When Thalia's Lieutenant enters, you have 2 triggers from Crusade and 2 from Lieutenant. When the first Crusade trigger resolves, to put 1 counter on each creature, it will change to 2 from the first Hardened Scales and then to 3 from the second. So, each creature will get 6 counters total from the 2 Crusade triggers.
Then, the Lieutenant triggers work the same way. Each human with get 3 counters from each trigger. At the end, every Human creature (other than Lieutenant) will get 12 counters. Each Lieutenant will get 9 counters (6 from Crusade and 3 from the other Lieutenant).
So, you will end up with a 13/14 inspector and 2 10/10 Lieutenants.
You forgot the lieutenants second ability (whenever another human enters the battlefield under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on thalia's lieutenant) So since each lieutenant sees the other one enter the battlefield they each get another counter which change to 3 with the hardened scales. So each lieutenant would be a 13/13
This is all extremely helpful. I feel that I'm finally getting a sense of how phasing cards actually work.
It sounds like the biggest practical/functional differences between "gaining phasing" and "phasing out" are that the timing of "phasing out" (as controlled by global enchantments and abilities) depends heavily on the specific instructions of the specific enchantment and creature card, and the ongoing phasing in/out only happens as long as the enchantment/creature cards are in play. Apart from that, "phasing out" is actually quite similar to "gaining phasing" for enchantments and the abilities of creature cards-- in that the cards that are getting phased do continue phasing in and out and in and out ongoingly until the controlling cards are destroyed or exiled.
Phasing instants (like Reality Ripple) would seem to be the cards that are distinctly different, in functional terms. If I understand correctly, an instant like Reality Ripple would cause permanents to phase out just once, and then they would phase in permanently on the controller's next untap step. That's very different from cards that "have phasing" and cards whose phasing is controlled by a global enchantment or the abilities of a creature card-- where the phasing continues ongoingly.
Not quite, "phase out" only happens once but all of the cards mentioned in this thread phase out things multiple times, but in general that isn't the case. For example if a creature is blocked by dream warrior it doesn't gain phasing, so it stays phased in after being phased out unless it blocks dream warrior again.
World of Fire4R
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep put 2 3/1 red elemental tokens with haste onto the battlefield.
At the beginning of your endstep deal 1 damage to each creature.
The difference between phase out and gains phasing is that "gain phasing" means that the permanent phases out during each of your untap steps (if it didn't phase in) gaining phasing is permanent, while something that phases out will phase in during the next untap step of its controller. Also if something phases out that happens immediately, while something gaining phasing will phase out during the untap phase. So if you shimmer a land, it won't phase out until the opponents untap, but if you reality ripple it during their upkeep for example it will phase out during the upkeep, because that is what reality ripple does.
In the case of shimmer the permanent will have phasing as long as shimmer is on the battlefield, and will stay phased in the next time it phases in, mainly since shimmer is an enchantment so it only affects the enchanted permanent while it is on the battlefield (like flight where the creature doesn't have flying if you remove the enchantment, the same principle applies).
As for Reality Ripple it doesn't give the permanent phasing because that is not what the card says, the permanent will phase back in and stay back in because of the following rule:
502.1. First, all phased-in permanents with phasing that the active player controls phase out, and all phased-out permanents that the active player controlled when they phased out phase in. This all happens simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. See rule 702.25, “Phasing.”
Bolded by me for emphasis, in particular phased out permanents don't have to have phasing to phase back in.
The discussion rounded off with heading away from NWO being a problem so much as the way they designed the card space. Technically, they still have strong spells in the game, it's just that these spells tend to be planeswalkers or enchantments and tend to be too slow to deal with all of the early aggressive creatures that have appeared as of late. Maybe it's just unexplored territory, or defensive decks aren't super popular, or the defensive options early game just aren't strong enough to cut down aggro to begin with.
Off the top of my head, Wall of Omens, Wall of Blossoms, Wall of Essence, and (reserve list, thanks WoTC) Wall of Souls, are a few of the only playable walls I can think of for early game. On a related note, I forgot what game it was but there is/was a card game that had a similar creature type to walls and basically the board sweeps it had ignored walls, so you could play these kinds of early drops without worrying about synergy issues in a late game strategy. This also allowed the later threats to not have to be so maddeningly game ending like what Emrakul, the Promised End, Karn Liberated, and Ugin, the Spirit dragon ended up being. In magic, you basically are tossing a "Hail Mary" to play these cards via ramp like in tron, or Aetherworks Marvel in standard and frontier, so it puts all the value of whatever deck is being built into that one card. If someone plays a fair card like Akroma, Angel of Fury, it just doesn't have enough power to make it worth the cost because the rest of the cards needed to get it out in time are just worthless junk on their own.
I don't see the big difference between "defensive decks" and control decks. I understand that in your defensive decks walls are used as blockers, but in control decks removal and sweepers serve the same purpose, and they can play large late game bombs without playing ramp. What makes control decks so different from defensive decks?
I thought the conclusion of the thread is that the mythic rarity and that the shift towards weak spells, and stronger creatures is bad for mtg, but that this is not the NWO just different changes implemented around the same time.
