Perhaps it's already been mentioned, but what about Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed? It seems to be a natural inclusion for what you want to do with the focus on including more recursion for the deck.
Hey there, ben! Thanks for taking the time to comment!
So as far as Xiahou is concerned, I did run him previously, but I was concerned about the cost and timing of using him. If I needed a Damnation out of the graveyard that turn or lose, it would be an 8-cost board wipe.
But maybe I passed him over too quickly. He definitely has good synergy with the deck since he can recur non-creature spells, and would be pretty good with Lifeline, although we’d only be able to get back one card per turn, but we would mitigate the cost of having to cast him or use our reanimation spells on him.
Was there something in the list you saw that you feel would be safe to remove?
Hey there! I just wanted to say great job on the list. I’ve taken quite a bit of inspiration from your list; I’ve adopted a bit of your protection suite. Keep up the good work!
With the full spoiler up now, it's safe to say we may have a few goodies coming our way.
Benthic Biomancer: I'm not completely sold on this guy here, but there is some potential. Play on turn 1, adapt on turn 2, and then loot. It would be a better Fathom Sage as it comes down much sooner, but it doesn't trigger for each counter put on it the way Fathom does.
Incubation Druid: A new mana dork that has synergy with +1/+1 counters! Comes down on turn 2, maybe turn 1, and can generate either U or G. Once it has a +1/+1 counter on it, which can come from anywhere, it produces UUU or GGG. Seems pretty good in here.
Prime Speaker Vannifar: Birthing Pod has found a body, and on an Elf (Oooze Wizard) no less! Already has synergy built in with the other elves, triggers Ezuri, and is a second pod for the deck. There are ways to exploit her to get a win right away, but we are just using her for value for Ezuri.
Simic Ascendancy: This would be another win condition for the deck. Anytime a +1/+1 counter is put on a creature, we can put that many growth counters on it. With Shrieking Drake and Earthcraft, we can easily get to 20 counters. The only downfall is that it triggers on our upkeep, so we have to hope it will stick around for a whole turn cycle.
Removing these particular mana dorks as they are subpar compared to the others. Adding in Sage of Fables and Glen Elendra Archmage for their synergy with the deck, but also with each other, as Glen will come back with a +1/+1 counter which will negate the persist counter; makes her a great blocker and good at counter things, provided you have the mana.
After playing the deck with the last changes, I have found out something: Insidious Dreams is only really good when Entreat the Dead is still in the deck, and we have creatures in our hand to help set it up. Otherwise, it’s a sub-par tutor card. I wanted to make the deck more resilient to board wipes, so I decided to up the reanimation spells to include Dance of the Dead, Goryo’s Vengeance, Rescue from the Underworld, and Yawgmoth’s Will (which allows us to play even more cards). I also added in other combo creatures in Su-Chi, to help against ETB hate, and Marionette Master, which can win games on her own.
I took out Abhorrent Overlord so we don’t have too many combo creatures, Massacre Wurm got cut simply because Demon of Dark Schemes also reanimates, Oblivion Strike so we don’t take a turn off to remove a creature, and Makeshift Mannequin since the creature can be easily removed by just targeting it. Probably the most controversial cut I made was to remove Sheoldred, Whispering One. She was definitely a hard cut, but she does paint a significant target on her head when she comes out. We mainly used her to reanimate our creatures, and there was a good chance she would be taken care of before it got back to our turn. I opted to remove her for more one-shot reanimation spells in order to hopefully get the curve lowered and give us more shots with other spells.
I'd probably prefer return over crush. I'm not 100% sure I would run either of them tbh given all the answers you've got.
Overall in looking at it I think your curve is a bit high to not be running the more busted rock package (mana vault, grim monolith, basalt monolith, voltaic key, tezzeret). Probably look to shave on the high end.
Also Gilded Drake probably too good not to run especially since you don't seem to have any budget constraints.
I didn't even think of those; they are definitely spicy in here. What's more important: exiling any combination of artifacts/enchantments, or being easier to cast and only hitting one of each?
I had to do a second take with Ami. She exiles a permanent I own, so is REALLY good with Gilded Drake. I will definitely include that. Any ideas for a possible cut for him? I'm almost thinking Sepulchral Primordial; I already cut Luminate Primordial and Diluvian Primordial in the early testings of the deck.
