Went 3-1 with Esper Control in the Daily Event today online.
Played the same list as on the bottom of page 19.
Round 1 vs. slideman w/jund.
Game one. He hit three lightning bolts off of cascades, and the third one finished me after I'd locked up the board.
Sideboading: +3 Celestial Purge, +3 Flash Freeze, +1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle, +3 Kiss of the Amesha, -4 Cancel, -3 Smother, -1 Day of Judgment, -1 Liliana Vess, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Game two. A t4 Ruinblaster kept me off of Jwar Isle mana long enough for him to attack into the sphinx long enough to get me into bolt range.
Games: 0-2, Matches: 0-1
Round two, vs. Travka with Valakut Ramp.
Game one I hit him with an eot esper charm followed by a main phase esper charm to wipe out his hand. Got a sphinx out, then locked the game up with a third charm during his draw step to buy the extra turn I needed. Won with three Valakuts on the board.
Game two he had double ruinblasters to keep me off of four mana and was able to beat me down with the little haste guys and a bloodbraid to 7 before i finally hit four mana and dropped an Elspeth. I cleaned up the board, but a siege gang with mana to activate it took me out.
Game three I countered an early rampant growth, which really messed up his tempo, giving me time to get a counter going on ruinblaster, which was probably the turning point of the match since I followed that up with liliana. Vess + an Esper Charm took care of his hand and Jace came down to lock up his draws until I stuck a sphinx to beat for the win.
Matches: 1-1, Games: 2-3
Round 3 vs. Raggi_Litli with u/w/b open the vaults control.
Game one he tried to run out a lost truths on t5, but I had a cancel ready and followed up with liliana on my own turn 5. He had another sphinx on turn six, but liliana and an Esper Charm put him on zero cards in hand. I pathed his sphinx, wrathed another one, then finished with liliana's ultimate for the win.
Game two I dropped an early scepter of fugue and went to town with it while i used the three tectonic edges i drew to keep him on 3 mana while I worked to empty his hand. He conceded once I hit enough lands to start attacking with tar pits.
Matches 2-1, Games 4-3
Round Four vs. dolly_d84 with Jund
Game one he fired off three blightnings, which were enough to effectively end the game.
Game two a t3 counter and t4 Elspeth set me up for a strong start, but a pair of ruinblasters kept him in the game. I used a pair of charms to empty his hand while I tried to find lands to rebuild my manabase. A treasure hunt flipped a few cards over, and Day of Judgment held off his comeback attempt of a Stag and Broodmate.
Game three I held off a ruinblaster with flashfreeze while he beat with a stag. Purge took care of an errant raging ravine while Charm again emptied his hand. The stag had me beaten down to five at this point, but a kiss of the amesha helped stabilize. I countered a blightning at 2 life and used edge to beat down his manabase. A sphinx started the beats and helped ponder, marsh flats, and treasure hunt to be more effective with my draws. Eventually I won the game at one life.
Final record Matches: 3-1, Games 6-4.
My main takeaways from this were that Esper Charm should mostly be used as discard against Jund, and I don't want more than two Smothers maindeck. Will look at filling the empty slot with an Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, or a Martial Coup.
The other main lesson was that Ponder/Hunt/Depths is an AMAZING draw engine. Really helps to keep you hand full, lots of lands coming while preventing flood. In some ways it's even better than Ponder/Brainstorm as a draw/search engine.
I'd also really, really like some kind of lifegain spell/effect that costs less than six mana to replace Kiss. If Reviving Dose or Renewed Faith were legal right now I'd be all over that action.
As always thoughts criticisms and critiques are welcome.
congrats. I like what you're doing with your lists, looks like ours are heading in the same direction. I tried Calcite Snapper and found him lacking as well. He's an amazing critter, but right now, there're so many things of lesser value that just either trade with or chump block him that I don't think you can get anything approaching full value out of him.
I'm now running an Elspeth and she's great. Honestly, it almost seems like Jace is my worst 'walker sometimes. I'm very happy with the one-of walker variety pack.
I've made done some heavy remodeling on my list because playing online I just couldn't seem to get my Jund matchup over 50% with the old version, and its just way too common in the q's to leave it to a coinflip.
So I cut Spreading Seas and revamped the draw package while adding a pair of Jwar Jwar's to the maindeck, mostly because its essentially an unsolvable creature for Jund.
The biggest thing is probably the mix of Ponder/Treasure Hunt as the primary draw engine. It's actually worked out very well for me, helping to find whatever cards I need exactly when i need them while keeping my land drops going.
I'd like to add a pair of O-rings to my list or board to help deal with walkers, though I'm unsure if pithing needle wouldn't be a better option out of the board since it also hits manlands. Mind Control is another card I'd like to have some of in my 75, mostly because right now there's a lot of critters worth stealing. I'm also still working out what anti-red/quick aggro hate I want in the board. Kiss of the Amesha is just amazing if you live to six mana - but thats the problem, living to six mana. Perimeter Captain helps you get there, but I end up wrathing him alot, or he just eats a terminate or gatekeeper or something else that would otherwise be dead (Searing Blaze, for example). Kor Firewalker is awesome, but hard to get down early with my manabase, which negates a lot of his value.
