The deck doesn't do much with infinite colorless, but a signet or gilded lotus makes infinite colors, and then you can just cast whatever you want. But Sol Ring came out when Tidespout Tyrant came in for me anyway, so I never had to experience the sorrow of infinite colorless and nothing to do with it.
I think what you really need are multiple lower powered decks. If you don't deliberately play poorly, you're still going to win more often than them, and if you play the same deck with them each time, their pattern recognition will focus on the cards beating them rather than the skilled plays. If you want them properly introduced to the game without stomping on them every game, you'll need to play different colors and strategies all down to their level. Otherwise, they'll see you win and imitate what you're doing, which is even worse when you're playing bad decks on purpose.
That distinction works exactly like in the Bloodbond March setup. It might be possible to replace psychic battle with something else as well, but some distinction between the layers is necessary.
You're right. A bunch of Psychic Battles and a bunch of Possibility Storms in that setup goes infinite just by using 1 mana to bounce 2 creatures to discard for 2 mana and get them both back, so some adjustment needs to be made. But it's probably a lot easier to keep a million Psychic Battles and just make the targeting ability in such a way that it can only target the one thing we want to bounce up and down.
Now for the more important part: a flexible amount of Ackermann stages. The idea is to have one stage where you have 1 life whenever you work on it, one stage where you have 2 life, ... , one with 24 life and so on, right? (using life as an example)
Transitioning form the 2 life stage to the one life stage is done by spending one life to draw the dark ritual and casting it from hand to get a lot of black mana. After going through the 1 life stage you want to gett back into the 2 life stage, so you use the fact that you cast that dark ritual from hand to replenish one life. You continue on in the 2 life stage until its time to get into the 1 life stage again, at which point you pay that life again.
But what is stopping you from reclaiming the life of that Dark Ritual cast immediately, before going through the 1 life stage? You could do that as often as you want and build up an arbitrary amount of mana. I think in addition to reclaiming the life at the point in the stack where you cast dark ritual from hand you also need to make it a requirement that you clear the mana pool whenever you do so. I'd be surprised if there is a way to do that.
I like the concept of all the stages working to increase the number of Possibility Storm and converting that into the input for the stage only in the transitions. My previous attempts to get a variable amount of stages always had the stage produce the input for the next stage directly. This seems easier to work with. Although thinking about it that also requires some mechanism to ensure that the transition can only be used in the lowest layer of the N life stage, and only a limited amount of times per resolution of that layer. That is because the possibility storms don't actually get converted into mana, but remain on the battlefield. So repeatedly going through the 1 life stage without working on the 2 life stage in between would result in going infinite. Maybe you need to spend a psychic battle trigger as well as a life to draw that dark ritual. But then you need to make sure that the trigger used is really from the 2 life stage and not from the 1 life stage... gaahr
Thinking about repeating Ackermann stages I always get bogged down in mechanics like that until it gets way too complicated to be found in actual cards.
The problem of clearing the mana pool might be too hard, but if you can use tokens as a resource for powering the stage maybe the transition can force a Dual Nature trigger. (That might be just me thinking too close to the current deck instead of being properly creative.)
Drawing from Yawgmoth's Bargain is almost certainly not going to work as the actual thing because life is too fluid a resource, it was just the easiest explanation in my mind for a process that hasn't actually been invented yet. Right now, I really am putting most of my hope into casting a buyback sorcery into Possibility Storm into Mind's Desire to cast a ritual a bunch of times because all the storm copies have to resolve as a batch process before Mind's Desire leaves the stack and is accessible again. And buyback costs actually needing to be paid puts a natural limit on how many times it can be done.
Ok, I've been suffering over this one in silence long enough to forsake my ego and ask for help.
I'm still in my mind doing Ackermann explosions with Possibility Storm, but it is a hell of a lot easier than I was making it. All the cards left over from my non-Ackermann list were just interference. It's really very simple to imitate the basic Bloodbond March setup with Possibility Storm. You just need Omniscience, Cowardice, something to target (I'll use Rats of Rath as an example), something to make mana off of discarding (Skirge Familiar), Wheel of Sun and Moon, and a ton of Possibility Storms. Likely use the good old Opalescence/Doubling Season/Dual Nature combination for that. So skipping the set-up and going straight to the Ackermann part:
Cast a creature or enchantment, get a pile of Possibility Storm triggers
First trigger finds nothing, puts the spell you cast into the library
Second trigger casts the spell you cast, puts it into play.