For reference, this is what I'm testing on Xmage; if I end up buying into paper, the OG duals and fetches are probably gonna be swapped for subpar lands for the time being. The rest of the deck would stay intact.
How has Goryo’s Vengeance worked for you? The exile clause won’t effect Gonti much, but if you run any other legendaries, it doesn’t seem that great without a sac outlet, unless you don’t mind losing them?
Its not the end of the world and to be honest.... most of my single target rez I play with the thought of Gonti as what I am probably rezing. There are obviously other things I will rez given some different situations but thats sort of what I am playing him for. Even if he is exiled.... so what I will just cast him from command zone later.
Understandable. I think I will pick up Goryo's and a few more cards to test out and see how they go.
How has Goryo’s Vengeance worked for you? The exile clause won’t effect Gonti much, but if you run any other legendaries, it doesn’t seem that great without a sac outlet, unless you don’t mind losing them?
The idea I kind of had was just turning him over a bunch with single spot rez while having some mass loop options as well. When you are turning Gonti over frequently then suddenly the idea of drawing a card as well for each of these 1-2 mana rez spells suddenly generates card advantage in that they replace themselves + get you a card from someone else.
I haven't played my rebuild enough to say if thats working for me yet or not though.
What spot rez spells are you playing, if I may ask?
Krav definitely seems like a good card. Draws cards and gains you life instead of losing it; something that black doesn't do very often it seems. I'm not sure if I run enough creatures to make him useful, or if it's even on theme with ETBs.
I'm honestly having some difficulties deciding whether I want to keep with my current theme of ETB/reanimator, or go a different route. I've played him in a MBC shell before, with things like Contamination/Bitterblossom and Triskelion/Mikaeus, the Unhallowed/Phyrexian Devourer, but I really didn't have as much fun with that version.
I'm very hesitant about using wipes like these. I ran O-Stone and Nev Disk for a short time, and while they did do what they were supposed to do, they also took out my board full of goodies. Then it would take multiple tutors to set back up if I even could.
I may have to take a step back and do a lot more reevaluating than I originally thought. The deck runs pretty good right now as it is, but maybe I do need to take a different approach and cut some of the cute things like Undying Evil/Supernatural Stamina and go for more direct reanimation spells. Maybe even try to lower the curve a bit if I can.
I ended said game by looping Meteor Golem with Panharmonicon in play blowing out my opponents defenses and swinging with a bunch of random dudes while using Crypt Ghast to soften them up.
You must be more of a control-ish deck then, instead of ETB abusing? I'm definitely interested in seeing a list, but I'm not sure I can move away from the ETBs. Lol.
Were you looping via Lifeline or Deathmanthle/Altar?
I am often a fan of Oblivion Stone and potentially Boompile in MBC shells. The ability to sweep things you normally can't interact with seems good to me. Boompile is a card that doesn't get much love but what I really like about it is that opponents need to respond before they see the outcome of if it will pop or not. That means things like regeneration and sac outlets can often be awkward for opponents in that you sort of have to prepair for both outcome options before you get to know which one is happening.
Even just having a single out in this type of deck means that you can potentially draw into a tutor and find your way out.
I'm very hesitant about using wipes like these. I ran O-Stone and Nev Disk for a short time, and while they did do what they were supposed to do, they also took out my board full of goodies. Then it would take multiple tutors to set back up if I even could.
I may have to take a step back and do a lot more reevaluating than I originally thought. The deck runs pretty good right now as it is, but maybe I do need to take a different approach and cut some of the cute things like Undying Evil/Supernatural Stamina and go for more direct reanimation spells. Maybe even try to lower the curve a bit if I can.
I am spinning a Gonti list back up. I kind of went from scratch without looking at any lists when I was putting it back together just so I could kind of see what it would look like starting from scratch after not touching it for a few years. I will see if I can get my list up sometime soon.
Looking at what I am putting together in contrast with what you have though, I feel like I smaller curve with a little more draw and potentially a little more ramp than your current list. I will see if I can get my list finalized and put together here soon.
I would definitely be interested in seeing your list again.
I pretty much just went all-in on the ETB theme, so more or less wasn't too worried about my curve. Average CMC is 3.65, so it's not too terrible since I don't play in an overly competitive meta.