This might be a dumb question, but has anyone tried boarding Nissa Revane and 4x Nissa's Chosen vs. Vamps? your 2/3 beats their 2/1 in that scenario, and both recur, plus nissa's lifegain can kick you up out of drain effect range. At the very least she's a creature and a fog vs. them I'd think. Could be wrong, but it seems worth at least trying once.
I tried Treasure Hunt, really didn't like it in this deck, was far too inconsistent for my tastes. I also tried out Jace tMS and I have to say I'm a fan. I also think I'd like to give Elspeth a shot. I ended up making the following changes:
+3 Marsh Flats
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+4 Cancel
+1 Mind Control
+1 Kiss of the Amesha
The Kiss and Mind Control are both experimental slots, and may end up getting changed into Jwar Jwars. If I make that change, I will strongly consider pulling the seas for turtles.
Thanks for the input, advice is always appreciated.
I'd absolutely love it if I could figure out a way to just touch Red mana so I could replace the Seer's Sundials with Ajani Vengeant's, but I don't think I can do so and still maintain a really stable manabase like i have.
Sundial draws an absolute TON of cards in a land heavy deck like this, and it doesn't die nearly as easily as 'walkers do, although it is also much less flexible.
I'm not married to Punish Ignorance, but the deck is hurting on lifegain, and that's one way to get it.
I've looked at Elspeth, but I don't think she really works that well in this particular deck. Mostly it seems like she'd draw attention to herself and turn my opponents' removal back on before I could make them discard it with vess/scepter.
If I did start running creatures in here, it would definitely be the Sphinx/Calcite shroud package, which I'm a big fan of. I just think that right now, with the manlands available and the large amount of removal being run in most decks, you're better off devoting those slots to more control elements. Though I could be wrong.
I'm open to suggestions on alterations - especially Punish Ignorance and Seer's Sundial - they're not bad, but they never stand out as being all stars either. Thanks.
Well, like the title says, this thread is for the development of the "lands" deck in Zendikar block format. This list is still very raw, but has been about an even split with vamps so far in testing, which by itself is probably enough to make further investigation worthwhile.
The sideboard is still very, very much under construction. Slingbow is good for vamps, and Ascension for control, beyond that, it's mostly filler. Although Roil Elemental has been really good against vamps since they're forced to burn all their removal on Gladeharts, Oracles, Angels, and Ghosts if they even want to have a chance to stay in the game.
Also, it may not look like it, but this deck draws a TON of cards. Most turns you'll draw/play 3-4 cards total, and if you've got a sundial out, the numbers get higher quickly. I have not yet tried out Admonition Angel or Rampaging Baloths, so I can't say whether or not they're better than what's already in here at the high cc landfall slots.
Ruin Ghost is really, really great here. He's a mix of Sensei's Divining Top, Mother of Runes, Kher Keep, and Gladehart, except that he also gives you a landfall trigger in addition to those other bonuses.
Expedition Map is nice for making sure you get the special land you need when you need it, and this deck doesn't tend to have mana problems.
I'm sure this isn't the ideal build, and maybe it's not even the right mix of colors (there's some pretty solid landfall in Black as well), but as an archetype, this definitely has some potential. Anyone interested in helping to move the decks' development forward is strongly encouraged to post their ideas here. Thanks.
I'm still working out what the board needs/should be. The deck doesn't do anything fancy, it just fills up the board with huge dudes, then overruns via garruk or monument if pure beats don't go all the way.
Adam W.,
I'd lean more towards white or red as your splash color. they both provide manlands in addition to removal options.
"Magus of the Moat looks like the jankiest thing ever, but it just ends the game vs. AIR"
just wanted to point out that it doesnt work very well against demigod of revenge
also, with the creature heavy list, ancient ziggurat could be worth looking into
fixed the relevant passage. I've looked at Ziggurat, but it just doesn't really seem necessary. The mana for this deck isn't hard to manage with only three colors and 8 mana critters. (five birds/nobles, three wood elves)
Titus, the 3/2 split on hierarch birds is due to evasiveness for equipment carrying. t1 birds, t2 sword, t3 attack is much more likely to connect than t1 noble, t2 swords, t3 attack. lategame birds are better equipment bearers while hierarchs are better pseudo-equipments themselves.
Yosei is sort of working out, it just seems like he could be better. I'll probably try 'lark at some point, but i'm not overly optimistic about it.
Magus of the Moat looks like the jankiest thing ever, but it just ends the game vs. AIR* and Elf combo. Neither deck has anything approaching an answer to it. Also very strong vs. Dredge, although they do have answers to it via Dread Return.
*EDIT: AIR has a potential "out" to Magus in Demigod of Revenge. However, you have lots of flyers, draw, Meddling Mage, Glare, and Pro: Red swords to stop Demigod. So yes, AIR can theoretically kill you with one of four cards in their deck after Magus resolves, but it is highly unlikely. The same situation applies to Arc-Slogger.
The deck has been doing well, but there are some slots that seem like they could be improved. The two 'walkers - Ajani and Garruk can either be incredible or useless. Yosei also varies in usefulness, sometimes locking people down and othertimes being just kind of "not enough". Considering replacing him with Baneslayer. Interested in hearing others' thoughts on that.