Pay 1 black into Rats of Rath to target it and return it to your hand
[Possibly cast it again to make the skack grow]
Discard the card to make 1 black with Skirge Familiar
Wheel of Sun and Moon puts it back into the deck where the next Possibility Storm trigger finds it
It's really just a direct conversion of the Bloodbond March Ackermann set-up, so nothing groundbreaking about it. And it even comes with a steep downside that Possibility Storm does not discriminate between cards of the same card type, so strings of things that can only target one direction in the chain won't work because Possibility Storm provides an avenue by which one creature can be cast to get more of another regardless of its position in the chain.
BUT! What Possibility Storm does that Bloodbond March doesn't is interact with all the other card types. For example, with a lot of Possibility Storms out and Wheel of Sun and Moon enchanting you, any instant or sorcery can by cast repeatedly proportional to the Possibility Storms. Adding in a simple Dark Ritual to the above scenario will trigger each Possibility Storm, and then every trigger after the first will find Dark Ritual, cast it, and upon resolving it goes back into the library from Wheel of Sun and Moon to be found by the next Possibility Storm. At the end, it's stuck in the library, and any limited method of drawing it back out would let you do it again.
I want to Ackermann that draw. If we could find a limited way to spend a resource redrawing an instant or sorcery and replenish the resource only once for each time we cast it from our hand, we could hit a new high. If, for example, there was a safe way to use Dark Ritual as the instant and redraw it only as many times as we cast it from hand -1, each casting of Dark Ritual would make black mana for each Possibility Storm, effectively transitioning the creature Ackermann to itself, so if the redraw mechanism was something like Yawgmoth's Bargain and limited life gain, there'd be a stack of Ackermann stages equal to the amount of life we started with. And that could be way more than the 25 or so you have right now. We'd have Ackermann'd the Ackermann.
But I haven't figured out how to do that yet. I'm pretty confident a way to do it exists, though, especially since artifacts, planeswalkers, and lands are free space. And the creature targeting method is flexible, and any instant or sorcery that makes a resource is an option. The most interesting thing I've found so far is spells with additional costs need to have their additional cost paid, or like an instant with buyback could be used to dig a ritual out of the deck and then be bought back if we could only pay the buyback in a limited way. I've considered things like eggs that redraw themselves but need colored mana to do it, or maybe something silly with Strionic Resonator. I've heavily considered Mind's Desire, as with one Possibility Storm, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the storm count from getting Omniscience, Leyline of Anticipation, Possibility Storm, and Wheel of Sun and Moon on board in the first place, Mind's Desire could hit itself on each of its storm from hand copies and empty the entire deck without need for any mass draw effect. I even spent a day trying to work Mizzium Transreliquat in as a way to restrict timing by making only the colorless mana plentifully available. But this is where I'm stuck.
Yeah, that was the deck I was referring to. The first time I decided to build a Zedruu deck was having an enchantments only build. It fared pretty well but it was basically a one-trick pony. I like your deck however in that it can do multiple things and in particular sends Zedruu in the red zone - which is something complete unexpected of Goat Girl.
I mean, if you want red zone goat lady, I cannot recommend this thread enough.
The deck can be played in a way that limits the infinite combos. You can always choose to pass the turn, after all. I've enjoyed each game I've played with this deck, even when I don't win, because I usually pull off some silly madness that gives me the satisfaction I get from playing Magic. I achieved a kill by going nuts with Jeskai Ascendancy and Possibility Storm getting Zedruu up to 13 and 12 power (had an extra turn with Temporal Trespass).
Also, to make this deck infinite free would take a lot more work than expected because of what happens when you start looking for 5 card loops. For example, it's possible to go infinite with a flash enabler, Time Spiral, Mirror of Fate, Mind's Desire, and Possibility Storm all stacked together in some insane way.
As far as non-infinite wonky synergies, Repercussion is an excellent candidate for some nonsense. Magus of the Wheel has potential as discussed above. I've recently wondered what I could do with Eye of the Storm and heroic triggers. Sphinx's Tutelage really does mill the hell out of people. Rite of Replication on Hamletback Goliath results in some thousands of +1/+1 counters. My Enduring Ideal win was usually to stick Infinite Reflection on a Warstorm Surge. Seriously, I put Barren Glory in the deck to end a combo I ended up cutting and it still works. As long as you keep all the card drawing and mana making/cheating, you can get away with just about anything.