"116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player’s mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
116.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends."
these rules may help, if official rules will help in this situation.
Master Of Bows2GG
Creature-Archer
Reach T: deal 1 damage to target creature with flying.
Other archers you control gain +1/+1, reach and "T: deal 1 damage to target creature with flying".
2/2
In general, each action verb on a spell or ability's effect indicates one action (under C.R. 608.2c, you "apply the rules of English to the text" of a spell or ability when carrying out its instructions). And although Lantern of Insight's reveal effect applies "at all times" it's on the battlefield (C.R. 611.3b), nothing in the game, in general, can observe what happens in between a simultaneous action.
I am not disagree with anything said here, but I want to note a common exception to the rule:
when an effect says draw 2 cards, it means draw a card, then draw a card, so you will see both cards drawn (Same goes for any other number greater than 2).
So in the first extra combat, the creatures don't have any requirement or restriction for attacking. The player may choose to just attack you again, and the creatures will be tapped on the second extra combat and so unable to attack other players.
Can you explain that a little better? Because it seems incorrect.
"They can't attack you or a planeswalker you control that combat."
So the second one resolves and makes a combat phase. The combat phase it made cannot be used to attack you or a planeswalker you control.
I'm not sure why the second Gambit would invalidate that part of the rule on the card.
The key word here is those creatures, as in the creatures removed by the gambit, can't attack you or a planeswalker you control. Since the first gambit removes all attacking creatures from combat there are no creatures for the second one to remove, so no creatures will have a restriction in the second combat step.
The restriction is on the creatures not the combat step, since no creatures are affected by the second gambit, there are no restrictions.
Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a instant, sorcery or artifact card from it.
You may cast a copy of that card and may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.
If you cast a copy of an artifact card this way, put a token onto the battlefield as a copy of the chosen card when that spell resolves.
Making it a single action using Chandra, Torch of Defiance tech
Just pointing out that there is a difference between the original wording and the new one. With the new wording one can only cast the spell when your spell is resolving, so you couldn't use it with cards that say "cast only during the beginning of combat" for example. Just making sure you know what you are giving up with the wording
You forgot the lieutenants second ability (whenever another human enters the battlefield under your control, put a +1/+1 counter on thalia's lieutenant) So since each lieutenant sees the other one enter the battlefield they each get another counter which change to 3 with the hardened scales. So each lieutenant would be a 13/13
Not quite, "phase out" only happens once but all of the cards mentioned in this thread phase out things multiple times, but in general that isn't the case. For example if a creature is blocked by dream warrior it doesn't gain phasing, so it stays phased in after being phased out unless it blocks dream warrior again.
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep put 2 3/1 red elemental tokens with haste onto the battlefield.
At the beginning of your endstep deal 1 damage to each creature.
In the case of shimmer the permanent will have phasing as long as shimmer is on the battlefield, and will stay phased in the next time it phases in, mainly since shimmer is an enchantment so it only affects the enchanted permanent while it is on the battlefield (like flight where the creature doesn't have flying if you remove the enchantment, the same principle applies).
As for Reality Ripple it doesn't give the permanent phasing because that is not what the card says, the permanent will phase back in and stay back in because of the following rule:
502.1. First, all phased-in permanents with phasing that the active player controls phase out, and all phased-out permanents that the active player controlled when they phased out phase in. This all happens simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. See rule 702.25, “Phasing.”
Bolded by me for emphasis, in particular phased out permanents don't have to have phasing to phase back in.
I don't see the big difference between "defensive decks" and control decks. I understand that in your defensive decks walls are used as blockers, but in control decks removal and sweepers serve the same purpose, and they can play large late game bombs without playing ramp. What makes control decks so different from defensive decks?
I thought the conclusion of the thread is that the mythic rarity and that the shift towards weak spells, and stronger creatures is bad for mtg, but that this is not the NWO just different changes implemented around the same time.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player’s mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
116.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends."
these rules may help, if official rules will help in this situation.
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant non-Zombie creature card
Instant
Return target spell you control to its owners hand, then untap X lands where X is that spells converted mana cost.
Draw a card.
Creature-Archer
Reach
T: deal 1 damage to target creature with flying.
Other archers you control gain +1/+1, reach and "T: deal 1 damage to target creature with flying".
2/2
Enchantment
I am not disagree with anything said here, but I want to note a common exception to the rule:
when an effect says draw 2 cards, it means draw a card, then draw a card, so you will see both cards drawn (Same goes for any other number greater than 2).
The key word here is those creatures, as in the creatures removed by the gambit, can't attack you or a planeswalker you control. Since the first gambit removes all attacking creatures from combat there are no creatures for the second one to remove, so no creatures will have a restriction in the second combat step.
The restriction is on the creatures not the combat step, since no creatures are affected by the second gambit, there are no restrictions.
Just pointing out that there is a difference between the original wording and the new one. With the new wording one can only cast the spell when your spell is resolving, so you couldn't use it with cards that say "cast only during the beginning of combat" for example. Just making sure you know what you are giving up with the wording