Older versions of the deck attempted to abuse a Greater Good/Yosei/Emeria lock, but it was hard getting enough plains in play to make it relevant in time to matter. Also, that's a pretty slow combo. Miren, the Moaning Well is another card that's occasionally been good, but likely needs to go. A second Ghost Quarter would probably make a nice replacement for it.
Vitu-Ghazi, while awesome theoretically, has been rather lackluster in playing. Quite simply, the deck usually has lots of stuff to do with its mana besides spend five to make a 1/1. Windbrisk Heights is a card I've been wondering about in this deck for awhile now. It may be time to test it out, though I am concerned about running too many cipt lands.
The deck also used to run a few Wargates, and they performed a similar function to Chord of Calling in the old GhaziGlare decks. I ended up dropping them mainly because the deck seemed to run fine without them, although a few one-ofs in weird places are still around as a result of their previous inclusion. Selesnya Guildmage was included for a time, but it quickly became apparent that its time had passed.
Stoneforge Mystic is a card I'm interested in trying out. If I do, I'll probably change the swords up from 2x SoFI to a 1/1 sofi/sols split, and may add a singleton jitte as well.
Arashi does look weird as heck, but he's amazing vs. Faeries and does well vs. thopter tokens and other randomness.
Also considering replacing Wood Elves with either Farhaven Elf or Yavimaya Dryad. Farhaven can't get duals, and Yavimaya's CC may occasionally be a problem.
I've also looked at Momentary Blink and Reveillark in this deck, but they don't feel quite right to me.
A very light black splash for some portion of Doran/Makeshift Mannequin/Smother/Cranial/Persecute/Duress/Bitterblossom is tempting, but feels like it would be pushing the mana a step too far. Maybe Murmuring Bosk and Verdant Catacombs make it workable, but I have my doubts.
Tarmogoyf is absent because he generally doesn't get big in this deck. There are exactly three spells in the deck that aren't permanents - the Primal Commands. If your opponent isn't playing a deck designed to take advantage of Tarmogoyf, he'll never really get bigger than 2/3 or 3/4 in this deck, and that only later on in the game.
Saffi Eriksdotter, Spreading Seas, Shining Shoal and Adarkar Valkyrie are other random cards under consideration right now that didn't really fit into any of the above paragraphs.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts and feedback on this from others.
The basic idea is to kick out a LOT of lands fast, then back them up with utility creatures and planeswalkers. Avenger of Zendikar makes for a brutal finishing army that instantly stops all ground attacks. With the included package of toolbox lands Ruin Ghost can impersonate Mother of Runes, Sensei's Divining Top, Selesnya Evangel, Tormod's Crypt, and Fountain of Youth. Plus he saves your manlands from removal until you can Wargate out Terra Eternal.
Jace is amazing with all the shuffle effects, and his unsummons can be pretty useful holding off aggro as well. Redjani does what Redjani does, which is great for this deck.
The deck runs 28 total lands and 16 cards that put extra lands into play (Oracle, Wargate, Rampant, Explore). Ideally you should always be kicking out a 1G spell on t2, although this won't always happen.
While this deck does have a lot going for it, there are some cautionary notes that should be sounded.
1) The inherent strategy of this deck is very strong against countermagic and control and midrange strategies, while being somewhat weak against fast aggro.
1b) Fast aggro makes up a significant portion of the meta right now.
2) No non-walker removal probably = fail on some level.
3) Tectonic Edge got printed.
4) No Chandra Nalaar, Garruk Wildspeaker, or Elspeth, Knight Errant. Those three cards all do things this deck wants. Especially the two girls.
5) No Baneslayer or Admonition angels.
Of course, there are some upsides too.
1) T4 Avengers of Zendikar.
2) Better card draw/advantage than almost anything else in the format.
3) Terra Eternal got printed.
4) Lots and lots of things that say "I win" if you untap with them in play.
5) Never lose a game to mana screw.
Thoughts, critiques, suggestions? This isn't the final version by a long shot, and I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on this.
I've been looking at all the cards coming in previews from WWK, and while we're just a bit over the halfway mark on spoiled cards, enough of a specific kind of card have been spoiled that it's possible to make at least an early draft of this type of deck. The concept is pretty basic, use the multitude of special lands in ZEN/WWK to make up the bulk of the deck with some support from cards that specifically benefit from lands.
Obviously, that's a very rough draft and there are several important questions to answer. The sideboard is generally stuff I wanted maindeck but couldn't find room for.
The basic plan is to create massive card and mana advantage with the draw and ramp effects, while use Vastwood and Baloths/Avenger to create huge token swams, with a back up plan of Banefire (should be Comet Storm?) to the face and Wargate/Ruin Ghost acting as a powerful toolbox and repeatable effects bag. (in addition to landfall triggers and making manlands immortal, Ghost can impersonate Mother of Runes, Sensei's Divining Top, Fountain of Youth,Tormod's Crypt, and Kher Keep.)
However, there are still a few question to answer with this deck, namely:
1) With 20 etbt lands and 8 lands that come in untapped, is the deck too slow in the early turns?
2) Does the lack of removal cripple the deck?
3) Does the complete lack of a mainboard plan against flyers cripple the deck?
4) Is 28 lands enough? Should some spells be cut for more lands?
5) Are only 8 dual lands enough to support this decks' early mana development?