My one issue that was brought up in another discussion was Torpor Orb. This pretty much shuts down the deck, as I generally generate the infinite mana via ETB token makers, and Gary is an ETB win condition. So I would most likely have to keep Kokusho in here, and utilize Wurmcoil and possibly Su-Chi as an on-death way to generate infinite mana and win with on-death instead of ETB? Hmm...
Hey there, ben! Thanks for taking the time to comment!
So as far as Xiahou is concerned, I did run him previously, but I was concerned about the cost and timing of using him. If I needed a Damnation out of the graveyard that turn or lose, it would be an 8-cost board wipe.
But maybe I passed him over too quickly. He definitely has good synergy with the deck since he can recur non-creature spells, and would be pretty good with Lifeline, although we’d only be able to get back one card per turn, but we would mitigate the cost of having to cast him or use our reanimation spells on him.
Was there something in the list you saw that you feel would be safe to remove?
With the full spoiler up now, it's safe to say we may have a few goodies coming our way.
Benthic Biomancer: I'm not completely sold on this guy here, but there is some potential. Play on turn 1, adapt on turn 2, and then loot. It would be a better Fathom Sage as it comes down much sooner, but it doesn't trigger for each counter put on it the way Fathom does.
Incubation Druid: A new mana dork that has synergy with +1/+1 counters! Comes down on turn 2, maybe turn 1, and can generate either U or G. Once it has a +1/+1 counter on it, which can come from anywhere, it produces UUU or GGG. Seems pretty good in here.
Prime Speaker Vannifar: Birthing Pod has found a body, and on an Elf (Oooze Wizard) no less! Already has synergy built in with the other elves, triggers Ezuri, and is a second pod for the deck. There are ways to exploit her to get a win right away, but we are just using her for value for Ezuri.
Simic Ascendancy: This would be another win condition for the deck. Anytime a +1/+1 counter is put on a creature, we can put that many growth counters on it. With Shrieking Drake and Earthcraft, we can easily get to 20 counters. The only downfall is that it triggers on our upkeep, so we have to hope it will stick around for a whole turn cycle.
Realistically, I'm probably only going to consider Incubation Druid and Prime Speaker Vannifar unless we get some good synergy cards in the third set.
========================================
1-13-19:
OUT:
Bloom Tender
Gyre Sage
IN:
Sage of Fables
Glen Elendra Archmage
Removing these particular mana dorks as they are subpar compared to the others. Adding in Sage of Fables and Glen Elendra Archmage for their synergy with the deck, but also with each other, as Glen will come back with a +1/+1 counter which will negate the persist counter; makes her a great blocker and good at counter things, provided you have the mana.
========================================
I'm also considering trying out the following:
Duskwatch Recruiter: We can use him to search for Sage of Hours, or whatever creature we need.
Mausoleum Wanderer: Cheap protection. Can get better when we stack on some counters.
Siren Stormtamer: More cheap protection.
Options for removal:
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Marwyn, the Nurturer
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Rishkar, Peema Renegade
Thrummingbird
OUT:
Abhorrent Overlord
Insidious Dreams
Makeshift Mannequin
Massacre Wurm
Oblivion Strike
Sheoldred, Whispering One
IN:
Dance of the Dead
Goryo’s Vengeance
Marionette Master
Rescue from the Underworld
Su-Chi
Yawgmoth’s Will
After playing the deck with the last changes, I have found out something: Insidious Dreams is only really good when Entreat the Dead is still in the deck, and we have creatures in our hand to help set it up. Otherwise, it’s a sub-par tutor card. I wanted to make the deck more resilient to board wipes, so I decided to up the reanimation spells to include Dance of the Dead, Goryo’s Vengeance, Rescue from the Underworld, and Yawgmoth’s Will (which allows us to play even more cards). I also added in other combo creatures in Su-Chi, to help against ETB hate, and Marionette Master, which can win games on her own.
I took out Abhorrent Overlord so we don’t have too many combo creatures, Massacre Wurm got cut simply because Demon of Dark Schemes also reanimates, Oblivion Strike so we don’t take a turn off to remove a creature, and Makeshift Mannequin since the creature can be easily removed by just targeting it. Probably the most controversial cut I made was to remove Sheoldred, Whispering One. She was definitely a hard cut, but she does paint a significant target on her head when she comes out. We mainly used her to reanimate our creatures, and there was a good chance she would be taken care of before it got back to our turn. I opted to remove her for more one-shot reanimation spells in order to hopefully get the curve lowered and give us more shots with other spells.