If the deck had a way to give haste, you could do goofy stuff with Eye of the Storm, Rite of Replication, and Magus of the Wheel. Get a Turnabout in there for the extra mana and chain instants and sorceries together. That actually reminds me of a goofy idea I had once that involved using Insurrection in Eye of the Storm as a way to repeatedly untap creatures and also incidentally give them haste. So if you get out Eye of the Storm, cast Insurrection with animated lands or mana rocks or mana dorks of some kind that will give mana back, and then put in Rite of Replication hitting Magus of the Wheel, and then wheel through the entire library until you mill your opponents out, it would be an outstandingly flashy victory. It would actually be a satisfyingly perfect infinite with Mirror of Fate and Rest in Peace, as you could use the Mirror to put 7 back including something from under the Eye, draw 7 with a Magus, and then cast the instant or sorcery to clone a Magus.
I want to say that is far too much of an adjustment to the deck, but it is actually only 2 cards that aren't already in here. Maybe there should be a "things I haven't done but have been discussed and are funny" section in the first post.
Funny you should mention that, I'm considering slotting Day's Undoing in place of Temporal Cascade in the "I've ended the game with everything exiled but Barren Glory on like 10 different occasions, and now I'm ready to try different shenanigans update."
I don't know if I'll like Day's Undoing, but I know if it works well in any deck, it'll work well here. I've got double flash enabling, I'd got double draw doubling, I've got the moxen that can play it on like turn 1. But we'll see. I'm gonna try it (since I think my friend implied he was going to bring me one.)
I have thoroughly enjoyed this deck, and I feel like I learn more each time I play it.
Me too. Playing with these goofy cards has made me grow as a magic player, and growing as a magic player, I've made this deck even better at nonsense. And at this point I'm really confident that the backbone of the deck can support any silly win condition, so I hope at some point you start trying out your own silly win conditions.
You're right. A bunch of Psychic Battles and a bunch of Possibility Storms in that setup goes infinite just by using 1 mana to bounce 2 creatures to discard for 2 mana and get them both back, so some adjustment needs to be made. But it's probably a lot easier to keep a million Psychic Battles and just make the targeting ability in such a way that it can only target the one thing we want to bounce up and down.
Drawing from Yawgmoth's Bargain is almost certainly not going to work as the actual thing because life is too fluid a resource, it was just the easiest explanation in my mind for a process that hasn't actually been invented yet. Right now, I really am putting most of my hope into casting a buyback sorcery into Possibility Storm into Mind's Desire to cast a ritual a bunch of times because all the storm copies have to resolve as a batch process before Mind's Desire leaves the stack and is accessible again. And buyback costs actually needing to be paid puts a natural limit on how many times it can be done.
It's not even catering to the demographic anymore. My mother owns the Avengers on dvd and I didn't even bother to see it.
What is this in reference to?
I'm still in my mind doing Ackermann explosions with Possibility Storm, but it is a hell of a lot easier than I was making it. All the cards left over from my non-Ackermann list were just interference. It's really very simple to imitate the basic Bloodbond March setup with Possibility Storm. You just need Omniscience, Cowardice, something to target (I'll use Rats of Rath as an example), something to make mana off of discarding (Skirge Familiar), Wheel of Sun and Moon, and a ton of Possibility Storms. Likely use the good old Opalescence/Doubling Season/Dual Nature combination for that. So skipping the set-up and going straight to the Ackermann part:
Cast a creature or enchantment, get a pile of Possibility Storm triggers
First trigger finds nothing, puts the spell you cast into the library
Second trigger casts the spell you cast, puts it into play.
Pay 1 black into Rats of Rath to target it and return it to your hand
[Possibly cast it again to make the skack grow]
Discard the card to make 1 black with Skirge Familiar
Wheel of Sun and Moon puts it back into the deck where the next Possibility Storm trigger finds it
It's really just a direct conversion of the Bloodbond March Ackermann set-up, so nothing groundbreaking about it. And it even comes with a steep downside that Possibility Storm does not discriminate between cards of the same card type, so strings of things that can only target one direction in the chain won't work because Possibility Storm provides an avenue by which one creature can be cast to get more of another regardless of its position in the chain.