6) Is Grazing Gladeheart the right choice for lifegain? Should more lifegain lands or Captured Sunlight be run instead?
7) Should some sort of recursion be run in this deck alongside more basics and fetchlands (Grim Discovery type effects)?
8) Is Rampant Growth necessary with Explore and Wargate already present?
9) Are 8 manlands enough? Should more be run? If so, which ones?
I think that covers most of it. Pretty curious to see others' reax to this and thoughts on improving it. Definitely seems like it could have a lot of potential in standard, though again, my main concerns are the decks early game survivability vs. stuff like Bushwacker.
This is something that started out as a casual deck that grew into competitive. It's sort of a combo deck, but also sort of a recursive creatureless midrange deck too. Also kind of a burn deck. But mostly it's a Pyromancer's Ascension deck. The current list:
The deck wins by setting up recursive loops with ascended Reborn Hopes and Naya Charms returning multiple cards from gy to hand and burning people out while simultaneously emptying their hands with blightning. Burn, charm fogs, and lifegain keep you around long enough to pull this off.
Blitz Hellion is in the board in large part to help deal with Mill decks, and some control/combo variants, which otherwise kill you with Telemin Performance and counterspells.
Luminarch Ascension is for other control decks, Jund Charm for crypt decks and additional aggro hate, and 'clasm for fast aggro.
Cascade is really amazing in this deck. It helps to get the triggers on Pyromancer built up, then once it's active, the ascension will fire off copies of both the spell AND it's cascade copy. This means you get four spells for one. That's incredibly swingy. Insanely incredibly swingy. A sequence might go like this:
Captured Sunlight => Naya Charm, Gain 8 life, return Lightning Bolt and Blightning to hand, cast Bolt, kill two dudes. Net result, 5 mana, +8 life, -2 enemy dudes, -0 cards in hand.
The deck is a bit reliant on the Ascension, but I'm not really sure how to fix that without destroying its effectiveness. I really, really, really haven't missed Time Warp in this deck. The extra turns were just win more, and if you topdecked one, it just read: topdeck again. Whereas the recursive spells when topdecked read: fix whatevers wrong with the gamestate. Also, recurisve spells make it really easy to get counters on ascension. Two reborn hopes + WWGG = 2 counters on ascension.
Cascade has also proven a much more effective source of card advantage than the blue draw spells ever were. I have not tried Deny Reality in this deck yet, but its probably worth looking at at some point. The main thing I expect WWK to add to this deck is man land duals as a backup win condition. Which would be like amazing, because it would address this decks single biggest weakness.
Just finished watching the two parter on hulu. Damn that was some good stuff. The shows shown since this was cancelled have been amazing. Also nice to see the season one "investigate the purpose of the dollhouses" line finally get paid off.
So it's an evil corporation intent on taking over the world... and they actually have a realistic, viable plan to do so. DeWitt finished her bout of morality and went totally back to evil, except moreso. Nice. Reminiscent of Lindsey the lawyer from Angel in season 1.
Huge fan of alpha's "zombie plan". Was also nice to see the handlers generally holding their own. These guys were all recruited for being badass mofos, so its nice to see them not just wuss out.
combined with last weeks two episodes the shows heading for a strong finish it seems.. if there was time to write and shoot one before the axe. This is a tough show in a lot of ways, and frankly it probably would have worked a LOT better as a graphic novel or comic book series, but still, gotta salute the ambition in trying to pull this off as a weekly tv series.
Played the same list as on the bottom of page 19.
Round 1 vs. slideman w/jund.
Game one. He hit three lightning bolts off of cascades, and the third one finished me after I'd locked up the board.
Sideboading: +3 Celestial Purge, +3 Flash Freeze, +1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle, +3 Kiss of the Amesha, -4 Cancel, -3 Smother, -1 Day of Judgment, -1 Liliana Vess, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Game two. A t4 Ruinblaster kept me off of Jwar Isle mana long enough for him to attack into the sphinx long enough to get me into bolt range.
Games: 0-2, Matches: 0-1
Round two, vs. Travka with Valakut Ramp.
Game one I hit him with an eot esper charm followed by a main phase esper charm to wipe out his hand. Got a sphinx out, then locked the game up with a third charm during his draw step to buy the extra turn I needed. Won with three Valakuts on the board.
Game two he had double ruinblasters to keep me off of four mana and was able to beat me down with the little haste guys and a bloodbraid to 7 before i finally hit four mana and dropped an Elspeth. I cleaned up the board, but a siege gang with mana to activate it took me out.
Game three I countered an early rampant growth, which really messed up his tempo, giving me time to get a counter going on ruinblaster, which was probably the turning point of the match since I followed that up with liliana. Vess + an Esper Charm took care of his hand and Jace came down to lock up his draws until I stuck a sphinx to beat for the win.
Matches: 1-1, Games: 2-3
Round 3 vs. Raggi_Litli with u/w/b open the vaults control.
Game one he tried to run out a lost truths on t5, but I had a cancel ready and followed up with liliana on my own turn 5. He had another sphinx on turn six, but liliana and an Esper Charm put him on zero cards in hand. I pathed his sphinx, wrathed another one, then finished with liliana's ultimate for the win.