So, I've made the following changes:
OUT:
IN:
I lowered the curve a little bit, added more tutors and more/better rocks. Also added Altar of the Brood as a win condition with Felidar Guardian/Aminatou, the Fateshifter.
Do I need more dedicated win conditions, or just try to outvalue everyone else and/or repeatedly blinking Reality Acid?
I didn't even think of those; they are definitely spicy in here. What's more important: exiling any combination of artifacts/enchantments, or being easier to cast and only hitting one of each?
I had to do a second take with Ami. She exiles a permanent I own, so is REALLY good with Gilded Drake. I will definitely include that. Any ideas for a possible cut for him? I'm almost thinking Sepulchral Primordial; I already cut Luminate Primordial and Diluvian Primordial in the early testings of the deck.
For reference, this is what I'm testing on Xmage; if I end up buying into paper, the OG duals and fetches are probably gonna be swapped for subpar lands for the time being. The rest of the deck would stay intact.
3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
//Creatures (22):
2 Baleful Strix
2 Gilded Drake
2 Wall of Omens
3 Auramancer
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Spellseeker
3 Trinket Mage
4 Archaeomancer
4 Brago, King Eternal
4 Clever Impersonator
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
4 Ravenous Chupacabra
4 Restoration Angel
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 Cloudblazer
5 Karmic Guide
5 Mulldrifter
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
6 Duplicant
6 Sun Titan
8 Ashen Rider
//Artifacts (13):
0 Mana Crypt
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Azorius Signet
2 Dimir Signet
2 Grim Monolith
2 Mind Stone
2 Orzhov Signet
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Chromatic Lantern
4 Panharmonicon
5 Conjurer's Closet
1 Reanimate
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Buried Alive
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Supreme Verdict
6 Austere Command
6 Merciless Eviction
//Instants (13):
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Swan Song
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Arcane Denial
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Anguished Unmaking
3 Corpse Dance
3 Eerie Interlude
3 Ghostway
3 Teferi's Protection
4 Utter End
//Enchantments (6):
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Act of Authority
3 Necromancy
3 Reality Acid
5 Oath of Teferi
//Planeswalkers (2):
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
5 Venser, the Sojourner
//Lands (36):
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
5 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Sunken Hollow
5 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
Understandable. I think I will pick up Goryo's and a few more cards to test out and see how they go.
I appreciate the discussion as well!
What spot rez spells are you playing, if I may ask?
Currently, I'm running:
And am thinking about the possibility of these:
I really wish Recurring Nightmare was legal.
I'm honestly having some difficulties deciding whether I want to keep with my current theme of ETB/reanimator, or go a different route. I've played him in a MBC shell before, with things like Contamination/Bitterblossom and Triskelion/Mikaeus, the Unhallowed/Phyrexian Devourer, but I really didn't have as much fun with that version.
You must be more of a control-ish deck then, instead of ETB abusing? I'm definitely interested in seeing a list, but I'm not sure I can move away from the ETBs. Lol.
Were you looping via Lifeline or Deathmanthle/Altar?
I'm very hesitant about using wipes like these. I ran O-Stone and Nev Disk for a short time, and while they did do what they were supposed to do, they also took out my board full of goodies. Then it would take multiple tutors to set back up if I even could.
I may have to take a step back and do a lot more reevaluating than I originally thought. The deck runs pretty good right now as it is, but maybe I do need to take a different approach and cut some of the cute things like Undying Evil/Supernatural Stamina and go for more direct reanimation spells. Maybe even try to lower the curve a bit if I can.
I would definitely be interested in seeing your list again.
I pretty much just went all-in on the ETB theme, so more or less wasn't too worried about my curve. Average CMC is 3.65, so it's not too terrible since I don't play in an overly competitive meta.
My one issue that was brought up in another discussion was Torpor Orb. This pretty much shuts down the deck, as I generally generate the infinite mana via ETB token makers, and Gary is an ETB win condition. So I would most likely have to keep Kokusho in here, and utilize Wurmcoil and possibly Su-Chi as an on-death way to generate infinite mana and win with on-death instead of ETB? Hmm...