem is read grants access to so many good sac outlets ie: goblin bombardment and aristocrat, as well as haste critters that can win (or at least knock out a couple opponents) on the spot.
And sewer nemesis just simply isn't a very good multiplayer card. I'd cut it for Bonehoard if that is the kind of creature you want.
I originally had the same thinking and through lots of testing with the attrition plan still settled on the 0 mana artifacts. I also use nether traitor and skeleton. I know outside of other pieces they are useless but so is bloodghast in a way. My plan has been either put them out early as blockers and get them set up in the grave for later when they will be used. If the grave gets removed, o well their are always other options but my graveyard shouldn't look all that intimidating compared to others in the game. Then the moment I drop an attrition things get ugly. Nether traitor is included because of his shadow, makes a nice alt. carrier of equips if I want to hold back glissa for blocking.
And as far as Melira goes, usually the way it has worked for me is I either hit Melira or one of the persist creatures. If I draw melira I can just tutor for the other. If I draw a woodfall, I will typically wait til I have the means to combo away with it, using an altar, then tutor for melira and go. Obviously you can't run very many bad on their own cards but I think in edh you can safely run a couple, Melira being one of mine just simply because puppeteer clique and Woodfall fit the attrition gameplan perfectly, especially with all the sac outlets.
Lifeline is an awesome card!
I think what this deck needs to be careful not to do is run redundancy where it is not needed. Ie: imo there is no need for Grave Pact or any of the other token generators when Teysa achieves those things on her own. Instead, more apostles or necessary protection can be ran.
Also I noticed his deck is missing one of blacks greatest strengths which is its tutors. It could easily be running more apostles and less recursion for some black tutors.
Edit: So I watched the youtube video, and played the deck basically as is except I cut the worse recursion cards for black tutors and didn't include some of the token and grave pact redundancy and solitaire about 10 matches. I still feel like playing mass recursion is just really slow or too often unnecessary. The angel is way too much mana, and second sunrise and like are very situational. I found myself using them only when I already had an obviously dominant board state.
The cards that really make white tempting are Edgewalker, Teysa of course for her removal package, and most of all remembrance. With an phyrexian altar or edgewalker out remembrance was better than any Thrumming stone. I found I did not hit Akroma's Memorail consistently enough unless I was playing til I hit an crazy draw combo.
Teysa
Pros: 3 Mana, Creature removal, Flying evasive tokens, Access to Remembrance
Cons: Spirits don't have haste and can't win same turn without Akroma's Memorial
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
Pros: Access to Bloodbond March, Haste tokens with 3 power, can in with nothing but thrumming stone and apostles, more consistent turn 6-7 wins because less pieces are necessary.
Cons: 5 mana is sloooow, loses whites cleric support
I will keep testing and tweaking, but I am finding that Sek'Kuar is just way more consistent. Bloodbond march and necessary tutors eliminates the need for any other recursions, and it is much more effective then anything like patriarchs bidding, hence why I cut it for more tutors in my initial build.
Lifeline is an incredible card btw, especially with goblin bombardment and blasting station.
Glimpse of Nature >> Fecundity - I was not profiting enough from glimpse of nature. Fecundity has a lot more potential for some outrageous drawing in this deck. without producing extra, glimpse of nature just typically runs out of steam for me after 2 or 3 draws.
Patriarch's Bidding and Repopulate >> Eternal Witness and Nature's Spiral There hasn't been a single game where I wished to recur my clerics with either of these cards. I would rather have the ability to save a destroyed thrumming stone if necessary.
In my testing this deck has been clocking out with T7 wins very consistently. Using sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper was definitely the right move for this deck. Even though he eats up turn 5 and pushes the win back a turn, he has been very consistent for me and adds a lot more value to cards like blasting station or phyrexian Arena.