Game two I dropped an early scepter of fugue and went to town with it while i used the three tectonic edges i drew to keep him on 3 mana while I worked to empty his hand. He conceded once I hit enough lands to start attacking with tar pits.
Matches 2-1, Games 4-3
Round Four vs. dolly_d84 with Jund
Game one he fired off three blightnings, which were enough to effectively end the game.
Game two a t3 counter and t4 Elspeth set me up for a strong start, but a pair of ruinblasters kept him in the game. I used a pair of charms to empty his hand while I tried to find lands to rebuild my manabase. A treasure hunt flipped a few cards over, and Day of Judgment held off his comeback attempt of a Stag and Broodmate.
Game three I held off a ruinblaster with flashfreeze while he beat with a stag. Purge took care of an errant raging ravine while Charm again emptied his hand. The stag had me beaten down to five at this point, but a kiss of the amesha helped stabilize. I countered a blightning at 2 life and used edge to beat down his manabase. A sphinx started the beats and helped ponder, marsh flats, and treasure hunt to be more effective with my draws. Eventually I won the game at one life.
Final record Matches: 3-1, Games 6-4.
My main takeaways from this were that Esper Charm should mostly be used as discard against Jund, and I don't want more than two Smothers maindeck. Will look at filling the empty slot with an Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, or a Martial Coup.
The other main lesson was that Ponder/Hunt/Depths is an AMAZING draw engine. Really helps to keep you hand full, lots of lands coming while preventing flood. In some ways it's even better than Ponder/Brainstorm as a draw/search engine.
I'd also really, really like some kind of lifegain spell/effect that costs less than six mana to replace Kiss. If Reviving Dose or Renewed Faith were legal right now I'd be all over that action.
As always thoughts criticisms and critiques are welcome.
congrats. I like what you're doing with your lists, looks like ours are heading in the same direction. I tried Calcite Snapper and found him lacking as well. He's an amazing critter, but right now, there're so many things of lesser value that just either trade with or chump block him that I don't think you can get anything approaching full value out of him.
I'm now running an Elspeth and she's great. Honestly, it almost seems like Jace is my worst 'walker sometimes. I'm very happy with the one-of walker variety pack.
I've made done some heavy remodeling on my list because playing online I just couldn't seem to get my Jund matchup over 50% with the old version, and its just way too common in the q's to leave it to a coinflip.
So I cut Spreading Seas and revamped the draw package while adding a pair of Jwar Jwar's to the maindeck, mostly because its essentially an unsolvable creature for Jund.
The biggest thing is probably the mix of Ponder/Treasure Hunt as the primary draw engine. It's actually worked out very well for me, helping to find whatever cards I need exactly when i need them while keeping my land drops going.
I'd like to add a pair of O-rings to my list or board to help deal with walkers, though I'm unsure if pithing needle wouldn't be a better option out of the board since it also hits manlands. Mind Control is another card I'd like to have some of in my 75, mostly because right now there's a lot of critters worth stealing. I'm also still working out what anti-red/quick aggro hate I want in the board. Kiss of the Amesha is just amazing if you live to six mana - but thats the problem, living to six mana. Perimeter Captain helps you get there, but I end up wrathing him alot, or he just eats a terminate or gatekeeper or something else that would otherwise be dead (Searing Blaze, for example). Kor Firewalker is awesome, but hard to get down early with my manabase, which negates a lot of his value.
So right now this is my deck.
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana Vess
1x Sorin Markov
Counters
4x Cancel
2x Negate
Removal
3x Smother
3x Path to Exile
4x Day of Judgment
4x Tectonic Edge
Draw/Selection
4x Ponder
4x Treasure Hunt
4x Esper Charm
2x Halimar Depths
2x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Creeping Tar Pit
Lands
4x Arcane Sanctum
2x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Scepter of Fugue
3x Duress
3x Celestial Purge
3x Flashfreeze
3x Kiss of the Amesha
1x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
As usual, if you see a flaw or weakness or have a suggestion, feel free to point it out or make it. Thanks.
-2 Seer's Sundial
-1 Negate
-2 Punish Ignorance
-2 Halimar Depths
-1 Island
-2 Infest
+3 Marsh Flats
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+4 Cancel
+1 Mind Control
+1 Kiss of the Amesha
The Kiss and Mind Control are both experimental slots, and may end up getting changed into Jwar Jwars. If I make that change, I will strongly consider pulling the seas for turtles.
Thanks for the input, advice is always appreciated.
Current list after changes:
1x Sorin Markov
1x Liliana Vess
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Jace Beleren
Sorceries
4x Day of Judgment
1x Kiss of the Amesha
Enchantments
4x Spreading Seas
1x Mind Control
Instants
4x Cancel
4x Esper Charm
3x Negate
3x Path to Exile
3x Smother
2x Scepter of Fugue
Lands
4x Arcane Sanctum
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Marsh Flats
2x Halimar Depths
1x Island
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Celestial Purge
3x Luminarch Ascension
3x Flashfreeze
4x Duress
1x Scepter of Fugue
1x Kiss of the Amesha
3x Path to Exile
3x Smother
2x Infest
4x Day of Judgment
Counters
3x Negate
2x Punish Ignorance
Draw
4x Esper Charm
2x Seer's Sundial
Planeswalkers
2x Jace Beleren
1x Liliana Vess
2x Sorin Markov
4x Spreading Seas
4x Tectonic Edge
2x Scepter of Fugue
Beats
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Creeping Tar Pit
Lands
4x Halimar Depths
4x Arcane Sanctum
2x Island
2x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Duress
3x Luminarch Ascension
1x Scepter of Fugue
1x Infest
3x Flashfreeze
3x Celestial Purge
I'd absolutely love it if I could figure out a way to just touch Red mana so I could replace the Seer's Sundials with Ajani Vengeant's, but I don't think I can do so and still maintain a really stable manabase like i have.