BUT! What Possibility Storm does that Bloodbond March doesn't is interact with all the other card types. For example, with a lot of Possibility Storms out and Wheel of Sun and Moon enchanting you, any instant or sorcery can by cast repeatedly proportional to the Possibility Storms. Adding in a simple Dark Ritual to the above scenario will trigger each Possibility Storm, and then every trigger after the first will find Dark Ritual, cast it, and upon resolving it goes back into the library from Wheel of Sun and Moon to be found by the next Possibility Storm. At the end, it's stuck in the library, and any limited method of drawing it back out would let you do it again.
I want to Ackermann that draw. If we could find a limited way to spend a resource redrawing an instant or sorcery and replenish the resource only once for each time we cast it from our hand, we could hit a new high. If, for example, there was a safe way to use Dark Ritual as the instant and redraw it only as many times as we cast it from hand -1, each casting of Dark Ritual would make black mana for each Possibility Storm, effectively transitioning the creature Ackermann to itself, so if the redraw mechanism was something like Yawgmoth's Bargain and limited life gain, there'd be a stack of Ackermann stages equal to the amount of life we started with. And that could be way more than the 25 or so you have right now. We'd have Ackermann'd the Ackermann.
But I haven't figured out how to do that yet. I'm pretty confident a way to do it exists, though, especially since artifacts, planeswalkers, and lands are free space. And the creature targeting method is flexible, and any instant or sorcery that makes a resource is an option. The most interesting thing I've found so far is spells with additional costs need to have their additional cost paid, or like an instant with buyback could be used to dig a ritual out of the deck and then be bought back if we could only pay the buyback in a limited way. I've considered things like eggs that redraw themselves but need colored mana to do it, or maybe something silly with Strionic Resonator. I've heavily considered Mind's Desire, as with one Possibility Storm, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and the storm count from getting Omniscience, Leyline of Anticipation, Possibility Storm, and Wheel of Sun and Moon on board in the first place, Mind's Desire could hit itself on each of its storm from hand copies and empty the entire deck without need for any mass draw effect. I even spent a day trying to work Mizzium Transreliquat in as a way to restrict timing by making only the colorless mana plentifully available. But this is where I'm stuck.
Any ideas?
I mean, if you want red zone goat lady, I cannot recommend this thread enough.
Just wait until the magical day you get to Mirrorweave Possibility Storm. Don't mind me, I'm just casting this
Copy Enchantmentevery enchantment in the deck for 3 mana.Also, to make this deck infinite free would take a lot more work than expected because of what happens when you start looking for 5 card loops. For example, it's possible to go infinite with a flash enabler, Time Spiral, Mirror of Fate, Mind's Desire, and Possibility Storm all stacked together in some insane way.
As far as non-infinite wonky synergies, Repercussion is an excellent candidate for some nonsense. Magus of the Wheel has potential as discussed above. I've recently wondered what I could do with Eye of the Storm and heroic triggers. Sphinx's Tutelage really does mill the hell out of people. Rite of Replication on Hamletback Goliath results in some thousands of +1/+1 counters. My Enduring Ideal win was usually to stick Infinite Reflection on a Warstorm Surge. Seriously, I put Barren Glory in the deck to end a combo I ended up cutting and it still works. As long as you keep all the card drawing and mana making/cheating, you can get away with just about anything.
I want to say that is far too much of an adjustment to the deck, but it is actually only 2 cards that aren't already in here. Maybe there should be a "things I haven't done but have been discussed and are funny" section in the first post.
I don't know if I'll like Day's Undoing, but I know if it works well in any deck, it'll work well here. I've got double flash enabling, I'd got double draw doubling, I've got the moxen that can play it on like turn 1. But we'll see. I'm gonna try it (since I think my friend implied he was going to bring me one.)
Me too. Playing with these goofy cards has made me grow as a magic player, and growing as a magic player, I've made this deck even better at nonsense. And at this point I'm really confident that the backbone of the deck can support any silly win condition, so I hope at some point you start trying out your own silly win conditions.
Horobi, Death's Wail on an enchantment?
Dismiss Into Dream in black!