Sundial draws an absolute TON of cards in a land heavy deck like this, and it doesn't die nearly as easily as 'walkers do, although it is also much less flexible.
I'm not married to Punish Ignorance, but the deck is hurting on lifegain, and that's one way to get it.
I've looked at Elspeth, but I don't think she really works that well in this particular deck. Mostly it seems like she'd draw attention to herself and turn my opponents' removal back on before I could make them discard it with vess/scepter.
If I did start running creatures in here, it would definitely be the Sphinx/Calcite shroud package, which I'm a big fan of. I just think that right now, with the manlands available and the large amount of removal being run in most decks, you're better off devoting those slots to more control elements. Though I could be wrong.
I'm open to suggestions on alterations - especially Punish Ignorance and Seer's Sundial - they're not bad, but they never stand out as being all stars either. Thanks.
4x Ruin Ghost
4x Grazing Gladehart
4x Oracle of Mul-Daya
4x Emeria Angel
2x Roil Elemental
2x Avenger of Zendikar
Sorceries
3x Treasure Hunt
4x Explore
Artifacts
3x Expedition Map
2x Seer's Sundial
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Stirring Wildwood
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Halimar Depths
1x Kabira Crossroads
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Khalni Garden
Basic Lands
2x Plains
2x Island
5x Forest
4x Luminarch Ascension
2x Roil Elemental
1x Avenger of Zendikar
4x Slingbow Trap
4x Day of Judgement
The sideboard is still very, very much under construction. Slingbow is good for vamps, and Ascension for control, beyond that, it's mostly filler. Although Roil Elemental has been really good against vamps since they're forced to burn all their removal on Gladeharts, Oracles, Angels, and Ghosts if they even want to have a chance to stay in the game.
Also, it may not look like it, but this deck draws a TON of cards. Most turns you'll draw/play 3-4 cards total, and if you've got a sundial out, the numbers get higher quickly. I have not yet tried out Admonition Angel or Rampaging Baloths, so I can't say whether or not they're better than what's already in here at the high cc landfall slots.
Ruin Ghost is really, really great here. He's a mix of Sensei's Divining Top, Mother of Runes, Kher Keep, and Gladehart, except that he also gives you a landfall trigger in addition to those other bonuses.
Expedition Map is nice for making sure you get the special land you need when you need it, and this deck doesn't tend to have mana problems.
I'm sure this isn't the ideal build, and maybe it's not even the right mix of colors (there's some pretty solid landfall in Black as well), but as an archetype, this definitely has some potential. Anyone interested in helping to move the decks' development forward is strongly encouraged to post their ideas here. Thanks.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Joraga Warcaller
4x Nissa's Chosen
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Leatherback Baloth
4x Nissa Revane
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorceries
4x Bestial Menace
Artifacts
2x Eldrazi Monument
Lands
4x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
14x Forest
4x Tectonic Edge
I'm still working out what the board needs/should be. The deck doesn't do anything fancy, it just fills up the board with huge dudes, then overruns via garruk or monument if pure beats don't go all the way.
Adam W.,
I'd lean more towards white or red as your splash color. they both provide manlands in addition to removal options.
fixed the relevant passage. I've looked at Ziggurat, but it just doesn't really seem necessary. The mana for this deck isn't hard to manage with only three colors and 8 mana critters. (five birds/nobles, three wood elves)
Titus, the 3/2 split on hierarch birds is due to evasiveness for equipment carrying. t1 birds, t2 sword, t3 attack is much more likely to connect than t1 noble, t2 swords, t3 attack. lategame birds are better equipment bearers while hierarchs are better pseudo-equipments themselves.
Yosei is sort of working out, it just seems like he could be better. I'll probably try 'lark at some point, but i'm not overly optimistic about it.
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Meddling Mage
3x Wood Elves
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Eternal Witness
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Arashi, the Sky Asunder
4x Mulldrifter
3x Yosei, the Morning Star
Sorceries
3x Primal Command
Enchantments
1x Glare of Subdual
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
Planeswalkers
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Ajani Goldmane
Lands
2x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
3x Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Temple Garden
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Plains
1x Island
3x Forest
4x Magus of the Moat
2x Arashi, the Sky Asunder
2x Bant Charm
1x Glare of Subdual
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Meddling Mage
3x Relic of Progenitus
Magus of the Moat looks like the jankiest thing ever, but it just ends the game vs. AIR* and Elf combo. Neither deck has anything approaching an answer to it. Also very strong vs. Dredge, although they do have answers to it via Dread Return.
*EDIT: AIR has a potential "out" to Magus in Demigod of Revenge. However, you have lots of flyers, draw, Meddling Mage, Glare, and Pro: Red swords to stop Demigod. So yes, AIR can theoretically kill you with one of four cards in their deck after Magus resolves, but it is highly unlikely. The same situation applies to Arc-Slogger.
The deck has been doing well, but there are some slots that seem like they could be improved. The two 'walkers - Ajani and Garruk can either be incredible or useless. Yosei also varies in usefulness, sometimes locking people down and othertimes being just kind of "not enough". Considering replacing him with Baneslayer. Interested in hearing others' thoughts on that.
Older versions of the deck attempted to abuse a Greater Good/Yosei/Emeria lock, but it was hard getting enough plains in play to make it relevant in time to matter. Also, that's a pretty slow combo. Miren, the Moaning Well is another card that's occasionally been good, but likely needs to go. A second Ghost Quarter would probably make a nice replacement for it.
Vitu-Ghazi, while awesome theoretically, has been rather lackluster in playing. Quite simply, the deck usually has lots of stuff to do with its mana besides spend five to make a 1/1. Windbrisk Heights is a card I've been wondering about in this deck for awhile now. It may be time to test it out, though I am concerned about running too many cipt lands.
The deck also used to run a few Wargates, and they performed a similar function to Chord of Calling in the old GhaziGlare decks. I ended up dropping them mainly because the deck seemed to run fine without them, although a few one-ofs in weird places are still around as a result of their previous inclusion. Selesnya Guildmage was included for a time, but it quickly became apparent that its time had passed.
Stoneforge Mystic is a card I'm interested in trying out. If I do, I'll probably change the swords up from 2x SoFI to a 1/1 sofi/sols split, and may add a singleton jitte as well.
Arashi does look weird as heck, but he's amazing vs. Faeries and does well vs. thopter tokens and other randomness.
Also considering replacing Wood Elves with either Farhaven Elf or Yavimaya Dryad. Farhaven can't get duals, and Yavimaya's CC may occasionally be a problem.
I've also looked at Momentary Blink and Reveillark in this deck, but they don't feel quite right to me.
A very light black splash for some portion of Doran/Makeshift Mannequin/Smother/Cranial/Persecute/Duress/Bitterblossom is tempting, but feels like it would be pushing the mana a step too far. Maybe Murmuring Bosk and Verdant Catacombs make it workable, but I have my doubts.
Tarmogoyf is absent because he generally doesn't get big in this deck. There are exactly three spells in the deck that aren't permanents - the Primal Commands. If your opponent isn't playing a deck designed to take advantage of Tarmogoyf, he'll never really get bigger than 2/3 or 3/4 in this deck, and that only later on in the game.
Saffi Eriksdotter, Spreading Seas, Shining Shoal and Adarkar Valkyrie are other random cards under consideration right now that didn't really fit into any of the above paragraphs.
I'm interested in hearing thoughts and feedback on this from others.
4x Ruin Ghost
4x Oracle of Mul-Daya
3x Avenger of Zendikar
Sorceries
4x Rampant Growth
4x Explore
4x Wargate
3x Treasure Hunt
Planeswalkers
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Ajani Vengeant
Enchantments
1x Terra Eternal
Lands
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Raging Ravine
2x Stirring Brush
1x Khalni Garden
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Kabira Crossroads
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Halimar Depths
1x Tectonic Edge
6x Forest
2x Plains
3x Island
2x Mountain
4x Day of Judgement
4x Pyroclasm
4x Captured Sunlight
3x Qasali Pridemage
The basic idea is to kick out a LOT of lands fast, then back them up with utility creatures and planeswalkers. Avenger of Zendikar makes for a brutal finishing army that instantly stops all ground attacks. With the included package of toolbox lands Ruin Ghost can impersonate Mother of Runes, Sensei's Divining Top, Selesnya Evangel, Tormod's Crypt, and Fountain of Youth. Plus he saves your manlands from removal until you can Wargate out Terra Eternal.
Jace is amazing with all the shuffle effects, and his unsummons can be pretty useful holding off aggro as well. Redjani does what Redjani does, which is great for this deck.
The deck runs 28 total lands and 16 cards that put extra lands into play (Oracle, Wargate, Rampant, Explore). Ideally you should always be kicking out a 1G spell on t2, although this won't always happen.
While this deck does have a lot going for it, there are some cautionary notes that should be sounded.
1) The inherent strategy of this deck is very strong against countermagic and control and midrange strategies, while being somewhat weak against fast aggro.
1b) Fast aggro makes up a significant portion of the meta right now.
2) No non-walker removal probably = fail on some level.
3) Tectonic Edge got printed.
4) No Chandra Nalaar, Garruk Wildspeaker, or Elspeth, Knight Errant. Those three cards all do things this deck wants. Especially the two girls.
5) No Baneslayer or Admonition angels.
Of course, there are some upsides too.
1) T4 Avengers of Zendikar.
2) Better card draw/advantage than almost anything else in the format.
3) Terra Eternal got printed.
4) Lots and lots of things that say "I win" if you untap with them in play.
5) Never lose a game to mana screw.
Thoughts, critiques, suggestions? This isn't the final version by a long shot, and I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on this.
I've been looking at all the cards coming in previews from WWK, and while we're just a bit over the halfway mark on spoiled cards, enough of a specific kind of card have been spoiled that it's possible to make at least an early draft of this type of deck. The concept is pretty basic, use the multitude of special lands in ZEN/WWK to make up the bulk of the deck with some support from cards that specifically benefit from lands.
4x Ruin Ghost
4x Grazing Gladeheart
3x Rampaging Baloths
3x Avenger of Zendikar
Sorceries
4x Explore
4x Rampant Growth
4x Wargate
4x Treasure Hunt
2x Banefire
Lands
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Raging Ravine
4x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
4x Halimar Depths
1x Kabira Crossroads
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Khalni Garden
1x white protection land
4x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Island
4x Admonition Angel
4x Emeria Angel
3x Terra Eternal
4x Day of Judgement
Obviously, that's a very rough draft and there are several important questions to answer. The sideboard is generally stuff I wanted maindeck but couldn't find room for.
The basic plan is to create massive card and mana advantage with the draw and ramp effects, while use Vastwood and Baloths/Avenger to create huge token swams, with a back up plan of Banefire (should be Comet Storm?) to the face and Wargate/Ruin Ghost acting as a powerful toolbox and repeatable effects bag. (in addition to landfall triggers and making manlands immortal, Ghost can impersonate Mother of Runes, Sensei's Divining Top, Fountain of Youth, Tormod's Crypt, and Kher Keep.)
However, there are still a few question to answer with this deck, namely:
1) With 20 etbt lands and 8 lands that come in untapped, is the deck too slow in the early turns?
2) Does the lack of removal cripple the deck?
3) Does the complete lack of a mainboard plan against flyers cripple the deck?
4) Is 28 lands enough? Should some spells be cut for more lands?
5) Are only 8 dual lands enough to support this decks' early mana development?
6) Is Grazing Gladeheart the right choice for lifegain? Should more lifegain lands or Captured Sunlight be run instead?
7) Should some sort of recursion be run in this deck alongside more basics and fetchlands (Grim Discovery type effects)?
8) Is Rampant Growth necessary with Explore and Wargate already present?
9) Are 8 manlands enough? Should more be run? If so, which ones?
I think that covers most of it. Pretty curious to see others' reax to this and thoughts on improving it. Definitely seems like it could have a lot of potential in standard, though again, my main concerns are the decks early game survivability vs. stuff like Bushwacker.
4x Pyromancer's Ascension
Sorceries
4x Rampant Growth
4x Reborn Hope
4x Captured Sunlight
4x Blightning
Instants
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Burst Lightning
4x Naya Charm
4x Bituminous Blast
4x Jungle Shrine
4x Savage Lands
4x Terramorphic Expanse
4x Forest
3x Mountain
3x Plains
2x Swamp
4x Blitz Hellion
4x Pyroclasm
4x Jund Charm
3x Luminarch Ascension
The deck wins by setting up recursive loops with ascended Reborn Hopes and Naya Charms returning multiple cards from gy to hand and burning people out while simultaneously emptying their hands with blightning. Burn, charm fogs, and lifegain keep you around long enough to pull this off.
Blitz Hellion is in the board in large part to help deal with Mill decks, and some control/combo variants, which otherwise kill you with Telemin Performance and counterspells.
Luminarch Ascension is for other control decks, Jund Charm for crypt decks and additional aggro hate, and 'clasm for fast aggro.
Cascade is really amazing in this deck. It helps to get the triggers on Pyromancer built up, then once it's active, the ascension will fire off copies of both the spell AND it's cascade copy. This means you get four spells for one. That's incredibly swingy. Insanely incredibly swingy. A sequence might go like this:
Captured Sunlight => Naya Charm, Gain 8 life, return Lightning Bolt and Blightning to hand, cast Bolt, kill two dudes. Net result, 5 mana, +8 life, -2 enemy dudes, -0 cards in hand.
The deck is a bit reliant on the Ascension, but I'm not really sure how to fix that without destroying its effectiveness. I really, really, really haven't missed Time Warp in this deck. The extra turns were just win more, and if you topdecked one, it just read: topdeck again. Whereas the recursive spells when topdecked read: fix whatevers wrong with the gamestate. Also, recurisve spells make it really easy to get counters on ascension. Two reborn hopes + WWGG = 2 counters on ascension.
Cascade has also proven a much more effective source of card advantage than the blue draw spells ever were. I have not tried Deny Reality in this deck yet, but its probably worth looking at at some point. The main thing I expect WWK to add to this deck is man land duals as a backup win condition. Which would be like amazing, because it would address this decks single biggest weakness.
So it's an evil corporation intent on taking over the world... and they actually have a realistic, viable plan to do so. DeWitt finished her bout of morality and went totally back to evil, except moreso. Nice. Reminiscent of Lindsey the lawyer from Angel in season 1.
Huge fan of alpha's "zombie plan". Was also nice to see the handlers generally holding their own. These guys were all recruited for being badass mofos, so its nice to see them not just wuss out.
combined with last weeks two episodes the shows heading for a strong finish it seems.. if there was time to write and shoot one before the axe. This is a tough show in a lot of ways, and frankly it probably would have worked a LOT better as a graphic novel or comic book series, but still, gotta salute the ambition in trying to pull this off as a weekly tv series.